Please say its not so Joe Biden.

[Lemon law]

Recently Joe Biden opened up his fat yap and implied the USA would not deter Israel from
bombing Iran, which IMHO, is an extremely stupid and shortsighted statement to make.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07...n.html?ref=global-home

While Biden is technically correct that any sovereign nation makes its own decisions, its the implications that matter. Because the wider world and the international community would regard any Israeli bombing of Iran as certain evidence of US complicity. And if Israel choose the shorter route of overflying Iraqi territory, the USA is still obligated to protect Iraqi airspace
making US complicity a done deal.

In the Syrian strike at the suspected reactor a year or so ago, even though Israel wanted it far earlier, Israel still waited for a US OK meaning both the US and Israel agreed.

But to suggest that Israel can act on its own and still commit the USA is very very dangerous to Uncle Sam's foreign policy, and may again make the USA as the one who get universally condemned by the international community.

Any decision to bomb Iran must go through the UN, and failing that, its an act of unprovoked aggression and war.

I like Joe Biden and many of the innovative ways he thinks about problems, but he has an incredible ability to be a loose canon when he does not think ahead before he opens his mouth.

My prediction, Obama will have to totally repudiate the Biden statement in no uncertain terms. Both publically and in private communications to Israel.

 

[blackangst1]

lol

oops

 

[OCGuy]

They are 2/2 on good reactor strikes. I'm sure theyll do the right thing, with or without us.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Recently Joe Biden opened up his fat yap and implied the USA would not deter Israel from
bombing Iran, which IMHO, is an extremely stupid and shortsighted statement to make.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07...n.html?ref=global-home

While Biden is technically correct that any sovereign nation makes its own decisions, its the implications that matter. Because the wider world and the international community would regard any Israeli bombing of Iran as certain evidence of US complicity. And if Israel choose the shorter route of overflying Iraqi territory, the USA is still obligated to protect Iraqi airspace
making US complicity a done deal.

In the Syrian strike at the suspected reactor a year or so ago, even though Israel wanted it far earlier, Israel still waited for a US OK meaning both the US and Israel agreed.

But to suggest that Israel can act on its own and still commit the USA is very very dangerous to Uncle Sam's foreign policy, and may again make the USA as the one who get universally condemned by the international community.

Any decision to bomb Iran must go through the UN, and failing that, its an act of unprovoked aggression and war. -- thats BS and you know it. The UN won`t do squat!!I like Joe Biden and many of the innovative ways he thinks about problems, but he has an incredible ability to be a loose canon when he does not think ahead before he opens his mouth.

My prediction, Obama will have to totally repudiate the Biden statement in no uncertain terms. Both publically and in private communications to Israel.

For all your diatribe and supposed knowledge this is only a big deal if you try to make it a big deal!!

There is no reason for us to stop Israel from doing what Israel deems is needed to survive!!

Your prediction is just that based on nothing.
Obama will do jack shit!!@

 

[Moonbeam]

Where is the video of his words? I don't want the NYT telling me what he said. I want to hear what he said directly.

 

[Craig234]

What about Iran doing what it things it needs to?

Let's see who has more reason to feel threatened:

- Iran's democracy overthrown and a ruler with a repressive police force put in charge
- The US pushing Saddam Hussein to invade Iran in the longest major 20th century war, with a million casualties
- The US invading Iraq in violation of international law with it being well-known there was interest in Iraq as being useful as a key central location for a US military presence from which attacks on other regional nations could be launched - Iran, Syria, etc., and we now have an indefinite presence i Iraq. A war in which the US military engaged Iran to defend Saddam.
- Our alliance with Israel who threatens to deny Iran the same protection of a nuclear deterrent that they stole for themselves.
- Any nation wanting to attack Israel today faces the consequences of a US response, the most powerful military in the world. Israel has an enormous deterrent already.

Now, let's look at the actions Iran has done to threaten Israel:

- Had one secondary political figure who said he'd like the governemnt of Israel to have regime change, in effect, which was mis-reported in the west as a desire to nuke Israel.

Which, of course, was actually a misrepresentation for the purpose of justifying aggression against Iran - the misquote was an aggressive act to help cause war against them.

So, who has the better argument for its needing the protection from nukes? Iran to defend itself, or Israel to destroy Iran's ability to protect itself the way Israel does?

I can easily point out the strategic claims from the Project for a new American century about overthrowing Iran's government in coming decades. And to the ability the US has to launch and justify its wars whenver it likes, as it did with former ally Saddam - or as the US did in ints proxy war against Iran.

How can Iran feel secure withoiut a nuclear deterrent? Would you, in Iran's shoes? Who can we blame for the history showing Iran cannot feel safe?

We have to choose, we have principles, or we are just another aggressive thuggish nation who likes to use pretty words to hide behind while acting contrary to them.

So far - with the installation of governments who would sell out the Iranian people before 1953, the overthrow of their democracy 1953-1979, and a decade-long war launched against them after that, the answer is pretty clear how we have set the policy, it's pretty hard to fine any principles we espouse in the policies there. Even our 'most liberal' president since the Shah was overthrown has delcared he will do whatever it takes to prevent their obtaining a nuclear deterrent.

Are there risks to the proliferation of nuclear weapons? Yes, of course. But do we find excuses for it when the proliferation is with our 'allies', and to justify our own nukes?

You know the answer. What'd be wrong with at least a 'no nukes in the Middle East' policy, removing Israel's nukes if we're not going to allow them to others?

Oh, no, that's inconvenient; let's continue saying our policies are 'fair' while having one-sided nuclear policies and continung our 'domino' policies for regional dominance.

Funny how easy it is to fall into thuggish policies.

I wonder how well the risks of Iranian nuclear deterrence couild be reduced if we had a cooperative approach both protecting their security while barring any ggression.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: OCguy
They are 2/2 on good reactor strikes. I'm sure theyll do the right thing, with or without us.

I, too, hope they do the right thing and leave the Iranians the hell alone.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Where is the video of his words? I don't want the NYT telling me what he said. I want to hear what he said directly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moonbeam, in all due respects, I heard Biden repeat the same thing on today's This Week on Nationally syndicated TV in an interview with George S.

But if you do not believe the NY times, I have little illusions that you should believe me instead, when I tell you the NYT is speaking the truth, the whole truth, and right from Biden's mouth as a direct quote.

Some skepticism is healthy, but in this case, you are on the wrong end of reality.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: OCguy
They are 2/2 on good reactor strikes. I'm sure theyll do the right thing, with or without us.

I, too, hope they do the right thing and leave the Iranians the hell alone.

Good to see. I think they had reason to prevent Iraq from getting a nuke. Iran isn't about defending themselves, it's about keeping Iran vulnerable as a power play.

It's a bit ironic how they show the need Iran has. You might not think you need a gun, until your neighbor comes over with a gun and says he'll shoot you if you get a gun.

Then you watch as they come over and shoot your next door neighbor, claiming he had a gun, and he didn't, but now they're watching you through the window, an easy shot.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: OCguy
They are 2/2 on good reactor strikes. I'm sure theyll do the right thing, with or without us.

I, too, hope they do the right thing and leave the Iranians the hell alone.

It would also be nice if Iran would not tolerate the words from it's appointed leader that could be misinterpreted.

And also stop attacking Israel via their proxies/

 

[Lemon law]

Not only is Iran on the right end of UN IEAE compliance, Iran is too big, too far away, and its nuclear sites are too deeply buried for Israel to more than dent.

Unless Israel is willing to use its nukes, Israel lacks the bunker busting bombs, the planes big enough to carry them, or the refueling capacity to go the distance.

Unlike Iraq and Syria, Iran is no paper tiger, and Israel better think long and hard about starting a huge regional war and its ability to escape Iranian retaliation. Even if the my country right or wrong mentality is strong, its will be over my dead body to bring the USA into a Israel is definitely wrong war on the side of Israel.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Where is the video of his words? I don't want the NYT telling me what he said. I want to hear what he said directly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moonbeam, in all due respects, I heard Biden repeat the same thing on today's This Week on Nationally syndicated TV in an interview with George S.

But if you do not believe the NY times, I have little illusions that you should believe me instead, when I tell you the NYT is speaking the truth, the whole truth, and right from Biden's mouth as a direct quote.

Some skepticism is healthy, but in this case, you are on the wrong end of reality.

I will be the judge of that, thanks. I hope you don't imagine I think the NYT is better and understanding what people are saying than me? Do they have that deep insight into what people feel, like I do? Can they read the flicker of eye-movements like I can or the flush of blood to different parts of the face, the movement of hands to this or that location, the pulse in a temple vein, do they have my capacity to grasp is an instant gestalt the deep meaning in anything? I don't think so.

 

[her209]

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/

Click the Watch 'This Week' Program link on the right.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: OCguy
They are 2/2 on good reactor strikes. I'm sure theyll do the right thing, with or without us.

I, too, hope they do the right thing and leave the Iranians the hell alone.

It would also be nice if Iran would not tolerate the words from it's appointed leader that could be misinterpreted.

And also stop attacking Israel via their proxies/

C'mon, now, Israel itself is largely a proxy for the US, there's a reason why they're our top recieipent of aid, massive military aid, for decades.

Saudi Arabia has a security guarantee from the US as well, among others.

We used Saddam to launch a proxy war against Iran for a decade with a million casualties, and you have the chutzpah to throw stones about proxies.

Do you remember who was essential in the early strengthening of Israel's current enemies, Hamas and Hezbollah, who backed them for their own proxy purposes?

Oh, that's right, trying to undermine the PLO and others with proxy enemie, Israel did and now created monsters.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I hope you don't imagine I think the NYT is better and understanding what people are saying than me? Do they have that deep insight into what people feel, like I do? Can they read the flicker of eye-movements like I can or the flush of blood to different parts of the face, the movement of hands to this or that location, the pulse in a temple vein, do they have my capacity to grasp is an instant gestalt the deep meaning in anything? I don't think so.

I don't know what I'd do if it weren't for you telling me the truth of what people meant to say instead of what they said. Praise your name!!!!

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Where is the video of his words? I don't want the NYT telling me what he said. I want to hear what he said directly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moonbeam, in all due respects, I heard Biden repeat the same thing on today's This Week on Nationally syndicated TV in an interview with George S.

But if you do not believe the NY times, I have little illusions that you should believe me instead, when I tell you the NYT is speaking the truth, the whole truth, and right from Biden's mouth as a direct quote.

Some skepticism is healthy, but in this case, you are on the wrong end of reality.

I will be the judge of that, thanks. I hope you don't imagine I think the NYT is better and understanding what people are saying than me? Do they have that deep insight into what people feel, like I do? Can they read the flicker of eye-movements like I can or the flush of blood to different parts of the face, the movement of hands to this or that location, the pulse in a temple vein, do they have my capacity to grasp is an instant gestalt the deep meaning in anything? I don't think so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eejnaE6sTPk

 

[Bitek]

Maybe a little good cop/ bad cop w/ Obama? After the whole Green revolution and bloody crackdown, relations w/ Iran are going to be difficult to say the least.

 

[bamacre]

I think our real problem is not so much that the USA "won't stand in Israel's way," but more so that it implies the USA actually could stand in Israel's way. As in, whatever is in our best interest, we do. We are the world's policeman, and a very corrupt one at that. We here complain when our local guys get out of hand, and yet our foreign policy is driven by tyrants.

 

[Genx87]

I love Biden, anytime his mouth opens I get a picture of Obama doing a facepalm in my head.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I hope you don't imagine I think the NYT is better and understanding what people are saying than me? Do they have that deep insight into what people feel, like I do? Can they read the flicker of eye-movements like I can or the flush of blood to different parts of the face, the movement of hands to this or that location, the pulse in a temple vein, do they have my capacity to grasp is an instant gestalt the deep meaning in anything? I don't think so.

I don't know what I'd do if it weren't for you telling me the truth of what people meant to say instead of what they said. Praise your name!!!!

I can't tell you anything, Corn. What I can see at the top of the mountain you can imagine in the fog of the valley below me. All I was asking for was a seat on the mountain so I wouldn't have to rely of some yo yo reporting to the NYT from its base. But thanks for the praise.

Thanks for the link, bamacre, I will go check it out in a few.

 

[Moonbeam]

Oh Boy was I right. The NYT and nobody in this thread had the faintest idea what he said. Sadly, people seem only able to hear what they believe others will say instead of what they actually say. The art of listening and parsing words is obviously dead or rare. Sorry Corn, I guess I'm just plain gifted..............

I suppose I could say what he said, but why bother. But I see no reason to believe that if you can't understand Biden you WOULD understand my translation of him.

 

[lupi]

I do believe the BHO said similar things during the campaign and post election; but given his track record of change'n his positions, you can never be sure till it happens.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: lupi
I do believe the BHO said similar things during the campaign and post election; but given his track record of change'n his positions, you can never be sure till it happens.

I don't believe I will take as fact what you believe any more than I believe you will know what happens when it's happening. I'm naturally skeptical, it seems.

 

[OCGuy]

Obama said that he wouldnt tolerate an Iranian nuke. Why dont the AT P&N lefties agree with Obama?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: OCguy
Obama said that he wouldnt tolerate an Iranian nuke. Why dont the AT P&N lefties agree with Obama?

What if the Iranians decide they won't tolerate being told by Obama what he will or won't tolerate? What will we do if they won't tolerate us having one?