Please help me to want to keep using Linux.

[geekender]

For some reason, people keep going on and on about how secure Linux/Unix/BSD are. I will concede that out of the box they do limit the user to his/her own home directory and all other commands have to be run as root (Administrator). However, if John Q. User decides that they will change their personal account from an administrator to a user account on Windows, how is this not the same thing? Where *nix has sudo and su to run as root, Windows has the runas command. Therefore, the user can set up a user and admin account, log in only as user (use runas to accomplish anything that is restricted) and have the same security.

Windows has many more applications that are used. "...but all those open source applications are available...." Yes, they are. However, none are truly a "killer app" that are worth switching for. Every time I try to go the Linux route, I end up with bad drivers, slow gaming, and having to dual boot to use the programs I need. I use Cedega (Wine-x) for gaming and wine for Quicken and Dreamweaver. What is the advantage of switching when I have to use apps to run apps?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing with Linux. Slackware is cool to tweak, Gentoo is a good weekend project, and Ubuntu is nice for Grandma since she only needs firefox and openoffice up and running and I don't have to worry about antivirus.......hey, why don't I have to worry about antivirus? Oh, that's right.....because there are so few viruses for Linux that are popular. Of course, if everyone were running Linux as root the way we do Windows, that would change I am sure.

Anyhow, if you have any suggestions as to give me motivation to keep trying Linux, please do so. I really do enjoy Linux. I just get annoyed when I have to keep going back to Windows to actually be useful with my computer.

 

[kamper]

Use whatever you want to use. There's no point in forcing it.

 

[nweaver]

If you want to switch to linux, then quit using windows apps. Why use wine with a windows app when there are free alternatives that are just as good.

 

[Nothinman]

However, if John Q. User decides that they will change their personal account from an administrator to a user account on Windows, how is this not the same thing?

They are just about the same thing, but IME runas doesn't work as well as su or sudo so it can be a PITA.

Windows has many more applications that are used. "...but all those open source applications are available...." Yes, they are. However, none are truly a "killer app" that are worth switching for. Every time I try to go the Linux route, I end up with bad drivers, slow gaming, and having to dual boot to use the programs I need. I use Cedega (Wine-x) for gaming and wine for Quicken and Dreamweaver. What is the advantage of switching when I have to use apps to run apps?

There's not a single Windows app that I can think of that would make me want to run Windows any more., but if you're stuck running Windows apps you're probably best sticking with Windows too. Most Linux users use Linux apps and only look to Wine or Cedega as a very last restort. And IMO Linux drivers are better than their Windows counterparts in most cases.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing with Linux. Slackware is cool to tweak, Gentoo is a good weekend project, and Ubuntu is nice for Grandma since she only needs firefox and openoffice up and running and I don't have to worry about antivirus.......hey, why don't I have to worry about antivirus? Oh, that's right.....because there are so few viruses for Linux that are popular. Of course, if everyone were running Linux as root the way we do Windows, that would change I am sure.

Only one distro sets up the user as root out of the box and no one likes that distro, since you'd have to jump through a bunch of hoops in a normal distro to login to X as root most people won't do it. That's not to say people won't download the virus and run it manually or with sudo because the directions told them to, but at that point there's no way to help them.

Anyhow, if you have any suggestions as to give me motivation to keep trying Linux, please do so. I really do enjoy Linux. I just get annoyed when I have to keep going back to Windows to actually be useful with my computer.

Find alternatives to your Windows apps and you won't have to go back to Windows. You have to realize that Linux isn't Windows and as such it won't be a drop-in replacement.

 

[Robor]

Only 2 things keep me from totally switching to Linux. Gaming and online poker. I have a desktop system I use for gaming and I rarely play poker online anymore so no biggie. My 'server' is now running Fedora Core 4 and my laptop dual boots Ubuntu and WinXP Pro and for the past 2 months+ I have only booted to XP to patch it.

 

[drag]

The way things are setup for Linux is that it's usually easier for a average user to use a regular user account then using root.

A program that can't be used as regular user (for anything that is not access dangerous administrative stuff) account is considured fundamentally broken and will not be supported by anybody.

In comparision many windows applications, especially games, will not function properly with a non-administrative user account. Windows Home edition ships with the default user account being administrator.

So there is a big difference there.

And sudo and su actually work and are usefull, were as runas isn't so hot. Plus everybody is working as hard as they can to reduce the amount of work that is needed to be done as root to a absolute minimal amount. (see projects like Stateless Linux and Knoppix)

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: Robor
Only 2 things keep me from totally switching to Linux. Gaming and online poker. I have a desktop system I use for gaming and I rarely play poker online anymore so no biggie. My 'server' is now running Fedora Core 4 and my laptop dual boots Ubuntu and WinXP Pro and for the past 2 months+ I have only booted to XP to patch it.

Have you read this?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: Robor
Only 2 things keep me from totally switching to Linux. Gaming and online poker. I have a desktop system I use for gaming and I rarely play poker online anymore so no biggie. My 'server' is now running Fedora Core 4 and my laptop dual boots Ubuntu and WinXP Pro and for the past 2 months+ I have only booted to XP to patch it.

Have you read this?

Hmmm... I tried Full Tilt Poker and failed. That's where I have $$$ in right now. Maybe I'll give Ultimate Bet a try now.

Thanks!

Edit: Hmmm... Even found this (http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3827) so maybe Full Tilt Poker will work as well?

 

[scottws]

I've tried to move to Linux a few times and failed. It's always hardware related. I have an ATi Radeon 9800XT and you know how that can be with ATi drivers. I also have a Motorola WPCI810G wireless Ethernet adapter that isn't even recognized under Linux. Attempts to utilize the Windows driver with ndiswrapper have failed misearably.

Talk all you want about how easy Linux is... it's not for the user that's used MS-DOS since 2.01 and hasn't even had a sniff of UNIX, or MAX OS, or OS/2, or anything non-Microsoft. Installing programs in my experience was a hit-or-miss affair. I didn't know where anything resided. I couldn't play Linux 3-D games because my video drivers didn't install. Attempts to create kernel modules told me I needed the kernel source. Got that, needed the GCC compiler. Got that, it needed three other things. Got one of those, it needed three other things. Et cetera. After I finally succeeded getting my video drivers working, a subsequent upgrade of the driver brought me back to square one with it not working again after nearly a month spent getting it working the first time.

Linux is easy once you get things installed. But that's the catch, isn't it?

 

[Nothinman]

I've tried to move to Linux a few times and failed. It's always hardware related. I have an ATi Radeon 9800XT and you know how that can be with ATi drivers. I also have a Motorola WPCI810G wireless Ethernet adapter that isn't even recognized under Linux. Attempts to utilize the Windows driver with ndiswrapper have failed misearably.

Then complain to the hardware manufacturer or return them for cards that don't suck.

Talk all you want about how easy Linux is... it's not for the user that's used MS-DOS since 2.01 and hasn't even had a sniff of UNIX, or MAX OS, or OS/2, or anything non-Microsoft.

Actually if you had used real DOS back then you'll probably be more able to grock Linux since you'll have used a CLI in the past even if it was the crappy one that MS produced.

nstalling programs in my experience was a hit-or-miss affair

Yea, 'apt-get install firefox' is real difficult. And if you want to browse the available packages you can use aptitude or synaptic. It's not the same as installing things on Windows, but it's generally easier and more reliable.

I didn't know where anything resided.

You don't need to, the package puts a menu entry in all of the installed Window Managers so you don't even have to know what the binary is called, if it doesn't then it's a bug and needs to be reported.

I couldn't play Linux 3-D games because my video drivers didn't install

Again, that's ATI's fault. I have 2 machines with nVidia cards and have no problems at all.

Attempts to create kernel modules told me I needed the kernel source. Got that, needed the GCC compiler. Got that, it needed three other things. Got one of those, it needed three other things. Et cetera. After I finally succeeded getting my video drivers working, a subsequent upgrade of the driver brought me back to square one with it not working again after nearly a month spent getting it working the first time.

Most distros have precompiled versions of the non-free drivers, stick to those and you won't have these problems.

Linux is easy once you get things installed. But that's the catch, isn't it?

Not really, I've had the installation at home for over 6 years now and the one on this notebook probably over 2 years. The catch is that you have to be willing to learn how things are done in Linux because if you keep expecting it to act like Windows you're only setting yourself up to be disappointed and frustrated.

 

[scottws]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
Yea, 'apt-get install firefox' is real difficult. And if you want to browse the available packages you can use aptitude or synaptic. It's not the same as installing things on Windows, but it's generally easier and more reliable.

Actually, I'm referring more to RPM in FC2. That's the last time I spent a lot of time with Linux. Recently, I tried Ubuntu, but can't get my wireless card working. Therefore I doubt "apt-get install firefox" would do me much good.

 

[Brentx]

Originally posted by: scottws
I've tried to move to Linux a few times and failed. It's always hardware related. I have an ATi Radeon 9800XT and you know how that can be with ATi drivers. I also have a Motorola WPCI810G wireless Ethernet adapter that isn't even recognized under Linux. Attempts to utilize the Windows driver with ndiswrapper have failed misearably.

Talk all you want about how easy Linux is... it's not for the user that's used MS-DOS since 2.01 and hasn't even had a sniff of UNIX, or MAX OS, or OS/2, or anything non-Microsoft. Installing programs in my experience was a hit-or-miss affair. I didn't know where anything resided. I couldn't play Linux 3-D games because my video drivers didn't install. Attempts to create kernel modules told me I needed the kernel source. Got that, needed the GCC compiler. Got that, it needed three other things. Got one of those, it needed three other things. Et cetera. After I finally succeeded getting my video drivers working, a subsequent upgrade of the driver brought me back to square one with it not working again after nearly a month spent getting it working the first time.

Linux is easy once you get things installed. But that's the catch, isn't it?

I will give you that. Linux can be hard to configure if you have weird devices, or "soft" devices, where half of the devices calculations are offloaded to the CPU. However, once you really get the hang of Linux, and know where things start running and how to edit and find the proper config files to edit, everything starts to fall into place.

I started using Linux mainstream about 6 months ago, and I just finished configuring a SAMBA server based on Debian without any GUI installed. Just keep at it and you will eventually get it. There were many times in those 6 months where I would have liked to go back to Windows, but I wouldn't let myself do it (unless I needed to game or write up a power point presentation ).

 

[Nothinman]

Actually, I'm referring more to RPM in FC2. That's the last time I spent a lot of time with Linux. Recently, I tried Ubuntu, but can't get my wireless card working. Therefore I doubt "apt-get install firefox" would do me much good.

AFAIK Fedora Core has included yum for a long time now, you should have been able to do 'yum install mozilla-firefox' or whatever the package is called. And if the wifi you're talking about is that WPCI810G card then it's your fault for buying it, it's got a Broadcom chipset and Broadcom is about the worst company with regards to Linux support. Not that their hardware is actually good when it's supported either, but that's beside the point. From what I found in 2s of googling you should be able to get it to work with ndiswrapper, but I've never used it myself. And on the bright side, there is a beta quality GPL Broadcom driver being worked on so your card might 'just work' in a few months even without Broadcom's help.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: scottws
I've tried to move to Linux a few times and failed. It's always hardware related. I have an ATi Radeon 9800XT and you know how that can be with ATi drivers. I also have a Motorola WPCI810G wireless Ethernet adapter that isn't even recognized under Linux. Attempts to utilize the Windows driver with ndiswrapper have failed misearably.

Talk all you want about how easy Linux is... it's not for the user that's used MS-DOS since 2.01 and hasn't even had a sniff of UNIX, or MAX OS, or OS/2, or anything non-Microsoft. Installing programs in my experience was a hit-or-miss affair. I didn't know where anything resided. I couldn't play Linux 3-D games because my video drivers didn't install. Attempts to create kernel modules told me I needed the kernel source. Got that, needed the GCC compiler. Got that, it needed three other things. Got one of those, it needed three other things. Et cetera. After I finally succeeded getting my video drivers working, a subsequent upgrade of the driver brought me back to square one with it not working again after nearly a month spent getting it working the first time.

Linux is easy once you get things installed. But that's the catch, isn't it?

Umm, Gentoo and portage automatically download and install all dependencies of a program with the emerge command (emerge -av <program name>) It all depends on what you are used to. If you like the idea of being able to download any .exe .vbs off of the internet and run it by double-clicking and have it walk you through a graphical install menu, then stick with Windows. As a Netadmin Windows isn't really an option. I keep one box in my office with multiple versions of Windows and 1 box that is a server 2k3 PDC (although my SAMBA PDC is used for my full duty domain) so that if I need to so something on-site for a client that is Windows only I know how to do it before I get out there.

 

[scottws]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Actually, I'm referring more to RPM in FC2. That's the last time I spent a lot of time with Linux. Recently, I tried Ubuntu, but can't get my wireless card working. Therefore I doubt "apt-get install firefox" would do me much good.

AFAIK Fedora Core has included yum for a long time now, you should have been able to do 'yum install mozilla-firefox' or whatever the package is called.

If yum existed on FC2, I never heard about it when I was messing with FC2.

Originally posted by: Nothinman
And if the wifi you're talking about is that WPCI810G card then it's your fault for buying it, it's got a Broadcom chipset and Broadcom is about the worst company with regards to Linux support.

Oh, I agree. But at the time I bought it I was a 100% Windows user with Linux considerations basically non-existant.

Originally posted by: Nothinman
From what I found in 2s of googling you should be able to get it to work with ndiswrapper, but I've never used it myself.

Of course I Google searched - extensively. I found a few sets of instructions. And I tried them, and they didn't work.

Again, all I'm trying to say is that Linux is not as easy as some people make it out to be. That's definately been my experience. I didn't expect Linux to be like Windows (imagine my surprise when I found that FC2's GNOME interface was very similar to Windows), but that wasn't my trouble. My trouble is that installing things didn't work like it was supposed to. Following command-line instructions online was not simple ABCs. You had multiple versions to contend with (kernel version, kernel-source version, GCC version, driver version, X version) and a single difference in one of those things compared to the instructions would throw everything off, and then instructions for my exact setup did not seem to exist.

 

[geekender]

I guess what is boils down to for me is convenience. Is Linux a feasable alternative? Sure....provided I am willing to compromise. We use Exchange servers on our domain. Why? Because they got a good deal a while back and don't want to retrain everyone on a new system. Evolution is good for pseudo-connecting to Exchange (it actually uses the web interface and converts it to an Outlook-like interface.) My Treo 600 will work with XP flawlessly, but not with Linux. It takes an hour to configure Linux to work correctly. My Thinkpad T41 will install XP and I can even play World of Warcraft or Battlefield 1942....but there is no 3D support for the ATI 7500 mobile in Linux.

Now, on my home machine I have an NVidia 6800. It runs Debian and has high framerates in gaming and I am happy. However, it took a lot of work to set it up. It is not something I would have one of my students do without several quarters of training.

My personal opinion? For what it is worth anyway....I think that the collective WE of the Linux community ENJOY the fact that we can run Linux and others have a problem doing it. That means that we are somehow smarter, or better than they are at something. We don't want it to be easy, then everyone would be doing it. Then it would be....well....Windows.

 

[stash]

Hey, there's a new marketing angle for Linux. Linux will make you smart!

Hell, why not "Linux will get you laid!"

wow.

 

[Nothinman]

If yum existed on FC2, I never heard about it when I was messing with FC2.

I don't remember when yum was introduced, but it's been in FC for quite a while so complaining about RPMs now a days is like complaining about having to set IRQs manually on ISA cards.

Oh, I agree. But at the time I bought it I was a 100% Windows user with Linux considerations basically non-existant.

Then you don't really have any room to complain do you =) It's not like you'd expect it to work on a Mac either, would you?

Again, all I'm trying to say is that Linux is not as easy as some people make it out to be.

It is if you have the right hardware. And Windows isn't as easy as people say either, try installing Windows onto a new SATA drive without a floppy, oh wait you can't unless you slipstream the drivers onto the CD. Boy that's intuitive, isn't it?

Hey, there's a new marketing angle for Linux. Linux will make you smart!

If you're actually willing to put the time in to learn, sure it will.

 

[stash]

If you're actually willing to put the time in to learn, sure it will.

That's a good philosophy for well, anything. Including Windows.

 

[Nothinman]

That's a good philosophy for well, anything. Including Windows.

I never said otherwise =)

 

[Robor]

I don't think Linux (Ubuntu & Fedora Core 4) are simple but it's never easy to learn the ins and outs of an operating system that's totally new to you.

One thing I will say, while I'm new and sometimes frustrated with it I think Linux today is easier than the old DOS, Win 3.x, and WinNT days. Remember allocating memory to maximize that 640K and troubleshooting IRQ conflicts? Or the fun of trying to get 3D acceleration and a Soundblaster working in WinNT? Oh, the joys!

 

[Atheus]

The thing is, most people never have to install windows, it comes with their PC, or someone else does it for them. What we need is for Dell to start selling linux boxes with everything pre-installed, a very simple menu system, a GUI version of apt that works, and a brightly colored book that starts "So, you're new to Linux..."

 

[Nothinman]

a very simple menu system

Gnome's menu is already extremely simple, infact a lot of people complain that it's too oversimplified.

a GUI version of apt that works

Is there something wrong with Synaptic?

 

[cleverhandle]

Originally posted by: geekender
I think that the collective WE of the Linux community ENJOY the fact that we can run Linux and others have a problem doing it. That means that we are somehow smarter, or better than they are at something. We don't want it to be easy, then everyone would be doing it.

Speak for yourself. I genuinely find Linux easier to use than Windows. Not always in the sense that "easier = takes less time" (though that's frequently true, too). But "easier = less frustrating." Once in a while, I have to do some work to get a new piece of hardware working or to fix a problem introduced by a new software version. But at least when I'm doing that I feel like the system makes sense. If something breaks, I can see where it breaks and why it breaks. And if I can't fix it myself, I know the places to look to find people that can. When Windows breaks, you're often just plain screwed. The error messages suck, there's frequently no definitive answer on what they mean or why they occur, and people that truly understand the problem (as opposed to just knowing some trick or workaround) are few and far between.

I've been running the same installation of Debian for almost 3 years now. I ironed out the basic configuration problems long ago, and since then the system just works, and keeps on working. A couple years back it really clicked with me when I finally decided I didn't like certain aspects of the GNOME interface. Just little stuff, but there simply wasn't a config option to do what I wanted. So I dug around in the code and made it work the way I wanted. I wrote up a few other scripts to satisfy similar minor needs. And that's the beauty of it all - if you have a need and some knowledge, you can build a Linux solution. In Windows, you're limited by programs you can't change, components you can't remove, documentation you don't have. You can have a great idea, but have no path to get there without reinventing the wheel.

So that's why I use Linux. And, IMO, if that explanation doesn't have any appeal to you at all, then I think Linux really isn't for you. Which is fine. Windows is fast, powerful, has tons of good apps, and (these days) is even pretty stable and secure. You don't run Linux (as a personal desktop, at least) to compete on those counts. You run it because you want an OS you can understand, modify, and build on to meet your needs.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Nothinman


There's not a single Windows app that I can think of that would make me want to run Windows any more., but if you're stuck running Windows apps you're probably best sticking with Windows too. Most Linux users use Linux apps and only look to Wine or Cedega as a very last restort. And IMO Linux drivers are better than their Windows counterparts in most cases.

No way. My music, as much as I hate saying it, sounds a thousand times better in Windows than in Ubuntu. Whatever the widnwos driver software for the nforce2 does, it does it well because it sounds very nice, even for 128kmp3s. On linux, don't even bother with it. Heck even if I play some High Quality music I can't turn the volume over 1/2 in the Gnome Taskbar because of the distortion I start getting (I leave my speakers on 25% Monsoon MH505s)

I always figured it was immaturity in the Linux OSS/ALSA (or that is what Drag told me long long ago when I asked this)