Plumbing corrosion question

[[DHT]Osiris]

Looking to get some insight on a hopefully small issue we're having.

Noticed a leak on one of our toilet tank-to-bowl bolts, checked inside and saw a fairly large amount of growth of some kind of bacteria/fungi inside. Gave it a pour of bleach (much to the dismay of my septic I'm sure), checked two of our other toilets, same story, hit them too.

After giving it a bit, I drained the bowl in question, and took a look at the bolt, was covered in this bacterial growth and had damn near dissolved the bolt. Upon reading, seems like this might be one of the few types of iron bacteria which feed on iron, release sulfuric acid. Now, I'm assuming that these things started their life as stainless steel, but they were literal slag by the time I got to them. The first one actually cracked in half as I was fiddling with the tank, dropping the 'pin' and releasing the 'head' of the bolt into the bowl. Second one broke off, had to dremel the pin apart to get it to fall through. Scrubbed out the insides of all the tanks w/soap and water, gave another wipe with bleach, seem clean now aside from some residue at the bottom. I'll note that in all three bowls, there's either a very clear 'focal point' of bacteria around the bolt heads, or that's the only place the bacteria is, and it hasn't really encroached onto the ceramic much. On the one bowl we have with no bolts (single unit I think) there's zero growth.

So here's my questions:
1) I'm assuming these buggers are in the well/ground water, and got through during one of the instances either during our stay or previous owners (moved in a few months ago) when the water filtration system was inactive and water was brought through the system. Does that sound accurate?

2) I replaced the stainless steel bolts with brass ones, which are antibacterial by nature. Having said that, I'm seeing mixed reports on how well brass holds up under hydrogen peroxide (35% concentration). We use that for our filtration system (very heavy concentrations of sulfur in the well water apparently) and some stuff is saying it's not to be used in a hydrogen peroxide environment, some are saying it's fine; but the 'do not use' may not be taking dilution in a water treatment system into account. Thoughts? If it is fine to use, will it actually keep this crap from growing?

Thanks!

 

[herm0016]

they were probably just plated, not stainless. no idea about the bacteria or whatever. i may look for nickle or chrome plated stainless. what are your pipes made out of? if you are having trouble there, you should check the anode on your hot water heater also. its usually zink but other types are available and the h202 could eat up that zink anode quickly in a hot environment, as that's whats it will eat up in the brass as well. the bacteria could just be feeding off the byproduct of the rusting and not the bolt it self.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

they were probably just plated, not stainless. no idea about the bacteria or whatever. i may look for nickle or chrome plated stainless. what are your pipes made out of? if you are having trouble there, you should check the anode on your hot water heater also. its usually zink but other types are available and the h202 could eat up that zink anode quickly in a hot environment, as that's whats it will eat up in the brass as well. the bacteria could just be feeding off the byproduct of the rusting and not the bolt it self.

Not honestly sure what the old bolts started out with, since they were so far rusted, all I could tell is that they were metallic in color, no bronzed/copper in color. For all I know they were just sad iron bolts someone used to be cheap.

Pipes are copper in our 'boiler room' (for lack of a better term) but pretty sure they transition into PEX for the rest of the house. Hot water heater is propane, not electric.

 

[herm0016]

Hot water heater is propane, not electric.

All or most? hot water heaters have anodes. does not matter what the energy source is, protects it from corrosion just like the zink plates on the bottom of a boat.

 

[mindless1]

How big/heavy/leveraged is the load? Wondering if nylon bolts would work...

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

All or most? hot water heaters have anodes. does not matter what the energy source is, protects it from corrosion just like the zink plates on the bottom of a boat.

Oh, my bad, had no idea. It's a Boilermate Classic Series, can't find any information on what type of anode it might have, google's coming up empty unless I go for more generic 'propane hot water heater anode' kind of searches. Manuals for the model don't state anything.

How big/heavy/leveraged is the load? Wondering if nylon bolts would work...

No real load, it's mostly just to secure it in place. That could work as long as our water/hydrogen peroxide don't dissolve it I guess.

So far after ~72hrs, no corrosion on the bolts and no growth, so that's good I guess.

 

[mindless1]

I would get the water pH tested, if it is acidic and you have any metal like copper pipes, or faucets, etc, it may be eating them up. That would make a couple toilet bolts the least of your concerns.

I'm no chemist but I did check and saw that nylon is resistant to most chemicals including acids but not hydrogen peroxide, though I would have thought the system is set up so the hydrogen peroxide breaks down before it gets to its destination or else you shouldn't drink it, all your family members who bathe in it would eventually have blonde hair, and all metal in the system would rust at an accelerated rate?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I would get the water pH tested, if it is acidic and you have any metal like copper pipes, or faucets, etc, it may be eating them up. That would make a couple toilet bolts the least of your concerns.

I'm no chemist but I did check and saw that nylon is resistant to most chemicals including acids but not hydrogen peroxide, though I would have thought the system is set up so the hydrogen peroxide breaks down before it gets to its destination or else you shouldn't drink it, all your family members who bathe in it would eventually have blonde hair, and all metal in the system would rust at an accelerated rate?

That's what I assumed as well, that the rate of peroxide introduction was controlled so that it was basically zero'd (along with whatever it's there to clean out/purify) so that vaguely-neutral water was actually entering the house water infrastructure.

That's why I'm working off the assumption that this crap got into the toilet tanks, at least, during a timeframe when the filtration system was off.

 

[Micrornd]

How big/heavy/leveraged is the load? Wondering if nylon bolts would work...

Definitely not.
Nylon is like rubber, it continues to "age" and will become brittle over time.
Sooner or later every toilet tank is leaned against or used as a steadying point, so you definitely don't want something that can easily snap between the tank and the base.
Stay with brass bolts, they are the accepted standard because they are time tested.

That's what I assumed as well, that the rate of peroxide introduction was controlled so that it was basically zero'd (along with whatever it's there to clean out/purify) so that vaguely-neutral water was actually entering the house water infrastructure.

That's why I'm working off the assumption that this crap got into the toilet tanks, at least, during a timeframe when the filtration system was off.

You're referring to sulfur, but I'm sure what you have is hydrogen sulfide (H2S), especially since you're treating with hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). Water containing H2S can and will corrode piping materials, such as copper, brass, steel, iron and stainless steel.

That said, I'd seriously have the water retested at the points of usage to make sure it is being treated properly.
There should be no H2S making it through AND no hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) making it through either to your house.
If either appears at the point of usage, then you need to find out why and stop it.
Neither is good for you long term.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Definitely not.
Nylon is like rubber, it continues to "age" and will become brittle over time.
Sooner or later every toilet tank is leaned against or used as a steadying point, so you definitely don't want something that can easily snap between the tank and the base.
Stay with brass bolts, they are the accepted standard because they are time tested.



You're referring to sulfur, but I'm sure what you have is hydrogen sulfide (H2S), especially since you're treating with hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). Water containing H2S can and will corrode piping materials, such as copper, brass, steel, iron and stainless steel.

That said, I'd seriously have the water retested at the points of usage to make sure it is being treated properly.
There should be no H2S making it through AND no hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) making it through either to your house.
If either appears at the point of usage, then you need to find out why and stop it.
Neither is good for you long term.

Understood. To be clear I know the house's well supply has heavy sulfur contents (the person who manages our filtration system said as much), but it's only detectable if the system is being bypassed for purge (normally only happens in the middle of the night; happened once in the day due to a power outage). There's no noticeable taste or bleaching going on with our water so I'm thinking it's probably fine, hence my thought that this was an isolated incident with the bacteria. We'll likely get the water tested as well though, just to be sure.

 

[mindless1]

I wrote nylon but they may be some other type of plastic, I know they exist because I have some on one that have been there at least a dozen years.

Here's a set that states they're polyoxymethelene :

https://www.amazon.com/FlushSaver-INDUSTRIAL-SoftSeal-Gaskets-CORRODE/dp/B00EV6OSQ6

 

[Micrornd]

Understood. To be clear I know the house's well supply has heavy sulfur contents (the person who manages our filtration system said as much), but it's only detectable if the system is being bypassed for purge (normally only happens in the middle of the night; happened once in the day due to a power outage). There's no noticeable taste or bleaching going on with our water so I'm thinking it's probably fine, hence my thought that this was an isolated incident with the bacteria. We'll likely get the water tested as well though, just to be sure.

"Only detectable" how? If you mean by taste and smell, well...…….….
Not trying scare you or sound paranoid, but I would urge you to have the water tested by a lab (definitely not by "test strips") at the point of usage. Remember, your talking about long term exposure (yes, that is a relative term, but it's also not like just drinking a couple of glasses of water either) and you/your family's health.
Simply taking a shower, running a bath or running water in the sink can allow things like H2S to escape into the atmosphere you are breathing as well as being in the water you drink and while short term exposure is normally not a problem, long term can be. And some exposure levels to "things" in drinking water are not reversible health-wise.

I see so many people that try to do the right thing and have their water tested/analyzed and put in a treatment system or have one put in and then assume it is doing the job because the flagrant symptoms are no longer present or the installer tells them it is "working great", and they never bother to recheck the water at the point of usage. The most important thing to do after installing a water treatment system, is to test it at the point of delivery, both hot and cold samples in a residence, and make sure it is working properly and if not correct it. They also never bother to have the well water retested every 3 years, just assuming that well water stays the same and that is a fallacy depending where you live.

 

[Micrornd]

I wrote nylon but they may be some other type of plastic, I know they exist because I have some on one that have been there at least a dozen years.

Here's a set that states they're polyoxymethelene :

https://www.amazon.com/FlushSaver-INDUSTRIAL-SoftSeal-Gaskets-CORRODE/dp/B00EV6OSQ6

And in the "Product Description" they rightly include the disclaimer - "They are less expensive and recommended for tank mounts where the tank is supported against a wall. Stainless bolts are smaller diameter (3/16”), yet very strong and corrosion resistant. They can be tightened down firmly enough to hold non-supported tanks without worry of breakage."

My reasoning is most of today's plumbers don't rough-in so that the tank has no gap from the wall when installed, and then they fail to install a spacer behind the tank to fill that gap. So anytime someone leans back (and many, many do when "relaxing", "straining", or "pushing off" when getting up, check it yourself next visit), pressure is put on the tank-to-base connection and while the "nylon" bolts will bend/flex without breaking when new, the bending/stretching can/could also allow the spigot of the "china" tank and the "china" base to come in contact with each other causing cracking or breakage, if the tank is far enough away from the wall. (When installed those tank to base gaskets are already compressed, so they have only a very small amount of "give", nothing like when they are in your hand).

I'm glad yours work well for you, they do have their uses if one is careful, I just don't recommend them as a rule, since for a few cents more I know brass ones will work in all scenarios.
I'll stay old school and stick with brass, they've worked for well over a hundred years without the need of a disclaimer

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

"Only detectable" how? If you mean by taste and smell, well...…….….
Not trying scare you or sound paranoid, but I would urge you to have the water tested by a lab (definitely not by "test strips") at the point of usage. Remember, your talking about long term exposure (yes, that is a relative term, but it's also not like just drinking a couple of glasses of water either) and you/your family's health.
Simply taking a shower, running a bath or running water in the sink can allow things like H2S to escape into the atmosphere you are breathing as well as being in the water you drink and while short term exposure is normally not a problem, long term can be. And some exposure levels to "things" in drinking water are not reversible health-wise.

I see so many people that try to do the right thing and have their water tested/analyzed and put in a treatment system or have one put in and then assume it is doing the job because the flagrant symptoms are no longer present or the installer tells them it is "working great", and they never bother to recheck the water at the point of usage. The most important thing to do after installing a water treatment system, is to test it at the point of delivery, both hot and cold samples in a residence, and make sure it is working properly and if not correct it. They also never bother to have the well water retested every 3 years, just assuming that well water stays the same and that is a fallacy depending where you live.

Yep, I was specifically referencing smell when I said that. I agree completely that this water should be tested, and I plan to do so soon. We just moved in and have been chasing a few other higher priority items (see my other thread here) but this one is bubbling to the top, pun intended.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

An update to this, the brass bolts I installed in the first toilet started to corrode again after approximately one week time in the water. Based on that, I suspected we're getting far more hydrogen peroxide into the water supply than we should. Called our water system guy out, he showed me how to adjust the pump for the injection system (it was non-obvious, given how the pump is mounted). It was set to 100% of flow through the pump, it's now set to 70 and we're still getting microbubbles in our water. I'm holding off on turning it down until some hydrogen peroxide test strips I ordered come in, to determine how much is in it, and how much it changes with pump % changes (so I know how to adjust it throughout the year).

For the toilets, we actually replaced the two that a segmented tank + bowl with singular units (GF and In-laws wanted new ones anyhow) so those, specifically, shouldn't be a problem again. I also highly suspect now that the original bolts were brass, or at least brass plated, and just dissolved under the combination of hydrogen peroxide, general rust, and whatever was growing in the toilet tank.