Please reconsider using the word "faith" or "religion"

[MasterOfUsers]

Religion and faith are two different things. The purpose of all religions is brotherhood and affirmation. Religion is not needed for faith or communing with God. Many athiests seem to believe the inconsistencies and occasional bad practices of some religions means God isn't worth believing in or spending time educating themselves about. In effect they blame God for the actions of his followers. Which is kind of inconsistent with not believing God exists in the first place.

No, the purpose is condemnation and judgement of anyone not in the group.

That is the only true face of any religion and it's all it's used for. Inclusion and exclusion.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

No, the purpose is condemnation and judgement of anyone not in the group.

That is the only true face of any religion and it's all it's used for. Inclusion and exclusion.

Sorry you've had a bad experience. Not all religions are the same and not all churches within a religion are the same.

 

[MasterOfUsers]

Sorry you've had a bad experience. Not all religions are the same and not all churches within a religion are the same.

I'm talking about the bigger scale, not personal experience.

It's all it's used for, the group of the church are good people, others are bad people and who can we hate today, well we can't hate black people anymore but how about gays, they do fuck all to us but let's go hate them because what good is our religion if we cannot use it as an inclusive group to exclude others?

If it's not gays it's some other group, it's all about us vs them and that is how the group think of religion has always worked, we're good, they are evil, we will get rewarded, they will get punished.

Not even a good guy like yourself can deny that these are the central issues in todays religions.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I'm talking about the bigger scale, not personal experience.

It's all it's used for, the group of the church are good people, others are bad people and who can we hate today, well we can't hate black people anymore but how about gays, they do fuck all to us but let's go hate them because what good is our religion if we cannot use it as an inclusive group to exclude others?

If it's not gays it's some other group, it's all about us vs them and that is how the group think of religion has always worked, we're good, they are evil, we will get rewarded, they will get punished.

Not even a good guy like yourself can deny that these are the central issues in todays religions.

It's about perspective. As humans, we have neither the knowledge nor authority to exclude anyone from the kingdom of God. I agree that fact hasn't kept many from trying. However, that is neither the central issue or intent (no matter how poorly practiced) of religious organizations.

 

[MasterOfUsers]

It's about perspective. As humans, we have neither the knowledge nor authority to exclude anyone from the kingdom of God. I agree that fact hasn't kept many from trying. However, that is neither the central issue or intent (no matter how poorly practiced) of religious organizations.

I'm not talking about the faith, you seem to be a good enough person that wouldn't let the faith make you hate people because they are not part of it or disagreed with you. That is rare.

The problem as i see it is that no one cares about what Jesus had to say, his words about love and tolerance are going unnoticed while the hatred flows over while people proclaim that gays are subhuman scum that should not be tolerated.

It's a problem that has changed shades several times in history and it's not because of the religion as i alluded to in my first post.

I would say it's the central issue since it is the ONLY part of personal faith that deals with anything BUT the personal faith, thus it becomes the central issue in society.

Inclusion, we are good, exclusion, they are not.

Inclusion, we get rewarded, exclusion, they get punished.

I don't even have a problem with that as long as it's personal, you can secretly condemn whoever you may want to condemn but if you start working so that they cannot be married or so that your religion has to be taught in schools or so that a prayer from your religion alone has to be said in government meetings... we have a problem.

 

[notposting]

I never noticed the bunny in the middle of Atomic Playboy's avatar until this thread.

 

[sandorski]

Religion and faith are two different things. The purpose of all religions is brotherhood and affirmation. Religion is not needed for faith or communing with God. Many athiests seem to believe the inconsistencies and occasional bad practices of some religions means God isn't worth believing in or spending time educating themselves about. In effect they blame God for the actions of his followers. Which is kind of inconsistent with not believing God exists in the first place.

Atheists don't blame god(s) for anything. They do not believe god(s) exist.

 

[sandorski]

Then, religion means nothing if it's "in your heart" as anyone can be good and moral without God.

Religion, for it to be of any real use, must be larger than the world we see -- that's why people think they're all going to heaven. Religion can be a scam, if you aren't careful.

Really, if I'm a man of God and both me and an atheist have the exact same thing to look forward to after death (which is a permanent "sleep"), then I have no purpose, and no reason to be religious.

Just a thought.

To live past Death is your purpose?

 

[Retro Rob]

To live past Death is your purpose?

Yes, for most religious folks, or it doesn't mean anything more than it would to a group of secularists.

God and religion supposedly denotes a higher purpose (i.e., 70 Virgins for Muslims, Heavenly Bliss for Christians, etc...)

That's what I mean.

 

[sandorski]

Then, religion means nothing if it's "in your heart" as anyone can be good and moral without God.

Religion, for it to be of any real use, must be larger than the world we see -- that's why people think they're all going to heaven. Religion can be a scam, if you aren't careful.

Really, if I'm a man of God and both me and an atheist have the exact same thing to look forward to after death (which is a permanent "sleep"), then I have no purpose, and no reason to be religious.

Just a thought.

Yes, for most religious folks, or it doesn't mean anything more than it would to a group of secularists.

God and religion supposedly denotes a higher purpose (i.e., 70 Virgins for Muslims, Heavenly Bliss for Christians, etc...)

That's what I mean.

Ya. That's why Humanism makes more sense, IMO. It seeks to improve Lives now and for future generations, not try to go to some better place after Death which no one can even show is possible.

 

[Retro Rob]

Ya. That's why Humanism makes more sense, IMO. It seeks to improve Lives now and for future generations, not try to go to some better place after Death which no one can even show is possible.

Of course, I was just being simplistic -- and no one can show it isn't possible, either, so your point become effectively moot.

 

[MasterOfUsers]

Of course, I was just being simplistic -- and no one can show it isn't possible, either, so your point become effectively moot.

And you can't show that my undying soul isn't what makes it possible.

We've been over this, no evidence for a fatastic proposition means it's unlikely to be true, the more fantastic it is the less likely it is without evidence.

If you give me all of your money you get to live forever per my undying souls wish, i offer you just as much evidence as there is for any form of life after you die.

Is it just me or is every discussion with you circular?

 

[sandorski]

Of course, I was just being simplistic -- and no one can show it isn't possible, either, so your point become effectively moot.

Ah no. If we focus on this Life we all know absolutely happens, then we can improve things not only for ourselves, but our children.

There is no equivalency between our positions. None.

 

[sandorski]

And you can't show that my undying soul isn't what makes it possible.

We've been over this, no evidence for a fatastic proposition means it's unlikely to be true, the more fantastic it is the less likely it is without evidence.

If you give me all of your money you get to live forever per my undying souls wish, i offer you just as much evidence as there is for any form of life after you die.

Is it just me or is every discussion with you circular?

Pretty much

 

[WHAMPOM]

AH! Religion the only thing that keeps you from envy, lust, robbery, rape and murder of your neighbors. Let's throw taking the Lord's name in vain and worshiping other Gods before Him in there too. This is how it works don't it?

 

[Zaap]

I'm not religious nor an atheist, I find both to be different sides of the same coin and can be equally annoying. The later seems to like using the shit on a cake method to ensure no one can enjoy the cake.

Haha, well said. And very true.

 

[alzan]

Actually for a Christian, religion is needed as the Bible states that Jesus is with two or more who pray in his name, and Jesus went to the synagogues to teach.

People who worship on their own an pray on their won make Christianity fit whatever mode they want it to fit.

If 10,000 people stopped going to church, you'd have 10,000 additional versions of Christianity, which is precisely the reason why Christianity is so dang fragmented.

Plus Jesus said the narrow road leads to life. Do you not think those people on that road have to worship together?

That's only true for some Christians, others are able to pray on their own and keep the teachings of their church.

Only in part; a lot of Christians, whether they're members of a particular parish or not, simply cannot reconcile some of what is written in the Bible to either the times in which it was written and/or to current times. Does that make them bad Christians?

I don't think so. The path to G-d is a personal one; having others on journey with you may help sustain those involved but they are not necessary or required.

Yes, for most religious folks, or it doesn't mean anything more than it would to a group of secularists.

God and religion supposedly denotes a higher purpose (i.e., 70 Virgins for Muslims, Heavenly Bliss for Christians, etc...)

That's what I mean.

Emulating Christ in your present life when you can actually influence others and ease their suffering isn't a higher purpose? I mean, you don't need to emulate him once you get to heaven because a) He's already there and b) You're blissful.

This is something I've asked people for years. A guy can come off the street, after murdering 500 people, accept the Christ into his heart, and now he's got a get out of jail free card.

In my opinion, the Church used "Hell" to get people into their religion, now they preach last-minute salvation....anything to get a buck, I guess....

Agreed.

 

[alzan]

I hear these words used so much that it's really ridiculous. Wearing a hijab doesn't make one a muslim. Wearing a cross doesn't make one a christian. Having a Shiva tattoo doesn't make on a Hindu. But apparently it does in our society. Everyone is a christian, muslim, hindu or whatever. It's as easy as pie.

Just go to your local church, accept Christ and wham, your a Christian. Easy as pie.

But really, where is the effort? Where is the personal growth? Just supposedly accepting Christ into your life is a piece of cake. Any Joe can do that (and apparently they have).

Where is the requirement for the so-called followers to actually PRACTICE their religion?

I should not have created this thread but people throw the terms faith and religion around here so much that I feel compelled. Sorry.

That's why pastafarianism rocks. The FSM is really cool and pasta is your holy food. W00t!

Like I said to Rob, people of all religions have trouble reconciling not only the writings of their religions' holy books, but the rituals, the politics and other aspects of their religion.

Keeping true to your faith or spirituality and dealing with the demands of life and this world is tough and not for the faint of heart.

 

[MasterOfUsers]

Pretty much

Seems to be this way, if it's not deflection it's returning to an earlier argument again while misrepresenting everyone elses.

It's like one massive strawman moving through the forum.

 

[Retro Rob]

That's only true for some Christians, others are able to pray on their own and keep the teachings of their church.

Not going to Church and staying at home and your beliefs become modified to what you think it should mean...inevitably.

You cannot keep the teachings by staying home no more than you can keep up with your company by staying home.

Emulating Christ in your present life when you can actually influence others and ease their suffering isn't a higher purpose?

Glad you asked...this is why I said I was being simplistic. The whole purpose of preaching is to give people a hope of something better than "easing suffering"....the Bible offers to get rid of it altogether.

What can be better than that? Whether you believe this or not, this is why Christians preach so that others who are not currently believing can enjoy it.

I think that is a higher purpose!

Agreed.

Thanks. I noticed a trend in religion...they like to teach what people want to hear. Anything for a dollar.

 

[Retro Rob]

That's why pastafarianism rocks. The FSM is really cool and pasta is your holy food. W00t!

I had spaghetti last night. That's evidence of the FSM! No FSM, no Ramen noodles!

RAMEN!

Like I said to Rob, people of all religions have trouble reconciling not only the writings of their religions' holy books, but the rituals, the politics and other aspects of their religion.

Only when people try to modify their teachings to fit the modern world.

Keeping true to your faith or spirituality and dealing with the demands of life and this world is tough and not for the faint of heart.

Agreed.

 

[alzan]

Not going to Church and staying at home and your beliefs become modified to what you think it should mean...inevitably.

You cannot keep the teachings by staying home no more than you can keep up with your company by staying home.




Glad you asked...this is why I said I was being simplistic. The whole purpose of preaching is to give people a hope of something better than "easing suffering"....the Bible offers to get rid of it altogether.

What can be better than that? Whether you believe this or not, this is why Christians preach so that others who are not currently believing can enjoy it.

I think that is a higher purpose!



Thanks. I noticed a trend in religion...they like to teach what people want to hear. Anything for a dollar.

Sorry. I've known too many Christians who were shut-ins who got to church maybe twice a year who inspired others with their faith and their understanding of church teachings. Others who cut their ties with the church or diocese because of political dealings or financial malfeasance, who lived the rest of their lives never wavering and even growing in Christ from how they before they left the church. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Lots of people have been telecommuting in their jobs for years and know just as much about their company as those employees/executives that go to the office everyday.

Living as Christ would live is what eases suffering, preaching to people serves to raise the preacher/proselytizer above those to whom he preaches/proselytizes, an ego-booster. As well it gives the preacher/proselytizer the ever popular option of getting in peoples faces.

Nah, it's a holier-than-thou ego trip.

I had spaghetti last night. That's evidence of the FSM! No FSM, no Ramen noodles!

RAMEN!



Only when people try to modify their teachings to fit the modern world.




Agreed.

Actual Ramen Noodles? The ones that come in a hard brick with a spice packet?

Heretic!! Blasphemer!!

Next you're gonna tell me that you used white sauce.

 

[Retro Rob]

Lots of people have been telecommuting in their jobs for years and know just as much about their company as those employees/executives that go to the office everyday.

Now you're being a wiseguy....you absolutely know what I meant by staying at home.

To be clear, not dealing with the employer period and expecting to keep up with changes in the workplace. You can have company assets (like the handbook etc), but you'll be left in the dust using that alone just like believers will with just their Bible and privacy.

Living as Christ would live is what eases suffering, preaching to people serves to raise the preacher/proselytizer above those to whom he preaches/proselytizes, an ego-booster. As well it gives the preacher/proselytizer the ever popular option of getting in peoples faces.

Nah, it's a holier-than-thou ego trip.

Hey, like I said...you can believe what you want. That's the beauty of being an individual.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Sorry. I've known too many Christians who were shut-ins who got to church maybe twice a year who inspired others with their faith and their understanding of church teachings. Others who cut their ties with the church or diocese because of political dealings or financial malfeasance, who lived the rest of their lives never wavering and even growing in Christ from how they before they left the church. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Always some goofball finding an exception to the basic rule of thumb...

 

[alzan]

Now you're being a wiseguy....you absolutely know what I meant by staying at home.

To be clear, not dealing with the employer period and expecting to keep up with changes in the workplace. You can have company assets (like the handbook etc), but you'll be left in the dust using that alone just like believers will with just their Bible and privacy.

Hey, like I said...you can believe what you want. That's the beauty of being an individual.

A friend of mine works out of his home; he's a principal system engineer for a company that runs a cloud database for university and public libraries in several countries. He reports to the office for project update meetings twice per month. Any tasks that he or others are needed for are communicated via email, etc. The company handbook is posted on the companies intranet and accessible to him and others around the country. Communication between employees or with supervisors is done via email, phone and e-chat.

You may not know people who work out of their home and visit the office once or twice a month. One anecdotal story is not significant in and of itself but consider I'm just one person; surely there are others in the IT/IS world who have their own anecdotes as well. Those anecdotes add up.

I'm out, the caffeine is wearing out.