Police brutality, or brat deserved it??

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Brutality or deserved?

  • brutality

  • deserved


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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
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http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/apd-report-women-at-926236.html?cxtype=rss_news

This ajc.com seems to be a good place to get what's going on.

I'm still not saying that the cop wasn't perhaps heavy-handed and that he couldn't have handled the situation better at more than one point, but the women are clearly at fault here.

From your linked article:

Atlanta Police Officer Jose Vidal’s arrest report said he saw three women -- later identified as Freeman, Chancey and Caban -- sit in a booth directly behind him.

"I heard Freeman yelling at another booth," Vidal wrote in the report. According to the report, Vidal told Freeman not to talk so loud and said she would have to leave if she continued to do so.

Freeman and Caban told the officer "they weren't doing anything," the report said.

According to Vidal's report, when he told the women they needed to leave, "Freeman replied ‘I ain't going anywhere,' and she was going to call the real police."

In Vidal's report, he said he told Freeman he was the real police and placed her under arrest.
Well, he tried to place her under arrest and she resisted. Bad move on her part to defiantly refuse to leave, and worse move on her part to resist arrest. Then the other female "brat" felt she needed to get involved.

Drunken "brat" entitlement mentality doesn't play so well in the real world.
 

Lalakai

Golden Member
Nov 30, 1999
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a huge number of unknowns here.
- was the first man in official police uniform and on official police duty?
- yes, off duty officers can enforce laws, but in nearly every case, they will call for an on-duty officer before taking action (barring situations where loss of life may be imminent)
- it varies from state to state and department to department as to whether an officer can wear their uniforms while off-duty or not in an official capacity. This "location" may allow it.
- It is EXTREMELY unlikely that any police department would allow their officers to wear their duty uniform while on a private/civilian job.
- "strikes" to the face are definitely further along the line in the usual "use of force continum" after pressure points/arm bars, etc. Each situation is different but in this case from what the video showed, it looks like the man didn't follow protocol.
- unless you were there, we will never know what truly started this, and caused it to escalate.
- if the man was in duty uniform and on official time, then for another person to try and get his attention or pull him away (actual physical contact such as was shown several times in the video) is extremely dangerous, and the officer will respond at the level to ensure his safety and the safety of the people around him. In crowded situations where it may be a single officer in the middle of 6-8 people, you can be pretty sure that the "response" from the officer will not be gentle.

alot of it hinges on whether the man was on official duty and in duty uniform. If he was off duty, in a non-police uniform working for that establishment, then those women just hit the jackpot, and the first officer arriving on the scene may have alot of explaining to do. If he was in uniform and performing his official duties, then some of those women are lucky to have gotten off so lightly. But, 90% of this "armchair quarter backing" without knowing what really happened there.

ps........if you want to get a more inside view of what it's like to be behind the badge, contact your local police departments and ask if you can do a ride along. It will give you a different perspective, and the chance to ask some questions, as you ride.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
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Is that where we are now in this country where a police officer can come up to you at any time for any reason and start physically assaulting you, and you are supposed to just sit there and take it? Well fuck that, there are far too many assholes wearing police uniforms.

evidence that this is what happened?
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
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So the solution to being assaulted by an off duty cop is to "chill out"?

The solution is to listen to the cop when he tells you to stop being rowdy, then when you refuse to stop being rowdy and he tells you to leave do not continue to trespass and be rowdy. Then when he tries to arrest you for trespassing and being rowdy do not resist arrest. Then when you are resisting arrest do not have your belligerent friends interfere and assault the officer.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
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I'm still not saying that the cop wasn't perhaps heavy-handed and that he couldn't have handled the situation better at more than one point, but the women are clearly at fault here.

From your linked article:

Well, he tried to place her under arrest and she resisted. Bad move on her part to defiantly refuse to leave, and worse move on her part to resist arrest. Then the other female "brat" felt she needed to get involved.

Drunken "brat" entitlement mentality doesn't play so well in the real world.

1) breach of peace
2) trespassing (as soon as she refused to leave)
3) resisting arrest

She probably would have just gotten a verbal warning had she listened. Now both her and her friend have to face a judge who isn't going to want to listen to their excuses for getting belligerent with police at 3 a.m. after a night of partying.
 
May 16, 2000
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Edit - After seeing subsequent videos it appears that, while the officer acted incorrectly, and DID violate the woman's rights to some degree, it was likely a simple loss of control in a bad situation. I think he should be at LEAST reprimanded and retrained. However, I don't believe he is one of the serious offenders the below original comment was meant to address. I apologize fully for accusing him of such. I stand by what is printed below with regards to the truly bad officers out there, and believe such a hard line with them would improve situations overall.


I can't wait for the day when cops start getting shot/stabbed/killed with regularity for being abusive. When enough die for their nazi bullshit, it will end. If it takes killing 10% of law enforcement every day, so be it. Small price to pay for regulating those who are supposed to protect and defend our liberty and freedom. It's not rocket science.
 
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dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
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I can't wait for the day when cops start getting shot/stabbed/killed with regularity for being abusive. When enough die for their nazi bullshit, it will end. If it takes killing 10% of law enforcement every day, so be it. Small price to pay for regulating those who are supposed to protect and defend our liberty and freedom. It's not rocket science.

That is completely uncalled for; vile in the extreme.
 
May 16, 2000
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That is completely uncalled for; vile in the extreme.

No, what's vile in the extreme is these people abusing their position and authority. Violation of citizen rights, THATS vile and uncalled for. Responding to it with necessary force, well that's just justice. Our forefathers went to war over far less. We're just pansies for not doing so. It's not only deserved, it's required in our founding documents.
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
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No, what's vile in the extreme is these people abusing their position and authority. Violation of citizen rights, THATS vile and uncalled for. Responding to it with necessary force, well that's just justice. Our forefathers went to war over far less. We're just pansies for not doing so. It's not only deserved, it's required in our founding documents.

you should pick your battles dude, there are plenty examples of cavalier power hungry cops. This isn't one of them.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
I can't wait for the day when cops start getting shot/stabbed/killed with regularity for being abusive. When enough die for their nazi bullshit, it will end. If it takes killing 10% of law enforcement every day, so be it. Small price to pay for regulating those who are supposed to protect and defend our liberty and freedom. It's not rocket science.

Maybe the day will come when you need to cop to protect you, the cops choose to use your approach and talk nicely to the perpetrator in hopes that they stop.
 
May 16, 2000
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you should pick your battles dude, there are plenty examples of cavalier power hungry cops. This isn't one of them.

Edit - After seeing subsequent videos it appears that, while the officer acted incorrectly, and DID violate the woman's rights to some degree, it was likely a simple loss of control in a bad situation. I think he should be at LEAST reprimanded and retrained. However, I don't believe he is one of the serious offenders. I apologize fully for accusing him of such.

He acted as he did, most likely, because it's his personality or experience. If the more serious instances resulted in SEVERE penalties (like death) against the police, people like him would either control themselves, or quit/be fired.

The minor things happen because the major things are allowed. Stop the major, and the minor will almost totally disappear.

Also, as anyone who's been on the receiving end of an abusive officer will tell you, even minor abuses are pretty seriously disturbing and often dangerous. There's simply NO room for it in that role.
 
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May 16, 2000
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Maybe the day will come when you need to cop to protect you, the cops choose to use your approach and talk nicely to the perpetrator in hopes that they stop.

Until the suspect poses a direct threat that's EXACTLY what I expect them to do. Of course, I'm also capable of taking care of myself for the most part. I call the police for minor things, or to take a report after its over...not to protect me. Only the individual is responsible for their own protection.

The rights of the citizen are superior to the duties of an employee. In fact, the rights of a citizen are superior to pretty much anything.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
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He acted as he did, most likely, because it's his personality or experience. If the more serious instances resulted in SEVERE penalties (like death) against the police, people like him would either control themselves, or quit/be fired.

The minor things happen because the major things are allowed. Stop the major, and the minor will almost totally disappear.

There was nothing minor here. He did his job and did it well. This would be non-issue if the women was a mexican migrant farm worker
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Until the suspect poses a direct threat that's EXACTLY what I expect them to do. Of course, I'm also capable of taking care of myself for the most part. I call the police for minor things, or to take a report after its over...not to protect me. Only the individual is responsible for their own protection.

The rights of the citizen are superior to the duties of an employee. In fact, the rights of a citizen are superior to pretty much anything.

Alrighty then cowboy, maybe they will come to take the report of your fatality because you could take care of yourself.
 
May 16, 2000
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There was nothing minor here. He did his job and did it well. This would be non-issue if the women was a mexican migrant farm worker

Edit - After seeing subsequent videos it appears that, while the officer acted incorrectly, and DID violate the woman's rights to some degree, it was likely a simple loss of control in a bad situation. I think he should be at LEAST reprimanded and retrained. However, I don't believe he is one of the serious offenders. I apologize fully for accusing him of such.

I'm leaving the below comment in only to offer thread continuity. I fully retract it, and apologize for it.

He was a fucktard abusive asshole, and deserved to have his dick knocked in the dirt for over-reacting. There is NO call for hands on unless there's a viable threat present, and NEVER a reason to lose your cool, get personal, become verbally abusive, etc. You treat every citizen with utmost respect, even as you're arresting them when you have to.
 
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May 16, 2000
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Alrighty then cowboy, maybe they will come to take the report of your fatality because you could take care of yourself.

You do realize that police respond to crimes in progress only a TINY percentage of the time? In almost all cases people are on their own until it's over. Crimes take seconds, police take minutes.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
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He was a fucktard abusive asshole, and deserved to have his dick knocked in the dirt for over-reacting. There is NO call for hands on unless there's a viable threat present, and NEVER a reason to lose your cool, get personal, become verbally abusive, etc. You treat every citizen with utmost respect, even as you're arresting them when you have to.

ok then please tell me how you remove a belligerent trespasser from a restaurant booth with out getting physical
 
May 16, 2000
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ok then please tell me how you remove a belligerent trespasser from a restaurant booth with out getting physical

First, you take a minute to assess them. Then you deescalate the situation, which works about 3/4 of the time. Then you set an ultimatum, and preferably organize a show of force if possible (this is often not possible because security so often has to work alone). When all that's done you make an arrest. Not an ejection, an arrest (which carries with it an allowance of minimal necessary force). In so doing you have protected yourself, and everyone else.

People don't have the right to interfere with a LAWFUL arrest, and most know it. In most cases when you make those present aware that all options have been exhausted, and the person is now under arrest, they will not interfere. They may complain, but seldom interfere (except in certain flashpoint situations). People have a duty to interfere with unnecessary physical abuse however.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
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The City and PD will claim he was acting outside the scope of his employment as he was off duty working a second job which I assume was a security guard for the restaurant or building.

Then the city should have rules against him or any other officer wearing their uniform while working details.

The fact that he is in uniform means that he is a representative of the police department and of the city itself. They are screwed.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
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First, you take a minute to assess them. Then you deescalate the situation, which works about 3/4 of the time. Then you set an ultimatum, and preferably organize a show of force if possible (this is often not possible because security so often has to work alone). When all that's done you make an arrest. Not an ejection, an arrest (which carries with it an allowance of minimal necessary force). In so doing you have protected yourself, and everyone else.

People don't have the right to interfere with a LAWFUL arrest, and most know it. In most cases when you make those present aware that all options have been exhausted, and the person is now under arrest, they will not interfere. They may complain, but seldom interfere (except in certain flashpoint situations). People have a duty to interfere with unnecessary physical abuse however.

Do you have some proof he skipped all those de-escalation options?

Also grabbing someone to remove them is a minimum use of force.
 
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IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
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Then the city should have rules against him or any other officer wearing their uniform while working details.

The fact that he is in uniform means that he is a representative of the police department and of the city itself. They are screwed.

As i've said before this is a short sighted policy. This means any event or occasion that requires above the norm police presence will cost the tax payers not the business or persons that require the extra policing and it will cost them a great rate of pay as it will be over time..
 
May 16, 2000
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Do you have some proof he skipped all those de-escalation options?

Nope, just a strong feeling given what I watched and my experience, along with the current general state of police mentality. If he did it all right and those women were both in total violation without cause, I'd be happy to apologize publicly to him. But I seriously doubt that's going to be the case.

Even if all that went on before the video, at the moment he slapped the woman he stepped over the line and deserved anything he got. If she was truly out of line, you back off to de-escalate her and reassess the threat, or you assign backup to deal with her while you maintain control of yours, or if you've lost control of the situation you move up the chain of force, which would probably mean drawing oc or taser and issuing a warning to both of them. You do not slap someone. It's a useless act, and a violation of their rights.
 
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Lalakai

Golden Member
Nov 30, 1999
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Nope, just a strong feeling given what I watched and my experience, along with the current general state of police mentality.QUOTE]

...current state of police mentality........ Hopefully you realize that the high percentage of the negatives you see, apply to a very low percentage of the actual Law Enforcement numbers. I can't remember the last time I seen a video of an officer arresting a drug dealer, pulling someone out of a burning vehicle/house, doing CPR, de-escalating a domestic, talking to the parents of child in the ER from a traffic accident. Nor will you; those aren't news worthy. Only the negative news is worth the effort, and from this negative news do people formulate their opinions. I still remember an old stats teacher and his favorite saying: These are the facts as best presented to support my case. yep it works both ways. I've also learned to watch how I express my opinions, when i don't have adequate information. Child birth looks painful, but I don't have first hand experience. I've seen grown men critically injured when a smaller female surpises them with a sharp object. I've watched as a woman who was abused by her husband (physically beaten), turn on the officer that was arresting her husband. I've seen what meth can do, but I have trouble relating to it as i've never experienced the sensations of addiction. I've seen how de-escalations can go both ways, without rhyme or reason.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Check the OP for a new video from a different angle.

This one starts a little earlier too.