Please Explain: The disappearing middle class (With Poll)

[Drekce]

In the thread about the PBS special on the working poor a lot of people were mentioning how they think that the middle class in America is disappearing. I certainly do not see this, but have not done any research to verify my opinion.

I live in Orlando, FL. There are hundreds of square miles of what i perceive to be "middle class" housing. Much more than there are poor or extremely wealthy areas. I travel a lot for work and see this same thing everywhere I go. Based on this I do not buy the bumber sticker saying "The disappearing middle class."

I will agree that in really large cities (NY, Chicago, etc.) there is a more apparent dividing line between rich, poor and middle class, as housing costs are so expensive in them. But, that is only in the cities. The suberbs are composed almost entirely of middle class, and many of them have nice homes.

Someone please tell me (with proof) how the middle class is disappearing in America!

 

[DeadByDawn]

I live in the midwest and what I see is somewhat stagnant wages with rapidly increasing health care and energy prices among the people I know.

 

[spidey07]

here's a hint.

It's not.

Just like all the other scare BS tactics coming out it is just another attempt by the media to swing public opinion.

Just go to the department of labor, look at the statistics. You'll clearly see no "disapperance" of middle class. If anything you'll see people are making more money and spending a little less.

 

[JS80]

Yes it is, all the middle class are becoming upper middle class.

 

[PingSpike]

The only thing that really rings true about that to me is that high paying manufactoring jobs that don't require any sort of degree aren't as common anymore. But I guess people will just have to adapt.

 

[Drekce]

Originally posted by: DeadByDawn
I live in the midwest and what I see is somewhat stagnant wages with rapidly increasing health care and energy prices among the people I know.

While healthcare and energy costs have increased in the past few years, they have not to the point of causing a massive shift in the "financial class" of many Americans. Okay, gas is expensive, but for an average family of 4 the increase of gasoline to $3.00/gallon (from $1.50) may increase their yearly cost by $900. If you add in heating costs (lets go high and say $1000) that is not even $2k/year.

Originally posted by: JS80
Yes it is, all the middle class are becoming upper middle class.

I completely agree. Look at all of the "McMansions" popping up everywhere.

 

[Drekce]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
The only thing that really rings true about that to me is that high paying manufactoring jobs that don't require any sort of degree aren't as common anymore. But I guess people will just have to adapt.

That is good news. It will require more people to go to college, which should in turn increase our corporate body of knowledge and allow us to be an even more productive country.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Drekce

Originally posted by: DeadByDawn
I live in the midwest and what I see is somewhat stagnant wages with rapidly increasing health care and energy prices among the people I know.

While healthcare and energy costs have increased in the past few years, they have not to the point of causing a massive shift in the "financial class" of many Americans. Okay, gas is expensive, but for an average family of 4 the increase of gasoline to $3.00/gallon (from $1.50) may increase their yearly cost by $900. If you add in heating costs (lets go high and say $1000) that is not even $2k/year.

Originally posted by: JS80
Yes it is, all the middle class are becoming upper middle class.

I completely agree. Look at all of the "McMansions" popping up everywhere.

And the "low class" which mainly consist of complacent people who don't want to advance themselves, stay there or move up slightly, well, because they're complacent. Then they get jealous and vote a democrat into office to raise taxes and increase social welfare and stifle the economy.

 

[sao123]

in city areas the view maybe isnt changing as much... but in the lowly rural areas... it most definately is.

in places where the economy is mostly small business and not enterprise... or where people drive 30+ miles to work daily... the effect is definately there.

Wages are dropping and taxes & prices are rising.


30 miles to work per day = roughly $250 per month (assuming an average of 20mpg @ $3.00 per gallon). Thats 3k per year... definately a signnificant impact.



I guess my point is only 45% of america is in/near cities/suburbs.
Its the rural middleclass really suffering.

 

[torpid]

Well, I think poor vs rich areas are part of the problem. This insane housing boom has totally divided people along income and had some impact on the middle class. All the housing being built even here in madison is just outrageously expensive. Either you pay a crapload for a house or you live in a poorer area. There doesn't seem to be much in between anymore.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Drekce

Originally posted by: DeadByDawn
I live in the midwest and what I see is somewhat stagnant wages with rapidly increasing health care and energy prices among the people I know.

While healthcare and energy costs have increased in the past few years, they have not to the point of causing a massive shift in the "financial class" of many Americans. Okay, gas is expensive, but for an average family of 4 the increase of gasoline to $3.00/gallon (from $1.50) may increase their yearly cost by $900. If you add in heating costs (lets go high and say $1000) that is not even $2k/year.

Originally posted by: JS80
Yes it is, all the middle class are becoming upper middle class.

I completely agree. Look at all of the "McMansions" popping up everywhere.

And the "low class" which mainly consist of complacent people who don't want to advance themselves, stay there or move up slightly, well, because they're complacent. Then they get jealous and vote a democrat into office to raise taxes and increase social welfare and stifle the economy.

Yeah clinton had a realstifled economy! Also, it is much better to bring 100s of billion to the country's debt rather than raise taxes to pay for things! That doesn't do ANYTHING harmful!

 

[acemcmac]

a good part of the middle-class became what I'd consider "upper middle class" in the last ten years, but way more families who I'd have considered solidly middle class have become lower-middle class in the last decade.

The fact that the majority kids of the upper-middle class and even middle-class kids don't have the financial dicipline to make ends meet on a lower-middle class income is what's going to keep the a lot generaton that entered the workforce during the dot-com era from ever achieving the financial stability of their parents.

 

[Savij]

I've done the research (census data and such). If i remember correctly it's gotten something like 5 (maybe 1) percent smaller in the last thirty or so years (since reagan basically). It's not anywhere near as big a problem as it's made out to be, but it's not the trend that we want to be seeing.

Edit: This is not to be confused with the middle class is worse off than before. People are living better (who the hell had 3 and 4 tvs per household in the 70s?), but the "middle class" is getting smaller.

My opinion reflects the thoughts of a person who felt that it was a BS scare tactic. I still feel like it's a scare tactic, but I have to admit that I see where that claim can be made and agree that as a long term trend it's not something we want to see continue.

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: Drekce

I live in Orlando, FL. There are hundreds of square miles of what i perceive to be "middle class" housing. Much more than there are poor or extremely wealthy areas. I travel a lot for work and see this same thing everywhere I go. Based on this I do not buy the bumber sticker saying "The disappearing middle class."

You can get a "upper middle-class" house in FL for $250k+ whereas for the same price you get a shack or similiar in CA or in Chicago.

Also..especially FL is full of trailer-trash areas. I dont know whether the middle-class is disappearing - fact stands anyway that there is still (growing ?) a huge amount of very poor people.
And...your observation of "many suburban middle-class" houses/families would only make sense if (at the same time) you KNOW that the number of very poor people living in the Ghetto/low-incoming areas is NOT rising. (Sou you could say the middle-class is growing but the low-income NOT)

In my opinion the number of poor people might grow even faster than the middle-class...there a are many areas all around the country which were supposed to be "middle-class" neighbourhoods years ago which slowly got run down by more and more poor people moving into those areas - and the "middle-class" disappearing (moving away ?)

 

[Dr. Detroit]

The rising costs of energy, housing, and healthcare is causing the middle class to shrink. Wages have not increased as much as costs.

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: spidey07

If anything you'll see people are making more money and spending a little less.

If they would truly make "more money" they had no REASON to spend less..because they had more money available

How do those statistics look "making more money" in relation to cost of living/inflation/cost of gas ?

What you say contradicts everything i know regarding the current economy...and frankly, i just dont believe you

 

[spidey07]

Flexy,

go look at the department of labor statistics for the last decade. That should be a big eye opener.

by spending less, I was meaning inflation has been low. then again I'm no expert in economics. I just play one on ATOT.

 

[CptObvious]

I live in the Orlando area and I find a lot of ghetto areas. It's probably just overshadowed in your view from the housing development boom.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

In my area there's a line at which point you can't afford a house, but can easily afford an apartment with money to spare.

When the entry price to a house is $300k. You need to make about $60,000 to really afford to buy a house. But you can live comfortably in an apartment making $30,000 a year. So if you're within that range you're kinda hosed. And that seems to be a signifigant gap. Most home buyers are double income families. A single guy is virtually pushed out of the housing market.

 

[erub]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
In my area there's a line at which point you can't afford a house, but can easily afford an apartment with money to spare.

When the entry price to a house is $300k. You need to make about $60,000 to really afford to buy a house. But you can live comfortably in an apartment making $30,000 a year. So if you're within that range you're kinda hosed. And that seems to be a signifigant gap. Most home buyers are double income families. A single guy is virtually pushed out of the housing market.

now wait a second, shouldn't the average semi-motivated college graduate be making 60K within 5 years after college? engineers make that amount starting right out..also there's always the part where you could buy that 300K house, and get a roomate..do you really need 3 bdrm/2 bath for yourself?

 

[DaShen]

You don't see the effects because more people are taking up 2 jobs to stay in the middle class, some can sustain with having both genders working (2 income families), but it is becoming more common for families to have one parent working 2 or more jobs to stay middle class.

Any time you have inflation of prices and more import than export in revenues, you are goign to severely limit your middle class. No big deal though, in a few years, the U.S. will have to reevaluate everything or risk economic collapse like the mid 80s. The U.S. will rebound and big companies like Walmart.... will get split up.

 

[BurnItDwn]

The middle class isn't disappearing, however, it is shrinking (and it has shrunk already.)

Over the last two decades or so ...
Lots of towns across the nation used to have well paying blue collar work at factories, etc. Many of those factories have closed down. Some of those people were able to get work at a similar pay, however most are finding jobs that pay significantly less.

In the last 10 years or so ...
Real estate prices have shot through the roof. Wages have gone up, but at a MUCH slowwer rate than real estate.

Also, in all of the suburbs (at least around Chicago) there are MANY apartments and trailer parks that are less than pristine. I suppose if you count these as "middle class" then the middle class isn't shrinking, and just the difinition of the word middle class has changed.

 

[elektrolokomotive]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
In my area there's a line at which point you can't afford a house, but can easily afford an apartment with money to spare.

When the entry price to a house is $300k. You need to make about $60,000 to really afford to buy a house. But you can live comfortably in an apartment making $30,000 a year. So if you're within that range you're kinda hosed. And that seems to be a signifigant gap. Most home buyers are double income families. A single guy is virtually pushed out of the housing market.

This is exactly the situation I'm in right now. Hooray for the Seattle-area housing market!! I'll probably wind up with a condo.

 

[thomsbrain]

"middle-class" in florida would have you barely alive in CA. on top of that, orlando has millions (billions?) of dollars of tourism money pouring into the city year-round, so it's not exactly representative of the nation. you have to realize that with more people in CA than any other state, we throw the "curve" off a lot, and you simply MUST be making over six figures to own even a shack here. i work in silicon valley, where we think of "everyone" being rich, but my work takes me all over the city, and i'd estimate 50-75% of the metro area is not somewhere you'd want to park your car at night. those people would be "middle-class" or even "upper-middle-class" by many people's income standards, but here they are literally one paycheck away from being thrown out of their roach motel. to live the typical "middle-class" lifestyle, you need household incomes in the $150-200K range. that means that regardless of the income on paper, we basically have two kinds of people here: poor people, and rich people.

with 4-year degrees becoming more and more important to get any job that doesn't require a mop, the entry "fee" to anything remotely resembling a middle class life has become a lot steeper for many people. i think people on this forum need to realize that they represent a VERY small slice of the population. MOST people are NOT engineers. MOST people do not, and will not ever get a degree. and in most of the areas where you can get that $50-60K entry-level engineer job, you'll be living in a crappy apartment and driving a crappy used car to get by.

those of you who are older and rode the housing boom have left the rest of us behind. you can sell your house and buy a different one, but us youngsters can't enter the market. that means that by simple virtue of having graduated 10 years ago, you can live a middle-class life, but people who are graduating now with the SAME degree will NOT be able to live that lifestyle.

 

[sourceninja]

All I know is the ghetto grows every year in my area. I see more and more crime, more and more run down houses with people who dont care. And this also seems to follow the increase in minoritys in the area. So there are two areas of town. Good areas with houses over 200k and bad areas with appartments that get broken into, and run down houses under 80k.