PM Olmert and his whole government should resign

[rchiu]

The mistake Olmert and Israel made is using conventional army to fight terrorist group. This is not 1960's when the war was declared at the state level. This is terrorist group like Hamas and Hezbollah doing things on their own. Fighting those terrorist groups using conventional army only get innocent people killed and more international condemnation. The terrorist group have the training and the resources to run and hide from your big bad army and won't get hurt too much. The only people hurt are the civilians.

The cease fire is an inevitable result. Israel cannot continue to kill civilians forever, international pressure will step up.

It is time for the Western countries to realize that you cannot fight terrorism with armies. You gotta use your intelligence agencies, using precision attacks and hit those terrorist organization with precision and stealth. On the other side, you have to look at the root of terrorism and try to use political/economical strategies to solve those problems.

Hope warmogners can learn from this conflict, as well as the war in Iraq, that big army with big guns and bombs is not the solution to everything. Planning and strategy will beat big army and advance weaponary everytime.

 

[Aimster]

Israel's goals have all failed. This is clear. 1) Soldiers are not returned 2) Hezbollah still keeps attacking Israel 3) Israel is having difficulty occupying Southern Lebanon without fighting.

They now realize they cannot eliminate Hezbollah or their threat without occupying the entire state of Lebanon which would be total disaster for Israel.

Hezbollah continues to pound Israel with rockets day after day after day. Israel at the start claimed progress but obviously with 200+ rockets hitting today that progress is weak.

Israel has no choice but to allow the UN to come in along with Lebanon's army to take control of the situation.

Fighting an army in the open is easy. Trying to occupy and takeover cities is difficult and deadly. Israel's military is capable of destroying armies. It is not designed for occupation.

Now to the main topic. Israel's PM should not resign. Israel is fighting Hezbollah with all they got (best U.S tech). We are all human. We are not robots. Man vs Man. Blood vs Blood. The U.S could have had it much worse if the Iraqi population didn't cheer the U.S troops entering Iraq. Lebanese citizens do not want Israel inside their land. If the U.S army (best in the world) didn't have it easy inside Iraq, then what makes you think Israel could pull some magic inside Lebanon?

 

[Screech]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel's goals have all failed. This is clear. 1) Soldiers are not returned 2) Hezbollah still keeps attacking Israel 3) Israel is having difficulty occupying Southern Lebanon without fighting.[/b]

Not necessarily. 1) I thought the resolution provided for the return of the soldiers, but am not sure, as I have not been following the UN part of this too closely. 2)If the UN force has the ability and power to confront hizbullah to stop the attacks on israel (from s. lebanon anyway), then israel's objective succeeded, albeit not in the way they hoped. 3)Once again, this depends on what happens with the UN, in the long run anyway.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: screech

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel's goals have all failed. This is clear. 1) Soldiers are not returned 2) Hezbollah still keeps attacking Israel 3) Israel is having difficulty occupying Southern Lebanon without fighting.[/b]

Not necessarily. 1) I thought the resolution provided for the return of the soldiers, but am not sure, as I have not been following the UN part of this too closely. 2)If the UN force has the ability and power to confront hizbullah to stop the attacks on israel (from s. lebanon anyway), then israel's objective succeeded, albeit not in the way they hoped. 3)Once again, this depends on what happens with the UN, in the long run anyway.

What's the difference between the current UN resolution and the old one? The old one also stated that Hezbollah must not exist (disarm).

Israel is not going to leave Lebanon by tomorrow and Hezbollah will continue to fight them as long as they occupy Lebanon. This will basically put an end to any kind of deal they have struck.

Is the UN going to send forces into the middle of a war?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The fault is not in the Israelie leadership----the fault is in the strategy of collective punishment used by Israel for 58 years.

Get a clue---collective punishment no longer works---it now backfires and aids the terrorist. This is just round one in a new battle. The Israelies have now staved off the new immediate threat---soon the threat will be coming from new places.

Israel must now finally have to confront the right to return in a real way. Something collective punishment has allowed Israel to deny for 58 years.---and is now the defense that guarantees a terrorist victory long term.

Exactly.

Just some points:

1) Israel had the best opportunity in decades when Syria left Lebanon approx 1 year ago. They should have drawn close to the new Lebanese government and aided the Lebanese in getting Hezbollah out of the south. Opportunty lost.

2) Hezbollah is not the sort of organization that can be easily defeated. Military action alone is insufficient to destroy such an organization, you need to convince people not to support it. Israel's actions did just the opposite thus ensuring Hezbollahs survival.

3) This war definitely was politically motivated by a Noob trying to impress his electorate. The arguement can be made that Israel had legitimate reason to start the War the way it has, but it clearly was ill conceived and turned into a political fiasco for Israel.

4) If Hezbollah's ability to continue operations in the South of Lebanon is curtailed, then over time Israel wins. Hopefully the ceasefire and International force in the area assures that, but Hezbollah will probably find a way/place in which to continue carrying out actions against Israel.

Regarding #4...if this happens, why won't the world unite against Hezbollah, when it's obvious they are the ones who don't want peace?

I think this is a huge problem: Israel, in all its efforts, has little internationl support, and this is a large reason why many of their efforts fall short. It's very hard to achieve a goal when the world is, at worst, against that goal being achieved, and at best, criticizing your every move.

Israel would never convince Arab countries not to support Hezbollah. Their charter, their mission statement is the destruction - not only of Israel - but of all Jews worldwide. This is the major goal of many Middle Eastern clerics and fanatics, which control the Middle Eastern countries and direct their policies.

Israel has to convince the rest of the world that Hezbollah and their supporters are the root of the problem. The only way they can do this, unfortunately, is to rely on the UN to make decisions about their security for them. It's already been seen that Israel is not allowed to take care of itself, the world condemns them for it. The world will only support the victim, and international anti-semitic attitudes make it very hard for them to view Israel as the victim.

So, right now this would be my plan. Don't cross the blue line. Let the UN dictate your security for you. Even when Hezbollah violates the cease-fire, don't attack. PLEAD to the UN to do something about it. KEEP ON DEMANDING the world do something about these heinous attacks. BE VOCAL. For too long Israel accepted these terrorists silently. Then they had to do the inevitable, which turned out to gain not much of anything for them. Time for a new tactic. Try to show the world, as blind as they choose to be, that Hezbollah is not interested in peace. Show the world that Hezbollah must be destroyed.

The biggest part of that success is if the world takes off its anti-Semitic blinders and views the situation for what it really is. Then we can finally have a willing international force in there to decimate any terrorist group who tries to disrupt the peace. It has been shown Israel is not allowed to dictate their own security. The world will not allow peace on the Israeli's terms (which, unfortunately, means no peace ever, since Hezbollah is a group of terror and war), so there must be peace on the world's terms. Let them see how it really is.

This is frustrating, but Israel must live through it - they can - and overcome the most difficult obstacle for peace - the world surrounding it.

"The World" is already against Hezbollah. Israel is not being criticized for attacking Hezbollah, it's being criticized for the wanton destruction of Lebanon.

 

[Aisengard]

"The World" - the UN - refuses to label Hezbollah as a terrorist group. A big reason why they are allowed to survive. Remember, it was the UN resolution, the one that said Hezbollah must disarm, that the UN conveniently allowed to slide.

Until the world can unite against terrorist groups such as Hezbollah, they will always exist, and always disrupt the peace. That the world is NOT united against Hezbollah is why there's a castrated UN force going in to stand there, instead of an international force going in to actually disarm the bastards.

 

[Lemon law]

The some of the above posts may be accurate---what is not acurate is to frame this as simple arab anti-sematism against a noble Israel that is simply defending itself.

The issue now is Israelie theft of land---which they must give back---and won't give back until compelled---and now the terrorist have new effective tactics. Even if Hezbollah comes to the table and ceases to be a threat to Israel---other smaller terrorist organizations will continue the attack--until the issues that drive it are defused by a basic just final peace.

The new bigots are the Israelies who consider themselves superior--not just equal to their neighbors in human rights.

 

[tommywishbone]

On a positive note for the Israeli military; their leaflet production was quite impressive. I mean really, where did they find all those Kinkos to print all those great leaflets so fast? Very impressive indeed.

 

[Screech]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: screech

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel's goals have all failed. This is clear. 1) Soldiers are not returned 2) Hezbollah still keeps attacking Israel 3) Israel is having difficulty occupying Southern Lebanon without fighting.[/b]

Not necessarily. 1) I thought the resolution provided for the return of the soldiers, but am not sure, as I have not been following the UN part of this too closely. 2)If the UN force has the ability and power to confront hizbullah to stop the attacks on israel (from s. lebanon anyway), then israel's objective succeeded, albeit not in the way they hoped. 3)Once again, this depends on what happens with the UN, in the long run anyway.

What's the difference between the current UN resolution and the old one? The old one also stated that Hezbollah must not exist (disarm).

Israel is not going to leave Lebanon by tomorrow and Hezbollah will continue to fight them as long as they occupy Lebanon. This will basically put an end to any kind of deal they have struck.

Is the UN going to send forces into the middle of a war?

True, it is doubtful.

 

[Doboji]

Well from what I understand the UN resolution actually meets 90% of the demands made by Israel in the first place.

1) Unconditional return of captured Soldiers.

2) Lebanese Army in Southern Lebanon, reinforced by a stronger UN force.

3) 0 Hezbollah actions south of the Litani river.

The only demand I don't see being met is the disbanding of Hezbollah... I can't say I EVER believed that was going to happen. Hezbollah's existence was assured with the first lebanese civillian killed. This was simply the logical consequence of this "battle". This was just one battle in a larger war. A battle that (IF the resolution is actually followed) Israel has won.

Now of course we have to wait and see if the UN resolution is actually followed.

-Max

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
No Samur,

Israel just wanted to believe peace could be acheived while it kept what it stole---now they know it ain't gonna happen--- either Israel will get real and honestly confront the right to return---or they have to build a bigger army to retain what it stole.

The latter will just result in a bigger terrorist opposition---and faster than Israel can build a bigger army.---eventually Israel will lose all world support---its already happening.
Only the ever self-delusional Israelies don't see it coming.

I think you're missing the point again. It's no different for the Israelis if Egypt started a war and won it or the right of return was realized. In both case, Israel existance will end in a great bath of blood.

Taking an aspiring western country and making it an Arab state is a very stupid thing to do.

Israel's army will continue to cope just as it did for the last 60 years.

 

[Future Shock]

Originally posted by: magomago
I think it was more of a tie. Isreal lost political power, but at the same time they disabled lebanon for a very long time...especially if you consider a lot of the civilian infrastructure that was destroyed. That sets back development of Lebanon atleat another 10 years.

And you consider the destruction of Lebanon, a non-violent, non-militarized, constitutional DEMOCRACY in the Middle East a good thing, why?

Beirut had more bars and night clubs per square mile than Paris or New York City.

You could ski in the morning, and soak up the rays on the beach in the afternoon.

Real-estate prices in Beruit where skyrocketing as wealthy Saudi Arabians bought second houses outside of their ultra-conservative homeland...where the woman could wear bikinis and the men could drink alcohol.

This is not the type of country that you want to stop from developing in the Middle East - this is the type of arab country we should be ECCSTATIC about.

Instead we just let Israel knock them back 10 years, because a terrorist group that is too well-backed for the Lebanese police, er, army to kick out was using part of their territory as a base of operations. Hey, how about we simply equip Lebanon's army adequately for a start? Or had Rice actually do her duty and drop into Syria and lay down the law to get their claws out of Lebanon and end their funnel to Hezzbullah?

Nah, far more money to be made for US munitions manufacturers if Israel goes on the warpath...accomplishing nothing but the estabishment of Hezzbullah as an actual defender of Lebanon for the first time - even in the eyes of the Christian population, who used to fight WITH Israel during the civil war.

Totally misplayed, and totally inept - except by Hezzbollah, who I may hate with a passion (and do), but have to admire for tactics...

Future Shock