Please order in english...

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Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
1,746
0
86
As the joke goes, those who speak more than one language are multi-lingual, while those who speak only one are Americans. Quite frankly, I am disappointed in the common perception that English is the official language and the rest of the world should speak enough American English to interact with U.S. citizens. That attitude smacks of snobbery and ignorance. Travelers who don't even bother learning a few choice phrases of the languages of countries they visit are effectively relegating native speakers of that language to second-class status during their transactions. In 1776, the language of diplomats was French, a status English has only recently enjoyed in the last sixty years, thereabouts. Yet, somehow, people are already convinced there will never be a need for any other language.
Shelving ones own heritage language in favor of an "official" language is akin to betraying your own family history. Language is not only a source of pride, but also a part of a culture and history. The heritage language becomes a source of embarrassment, and children deliberately forget and distance themselves from that culture and language in order to fit in with the perceived "official" culture. That may ybe fine and dand when you possess the physical characteristics of native speakers of the "official" language, but what happens if your skin is the wrong color?
The removal of racist regulation in U.S. immigration policy after WWII and the subsequent increase of non-Western-European-born immigrants has actually allowed the use of languages other than English. German, for example, lost its use due to World War I as German speakers tried to avoid being associated with the enemy. Chinese disappeared after the mid-19th century when the Chinese became the first ethnic group denied citizenship, marriage rights, union rights, and, afterwards, the only ethnic group in U.S. history to be barred from immigration; despite only a few thousand having ever walked on U.S. soil.
English became the unofficial primary language of the U.S. only because the majority of those in power at the time spoke English. For example, Pennsylvania had a large enough German population to warrant a vote in the Senate as to whether or not Federal documents should be published in German. Throughout history, the virtual prohibition on immigrant tongues ranging from Italian to German to Chinese has only established English and a virtual elimination of family histories. In exchange, much of what are called "American traditions" are actually practices adopted from overseas and given English names. Christmas, for example, has strong roots in Scottish history.
If I recall correctly, there is a very good reason the U.S. government never established an official language. Official support for one language effectively raises wealthy native speakers to the political elite, turning all immigrants and even some native speakers with poor command of the official language into second class citizens. Wealth has a substantial influence on language acquisition; children of impoverished families enter the first grade with a vocabulary over a thousand words less than the average student, let alone students of wealthy families, and the gap in academic performance only widens as they progress through the school system. Traditionally, immigrants both legal and illegal have been impoverished, although recently, there have been a significant number of wealthy immigrants. At any rate, establishing an official language in an immigrant nation with a myriad of languages runs contrary to the principles of a democratic system by alienating the vast majority of the population from participating in politics.
Look to the history of the Native Americans. If I recall correctly, most, if not all, Native Americans practiced oral tradition. The institution of English-only education on an entire generation of Native Americans irreversibly destroyed thousands of years of history with a single stroke. Many Navajo codetalkers in WWII had to be taught their own language. To this day, archaeologists can hardly piece together any history of the Native Americans prior to the 19th century, the institution of the reservation system. Virtually everything we know of Native Americans, who might as well be an extinct people as a result, comes from archaeological digs. I believe the Iroquois managed to implement a rough writing system just before losing some 3/4ths of their entire population, so some records to exist for one of hundreds of nations.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if schools mandated American Sign Language as the official language. While the wealthy would still pay for private tutors for their children, the issues of innate superiority of one native language or another would be moot. The grammar structure of ASL is significantly different from English, warranting its status as a separate language altogether. Amusingly, keeping the class quiet would be relatively easy.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Originally posted by: thirtythree
I don't think it would be a big deal to just have a "Please order in English" sign, but the sign says "This is America: Please when ordering speak English." Seems kinda of arrogant and poorly worded to me. Also, how does he expect people who can't read English to be able to read the sign? A numbered menu with pictures would probably work out well enough.
It's obviously more of a political statement than sincere request.
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
1,746
0
86
Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Hmmmm..........well, my sig has represented the problem w/ illegal immigration for...a long time. (sad, really)

Illegal immigrants get rewarded. (everything free, instant access, turn your neighborhood into little mexico)

LEGAL immigrants get punished. (fees, fees, wait, wait, learn language & ASSIMILATE!!!!)

I don't think assimilation is a punishment, but it's obviously more work than simply converting your own neighborhood into little mexico.

I'm not a racist bastard for wanting things to get done right............but I sure am glad to finally see that this country's starting to fight back for what's right.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION..............IT ***IS*** A PROBLEM!!! :thumbsup:

Technically, enforcing an official language on a non-native population is racism. Moot point, though.

It has been my understanding that illegal immigrants represent a cheap labor force to fill jobs that Americans cannot do or feel they don't get paid enough to do. With one of the highest, if not the highest, labor wages in the world, I find it hard to believe any rational citizen would like to force unskilled American labor to take jobs currently done by illegal immigrants and help raise the cost of goods and services in the process. Still, I had a quick look at your sig link. While interesting, it does raise quite a few questions and points. Notably:

Adding up all the costs listed on the page, I get at most $117 billion annual expenditures. Quite a large sum until you factor in $2 trillion in Federal expenditures plus the $9 trillion or so in various state expenditures. $117 billion out of some $11 trillion GNP is somewhat insignificant. I believe that little venture in Iraq costs about as much each year.

While the cost of social services is high, I wonder how that figure compares to money spent on the little excursion to Iraq. Perhaps we should look at the amount of money spent on the entire public education system, which I believe is actually less than the social services figure, though I could be wrong.

While the "Cost of Incarcerations" figure doesn't specify whether the money is for the entire system, let's assume it is just for illegal immigrants. In that case, the figure comes out to a bit over $4000 per inmate. In the nation with the highest incarceration rate in the world, I'm not sure if about 353,000 inmates at $4000 per person is really a significant impact.

Calculating the cost of education for children of illegal immigrants, the figure is around $3500 per child. That's about the average annual cost per student, no matter their background.

665,655 illegal immigrant fugitives. Since many like to assert that illegal immigrants are uneducated and illiterate, I would like to ask exactly how do so many uneducated and illegal immigrants escape incarceration.

Similarly, over 10 million "skilled jobs" taken by illegal immigrants. Now, aside from my belief that "skilled jobs" require a professional certification/degree and a highly controversial visa, the title "skilled jobs" implies some degree of intelligence, training, and, well, "skill. So, how do purportedly uneducated and illegal immigrants who represent little more than a $100+ billion strain on the $11 trillion U.S. economy hold "skilled jobs?"


Oh, by the way, while I do oppose illegal immigration simply because the people bypass established laws and procedure, I do believe immigration is far too restricted in the United States. The average citizen is too concerned with keeping up with the Jones' and raising wages for himself to realize that doing so also raises wages for everybody else and puts him back in the same spot as before at best, or makes everyone a pauper at worst. That's the same reason why communism ultimately fails; somebody eventually realizes he's not going anywhere.
 

chuckywang

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
20,133
1
0
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: thirtythree
I don't think it would be a big deal to just have a "Please order in English" sign, but the sign says "This is America: Please when ordering speak English." Seems kinda of arrogant and poorly worded to me. Also, how does he expect people who can't read English to be able to read the sign? A numbered menu with pictures would probably work out well enough.
It's obviously more of a political statement than sincere request.

And that right there is the problem.
 

AgaBoogaBoo

Lifer
Feb 16, 2003
26,108
5
81
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: mugs
Just give them a cheesesteak. They'll pay for it and eat it. Doesn't matter what language they speak.

Because the fuckers don't just want a cheesesteak. They want it customized in their native tongue. We have the reverse of this down here, none of the fast food people speak english.

Still they need just a limited vocabulary, but try to order a burger here with no 'mayo/ketchup/mustard/etc' and they usually have to go in the back and find an english speaker.

I believe speaking english should be a requirement of being in the US. Not that you can't speak your own tongue, just that when you are speaking those that are not of your background there needs to be a common ground or the system breaks down quickly.
Don't blame the country, blame the people that hired those folks. It should be up to a business who they hire, and if they choose to hire non english speakers, they will see the reaction on their own.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Don't blame the country, blame the people that hired those folks. It should be up to a business who they hire, and if they choose to hire non english speakers, they will see the reaction on their own.

No blame...it's the way it is here. No one with half a brain would ever work in fast food when there are tons of better paying jobs to be had by even teenagers in my area.

To Sahakiel...you talk a lot, but I don't think you are understanding what you are actually talking about. For one, how would a LANGUAGE requirement be RACISM?

Also while the US does not have an official language, many states have adopted English as their's.

Still regardless of all this, whereever you are in the world it is looney to think that because you don't speak the common tongue there, that EVERYONE else should learn yours or be inconvenienced by your bumbling while trying to make a simple order in a busy place.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,481
17,952
126
Originally posted by: ironwing
This should have been left to the customers to deal with, not government. Boycotting the restaurant is the appropriate response if customers don't like the sign, not intervention by a government agency. A simple "I'll come back when the sign goes" statement, followed by walking out the door should do it.

But that would make the customer speak English :)
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81

Originally posted by: ironwing
This should have been left to the customers to deal with, not government. Boycotting the restaurant is the appropriate response if customers don't like the sign, not intervention by a government agency. A simple "I'll come back when the sign goes" statement, followed by walking out the door should do it.


i agree. this should be a customer issue. not a goverment issue.

if you do't like the issue then don't go there. if you want call the papers (wich it was in) and tell people if they do not agree with it don't shopt there. he will go out of business if its that big a deal.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,481
17,952
126
Originally posted by: Sahakiel
As the joke goes, those who speak more than one language are multi-lingual, while those who speak only one are Americans. Quite frankly, I am disappointed in the common perception that English is the official language and the rest of the world should speak enough American English to interact with U.S. citizens. That attitude smacks of snobbery and ignorance. Travelers who don't even bother learning a few choice phrases of the languages of countries they visit are effectively relegating native speakers of that language to second-class status during their transactions. In 1776, the language of diplomats was French, a status English has only recently enjoyed in the last sixty years, thereabouts. Yet, somehow, people are already convinced there will never be a need for any other language.
Shelving ones own heritage language in favor of an "official" language is akin to betraying your own family history. Language is not only a source of pride, but also a part of a culture and history. The heritage language becomes a source of embarrassment, and children deliberately forget and distance themselves from that culture and language in order to fit in with the perceived "official" culture. That may ybe fine and dand when you possess the physical characteristics of native speakers of the "official" language, but what happens if your skin is the wrong color?
The removal of racist regulation in U.S. immigration policy after WWII and the subsequent increase of non-Western-European-born immigrants has actually allowed the use of languages other than English. German, for example, lost its use due to World War I as German speakers tried to avoid being associated with the enemy. Chinese disappeared after the mid-19th century when the Chinese became the first ethnic group denied citizenship, marriage rights, union rights, and, afterwards, the only ethnic group in U.S. history to be barred from immigration; despite only a few thousand having ever walked on U.S. soil.
English became the unofficial primary language of the U.S. only because the majority of those in power at the time spoke English. For example, Pennsylvania had a large enough German population to warrant a vote in the Senate as to whether or not Federal documents should be published in German. Throughout history, the virtual prohibition on immigrant tongues ranging from Italian to German to Chinese has only established English and a virtual elimination of family histories. In exchange, much of what are called "American traditions" are actually practices adopted from overseas and given English names. Christmas, for example, has strong roots in Scottish history.
If I recall correctly, there is a very good reason the U.S. government never established an official language. Official support for one language effectively raises wealthy native speakers to the political elite, turning all immigrants and even some native speakers with poor command of the official language into second class citizens. Wealth has a substantial influence on language acquisition; children of impoverished families enter the first grade with a vocabulary over a thousand words less than the average student, let alone students of wealthy families, and the gap in academic performance only widens as they progress through the school system. Traditionally, immigrants both legal and illegal have been impoverished, although recently, there have been a significant number of wealthy immigrants. At any rate, establishing an official language in an immigrant nation with a myriad of languages runs contrary to the principles of a democratic system by alienating the vast majority of the population from participating in politics.
Look to the history of the Native Americans. If I recall correctly, most, if not all, Native Americans practiced oral tradition. The institution of English-only education on an entire generation of Native Americans irreversibly destroyed thousands of years of history with a single stroke. Many Navajo codetalkers in WWII had to be taught their own language. To this day, archaeologists can hardly piece together any history of the Native Americans prior to the 19th century, the institution of the reservation system. Virtually everything we know of Native Americans, who might as well be an extinct people as a result, comes from archaeological digs. I believe the Iroquois managed to implement a rough writing system just before losing some 3/4ths of their entire population, so some records to exist for one of hundreds of nations.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if schools mandated American Sign Language as the official language. While the wealthy would still pay for private tutors for their children, the issues of innate superiority of one native language or another would be moot. The grammar structure of ASL is significantly different from English, warranting its status as a separate language altogether. Amusingly, keeping the class quiet would be relatively easy.

Me think the biggest problem is that US lawmakers still have not made American English the official language. That should cut down a lot of these nonsense.

Secondly, English is still recognised as the international language for communication. Not Mandarin, Spanish nor Pig English. Almost every traveller try to speak the native tongue, failing that, they try to use English. For the people living in USA, there is no excuse to not learn English unless you are near retirement age and learning another language is impossible. For thsoe that don't even want to try, they can cook their own cheesesteak sandwich.
 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,506
2
81
Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
If he's finding that many people who speak other languages, how about menus in their own language? Maybe there's a reason he didn't do that, but with a few creative changes, you can at least offer more people an option to eat there.

Sounds like it would be good for business to me but that should be his choice as the restaurant owner.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: Soybomb
Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
If he's finding that many people who speak other languages, how about menus in their own language? Maybe there's a reason he didn't do that, but with a few creative changes, you can at least offer more people an option to eat there.

Sounds like it would be good for business to me but that should be his choice as the restaurant owner.

how many should he have? bu tyeah it seems like a smart move to have them made in the most popular languages. then they can point or say the number.

but if he does not want to i don't think its anyones business to decide bu this.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,332
12,915
136
if you're in america, you speak english. plain and simple. you speak french when you're in france and german when you're in germany, so why should it be ANY different here?

to demand others to speak english is absurd, EXCEPT when they are in OUR country. i would never travel abroad and expect others to know english - i would expect that i speak THEIR language.

for those that say "they want to preserve their heritage/culture" - they can preserve it at home, like so many other people do. it is not the state's or government's job to make sure these people can speak english (with exception of the education system).
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
if you're in america, you speak english. plain and simple. you speak french when you're in france and german when you're in germany, so why should it be ANY different here?

to demand others to speak english is absurd, EXCEPT when they are in OUR country. i would never travel abroad and expect others to know english - i would expect that i speak THEIR language.

for those that say "they want to preserve their heritage/culture" - they can preserve it at home, like so many other people do. it is not the state's or government's job to make sure these people can speak english (with exception of the education system).

Most Americans speak English when they are in France and Germany. Where did you take your analogy lessons?
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,481
17,952
126
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
if you're in america, you speak english. plain and simple. you speak french when you're in france and german when you're in germany, so why should it be ANY different here?

to demand others to speak english is absurd, EXCEPT when they are in OUR country. i would never travel abroad and expect others to know english - i would expect that i speak THEIR language.

for those that say "they want to preserve their heritage/culture" - they can preserve it at home, like so many other people do. it is not the state's or government's job to make sure these people can speak english (with exception of the education system).

Most Americans speak English when they are in France and Germany. Where did you take your analogy lessons?

That's because English is recognised as the international language of trade. Still won't get you very far though when you are in France :)
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
To be honest I severely doubt that Geno's had a problem with too many people trying to order in Spanish... Seriously... A mexican who doesn't speak english and wants a cheesesteak from a place, just orders it. He says cheesesteak the best he can and gives them money....

It isn't like they are ordering in spanish... this guy is just a dick looking for some publicity on a hot topic. He wants get the press nuts and tons of free advertising...
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,332
12,915
136
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
if you're in america, you speak english. plain and simple. you speak french when you're in france and german when you're in germany, so why should it be ANY different here?

to demand others to speak english is absurd, EXCEPT when they are in OUR country. i would never travel abroad and expect others to know english - i would expect that i speak THEIR language.

for those that say "they want to preserve their heritage/culture" - they can preserve it at home, like so many other people do. it is not the state's or government's job to make sure these people can speak english (with exception of the education system).

Most Americans speak English when they are in France and Germany. Where did you take your analogy lessons?

that would be one of the many reasons we're disliked abroad :p