superstition
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- Feb 2, 2008
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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So then I take it that people who have been victims of crimes and seek redress from the perps are practicing victim mentality, right?
Not necessarily. Telling everyone of xyz that they are a victim because of xyz is perpetuating the victim mentality. What if a member or xyz doesn't think they are a victim? What if the "offense" is something percieved and not quantitative? Hmm...
You mean like the onerous burden of suffering you experience in your perceived world phony victims?
eh? english much? victim card cut your tongue?
Originally posted by: 1prophet
The flea syndrome.
To train a flea put it in a box with a lid, it will continually jump and hit its head until it realizes it can't jump higher than the lid and adjust its jump accordingly.
Then you remove the lid but the flea never jumps higher than the height of the box after that, the physical barrier has been replaced by a psychological one.
Along comes a flea that never had a barrier placed over its head and can't understand why the previous flea can't jump out of the box since it wasn't there to witness the lid in place over its head.
So the flea that can jump says to the one that can't "what's wrong with you, there is nothing over your head holding you back, you expect me to come give you a handout, jump out of that box yourself and if you can't you must be lazy and like it in there"
You in your shell are you waiting for someone to rescue you from yourself. Don't be disappointed when no one comes.
Don't blame me you didn't get it [3x]
I already told you, that falling is easy its getting back up that becomes the problem, becomes the problem and if you don't believe that you can find a way out you become the problem, become the problem.
You, all alone, are you waiting for someone to make you whole? Can't you see aren't you tired of this dysfunctional routine.
I already told you, that falling is easy its getting back up that becomes the problem, becomes the problem and if you don't believe that you can find a way out you become the problem.
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
In another thread someone used the term victim mentality as though they knew what it meant and had some application to something I said, a contention I found preposterous, but one I won't argue here. But the result was to try to consider what is the term being used for. Clearly it has become some sort of catch phrase or assumed reality you can pull out of a hat and apply like slime to something you don't like. "Oh he's playing the victim card." :roll:
So what are your thoughts on what 'victim mentality' means? Does it mean anything at all or is it just a way to stereotype so one doesn't have to have any mentality at all. 'I put you in the 'victim mentality' box; I win.
One form of victim mentality is the Stockholm Syndrome where the victim sympathizes with the victimizer. What other kinds are there and how are they used politically?
Originally posted by: hellokeith
originally posted by the band Staind in the song "Falling"
You in your shell are you waiting for someone to rescue you from yourself. Don't be disappointed when no one comes.
Don't blame me you didn't get it [3x]
I already told you, that falling is easy its getting back up that becomes the problem, becomes the problem and if you don't believe that you can find a way out you become the problem, become the problem.
You, all alone, are you waiting for someone to make you whole? Can't you see aren't you tired of this dysfunctional routine.
I already told you, that falling is easy its getting back up that becomes the problem, becomes the problem and if you don't believe that you can find a way out you become the problem.
So simple and yet so incredibly profound.
Originally posted by: hellokeith
You are missing the distinctions:
"Victim Mentality" belongs to the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged). Falling down is easy. We all make mistakes. We all make poor choices. We all get the shaft in life sometimes. We all get treated like crap, beaten up, stolen from, and lied to by advertisers/government/supposed-loved-ones. But at some point, if you don't get up, then you become the problem, and no amount of positive outside influence will fix you.. only you can make that choice. Until then, you are living the Vicitm Mentality, and you only have yourself to blame.
"Blaming the victim" belongs to defense attorneys and other outside parties with no vested interest in the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged).
Jesus stood up against the corrupt religious leaders and prevented them from stoning the prostitute. But after saving her, His most important words in the incident were spoken to her: "Now go and sin no more."
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: hellokeith
You are missing the distinctions:
"Victim Mentality" belongs to the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged). Falling down is easy. We all make mistakes. We all make poor choices. We all get the shaft in life sometimes. We all get treated like crap, beaten up, stolen from, and lied to by advertisers/government/supposed-loved-ones. But at some point, if you don't get up, then you become the problem, and no amount of positive outside influence will fix you.. only you can make that choice. Until then, you are living the Vicitm Mentality, and you only have yourself to blame.
"Blaming the victim" belongs to defense attorneys and other outside parties with no vested interest in the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged).
Jesus stood up against the corrupt religious leaders and prevented them from stoning the prostitute. But after saving her, His most important words in the incident were spoken to her: "Now go and sin no more."
You are blaming people and condemning them to victim status because they don't get up. Don't you think if people could get up they would, you God damned arrogant fool? What sort of moron screams get up you bums in a room full of people with no legs. You are a simpleton who gets his rocks off by self flattery that you're a walker when what you are is fucking lucky. You are as much an accident as they. Go and sin no more.
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: hellokeith
You are missing the distinctions:
"Victim Mentality" belongs to the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged). Falling down is easy. We all make mistakes. We all make poor choices. We all get the shaft in life sometimes. We all get treated like crap, beaten up, stolen from, and lied to by advertisers/government/supposed-loved-ones. But at some point, if you don't get up, then you become the problem, and no amount of positive outside influence will fix you.. only you can make that choice. Until then, you are living the Vicitm Mentality, and you only have yourself to blame.
"Blaming the victim" belongs to defense attorneys and other outside parties with no vested interest in the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged).
Jesus stood up against the corrupt religious leaders and prevented them from stoning the prostitute. But after saving her, His most important words in the incident were spoken to her: "Now go and sin no more."
You are blaming people and condemning them to victim status because they don't get up. Don't you think if people could get up they would, you God damned arrogant fool? What sort of moron screams get up you bums in a room full of people with no legs. You are a simpleton who gets his rocks off by self flattery that you're a walker when what you are is fucking lucky. You are as much an accident as they. Go and sin no more.
Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: hellokeith
You are missing the distinctions:
"Victim Mentality" belongs to the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged). Falling down is easy. We all make mistakes. We all make poor choices. We all get the shaft in life sometimes. We all get treated like crap, beaten up, stolen from, and lied to by advertisers/government/supposed-loved-ones. But at some point, if you don't get up, then you become the problem, and no amount of positive outside influence will fix you.. only you can make that choice. Until then, you are living the Vicitm Mentality, and you only have yourself to blame.
"Blaming the victim" belongs to defense attorneys and other outside parties with no vested interest in the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged).
Jesus stood up against the corrupt religious leaders and prevented them from stoning the prostitute. But after saving her, His most important words in the incident were spoken to her: "Now go and sin no more."
You are blaming people and condemning them to victim status because they don't get up. Don't you think if people could get up they would, you God damned arrogant fool? What sort of moron screams get up you bums in a room full of people with no legs. You are a simpleton who gets his rocks off by self flattery that you're a walker when what you are is fucking lucky. You are as much an accident as they. Go and sin no more.
What people talk about Moonbeam though in regards to "victim mentality" isn't someone with say severe bi-polar disease (which is one F'd up condition in and of itself btw) and not on meds behaving like a nut - that's expected, that's not "victim mentality", that's the way they truly are. "Victim mentality" is someone b1tching and moaning about how their allergies are making their eyes water everyday, when they won't take the F'ing allergy medicine they've been proscribed (and can afford).
There is a point where proper sympathy ends and personal responsiblity going forward begins. Some people need help in different ways...unfortunately that's calling people on their "victim mentality" sometimes, not letting it continue so their condition and its affects drags on until they choose to stop...
Chuck
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: hellokeith
You are missing the distinctions:
"Victim Mentality" belongs to the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged). Falling down is easy. We all make mistakes. We all make poor choices. We all get the shaft in life sometimes. We all get treated like crap, beaten up, stolen from, and lied to by advertisers/government/supposed-loved-ones. But at some point, if you don't get up, then you become the problem, and no amount of positive outside influence will fix you.. only you can make that choice. Until then, you are living the Vicitm Mentality, and you only have yourself to blame.
"Blaming the victim" belongs to defense attorneys and other outside parties with no vested interest in the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged).
Jesus stood up against the corrupt religious leaders and prevented them from stoning the prostitute. But after saving her, His most important words in the incident were spoken to her: "Now go and sin no more."
You are blaming people and condemning them to victim status because they don't get up. Don't you think if people could get up they would, you God damned arrogant fool? What sort of moron screams get up you bums in a room full of people with no legs. You are a simpleton who gets his rocks off by self flattery that you're a walker when what you are is fucking lucky. You are as much an accident as they. Go and sin no more.
What people talk about Moonbeam though in regards to "victim mentality" isn't someone with say severe bi-polar disease (which is one F'd up condition in and of itself btw) and not on meds behaving like a nut - that's expected, that's not "victim mentality", that's the way they truly are. "Victim mentality" is someone b1tching and moaning about how their allergies are making their eyes water everyday, when they won't take the F'ing allergy medicine they've been proscribed (and can afford).
There is a point where proper sympathy ends and personal responsiblity going forward begins. Some people need help in different ways...unfortunately that's calling people on their "victim mentality" sometimes, not letting it continue so their condition and its affects drags on until they choose to stop...
Chuck
I disagree with your first point, that there is some point at which sympathy ends. What you mean by sympathy, I fear, is a far cry from what it means to me. I operate under the assumption that you must always beware of people you help and that people for whom you have sympathy may wish a knife in your back. I think what you call sympathy I would call enabling, playing into the delusion that somebody is actually defeated.
I think you are expressing an anger toward people because they reject your help whereas I already knew they would. This is why I would say it's better to help people without them knowing it.
I just heard some comment on PBS about some study of attitude or something that talked about how people's attitude toward things in a day change if early on the find a ten dollar bill. Everything is attitude, but the art or science of changing it is profoundly subtle.
I think you may be one who gets pissed if you can't help people. 'Shit, I gave that guy some money and he bought a bottle of booze.' No shit, Sherlock. You can't help people if you're ego is involved and your tough love stuff is just an emotional reaction to failure, in my opinion. What's tough about love is having it.
Originally posted by: Corbett
Originally posted by: FoBoT
i think it means a situation where a victum takes no responsibility for their part in whatever happened to them
BINGO!
And that explains exactly what I meant when I said it in the thread about Detroit's Mayor.
Originally posted by: ahurtt
Wow interesting. . .I always interpreted "victim mentality" as a phrase used to describe the mindset of somebody who always seems to have a reason why something that has happened to them is because of somebody else's doing, never wanting to see or able to see how they have brought circumstances upon themselves.
Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: hellokeith
You are missing the distinctions:
"Victim Mentality" belongs to the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged). Falling down is easy. We all make mistakes. We all make poor choices. We all get the shaft in life sometimes. We all get treated like crap, beaten up, stolen from, and lied to by advertisers/government/supposed-loved-ones. But at some point, if you don't get up, then you become the problem, and no amount of positive outside influence will fix you.. only you can make that choice. Until then, you are living the Vicitm Mentality, and you only have yourself to blame.
"Blaming the victim" belongs to defense attorneys and other outside parties with no vested interest in the person wronged (or person perceiving themself wronged).
Jesus stood up against the corrupt religious leaders and prevented them from stoning the prostitute. But after saving her, His most important words in the incident were spoken to her: "Now go and sin no more."
You are blaming people and condemning them to victim status because they don't get up. Don't you think if people could get up they would, you God damned arrogant fool? What sort of moron screams get up you bums in a room full of people with no legs. You are a simpleton who gets his rocks off by self flattery that you're a walker when what you are is fucking lucky. You are as much an accident as they. Go and sin no more.
What people talk about Moonbeam though in regards to "victim mentality" isn't someone with say severe bi-polar disease (which is one F'd up condition in and of itself btw) and not on meds behaving like a nut - that's expected, that's not "victim mentality", that's the way they truly are. "Victim mentality" is someone b1tching and moaning about how their allergies are making their eyes water everyday, when they won't take the F'ing allergy medicine they've been proscribed (and can afford).
There is a point where proper sympathy ends and personal responsiblity going forward begins. Some people need help in different ways...unfortunately that's calling people on their "victim mentality" sometimes, not letting it continue so their condition and its affects drags on until they choose to stop...
Chuck
I disagree with your first point, that there is some point at which sympathy ends. What you mean by sympathy, I fear, is a far cry from what it means to me. I operate under the assumption that you must always beware of people you help and that people for whom you have sympathy may wish a knife in your back. I think what you call sympathy I would call enabling, playing into the delusion that somebody is actually defeated.
Of course I'm aware of the people that I help may end up misusing the help I give them, but that's their choice, not mine. If I give a homeless person who has a sign on the sidewalk that says, Will lick the bottom of your shoes clean for food...and I flip him a $10 and say Good luck buddy, that may well be enabling. To me, that's a lesser evil than walking past and thinking, Well, he can just go find some homeless handout place and get food, me giving him money he'll just drink it away. That may be true, but maybe he doesn't know about the shelter, maybe he's not welcome there, maybe it's full, maybe he's mentally handicapped and doesn't know about it, WhoTF knows. All I know is if I flip him a $10 and decide to eat at home tonight instead of going out, he may be able to walk into a place, hand them $10, and ask for food. It comes down to him though, not me...I've done my part, it's his choice to do his.
I think you are expressing an anger toward people because they reject your help whereas I already knew they would. This is why I would say it's better to help people without them knowing it.
Why would I feel anger to people who reject my help? If I try and give the guy money and he says No, then that's fine, it's his decision. I'm not angry, it's the decision he made.
If you want to work behind the scenes to ensure people are helped that's super too. There's nothing wrong with that...the beauty of helping is that it's helping period, doesn't matter what you do. You want to donate money to a shelter, you're helping. You want to go lend time instead of money to that shelter, you're helping. You want to campaign for additional homeless/needy help, you're helping. You're helping at least the people that are helped by that system. The people you aren't...the guy you walk past who doesn't know about food kitchen's and is eating cigarattes because that's all he can find, and you don't flip him that $10...you haven't helped him at all. I just do a little bit of both...it's as much give and take as I'm prepared to go all things considered...
I just heard some comment on PBS about some study of attitude or something that talked about how people's attitude toward things in a day change if early on the find a ten dollar bill. Everything is attitude, but the art or science of changing it is profoundly subtle.
With the days I've been having, it'd have to be a $100 bill....oh sh1t!! Now I've got "victim mentality"!!! :Q
I think you may be one who gets pissed if you can't help people. 'Shit, I gave that guy some money and he bought a bottle of booze.' No shit, Sherlock. You can't help people if you're ego is involved and your tough love stuff is just an emotional reaction to failure, in my opinion. What's tough about love is having it.
What you just said really makes 0 sense. First, as I said before, I don't get PO'd if people reject my help - that's their decision about themselves, not mine. That has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with people making decisions about themselves for themselves. Unless it's a mental condition where they're not competant to do so (such as bi-polar disorder and not on meds yet), it's their call. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I may feel bad for them that they'll continue to suffer since they rejected my help, but that's something minor I have to live with for a short period of time...they're the ones that have to deal with the immediate consequences and then live through them.
Chuck
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: 1prophet
The flea syndrome.
To train a flea put it in a box with a lid, it will continually jump and hit its head until it realizes it can't jump higher than the lid and adjust its jump accordingly.
Then you remove the lid but the flea never jumps higher than the height of the box after that, the physical barrier has been replaced by a psychological one.
Along comes a flea that never had a barrier placed over its head and can't understand why the previous flea can't jump out of the box since it wasn't there to witness the lid in place over its head.
So the flea that can jump says to the one that can't "what's wrong with you, there is nothing over your head holding you back, you expect me to come give you a handout, jump out of that box yourself and if you can't you must be lazy and like it in there"
So simple and yet so incredibly profound.
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Moonbeam: My point was, not that victim mentality and blaming the victim are the same thing, but that the notion of victim mentality, its evocation as a put down of victims exists as a result of the impulse to blame the victim.
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Perfect example...
Media says that those who recently lost their homes in the sub-prime mess are "victims". I say BS. They didn't read the loan contract, made a bad deal, and now they're getting burned by it. They made their own bed and have to sleep in it.