Planning for SB in April

[darkware]

Alright, seeing as the B3 motherboards are showing up on the market again, I figure now is a good time to get some feedback on a couple things for my upcoming April (or May) build.

(Updated: 3/13)
(Updated: 3/19)

The boring stuff:
Budget: ~$1300 +/-$100 (+ decent SSD through other funding)
Purchase Country: USA
Use: 3 years of gaming/coding including up to 2 VMs, 3 years as Linux LAMP/File server including 1-3 VMs
Resolution: 1680x1050 @ 60Hz
Hardware Religion: I slightly prefer nVidia hardware due to better Linux support.
Tweaking: Overclocking as possible with only minor voltage adjustments, Building for low-noise operation

Components:
CPU: Intel i5 2500K

[update] Thanks to mfenn and others, I'm pretty much set on the 2500K now.

I'm leaning toward the 2600K for hyperthreading. I've seen mfenn's posts about how worthless hyperthreading is and I welcome more discussion on this, but it seems like running multiple VMs is one of the cases where HT helps. I also find these compression and string-manipulation benchmarks interesting as this seems to be the best approximation of performance for software development.​

Motherboard: MSI P67A-GD55 [NewEgg] -or- ASUS P8P67 [NewEgg]

[update] The P8P67 EVO seems to have disappeared. I don't think the Deluxe is worth it, so the standard P8P67 is the only competition here. That said, there's no point in dropping to the LE, and considering the disturbing number of DOA reports on the P8P67s, I'm starting to consider MSI instead. This would leave me without on-board fan controls, though.

At the moment, there aren't many reasonably priced ASUS B3 motherboards out there, but there should be a nice array by time I build. The reason for favoring ASUS here is on-board fan control. Using SpeedFan is not an option once the box switches to a Linux server.​

Memory: 4 x 4GB G.SKILL DD3-1333 CAS9 [NewEgg]

Yes, 16GB is a huge amount of memory that I'll never make use of... until I'm running a Linux server with 3 VMs under it. I don't see a reason to wait to buy three years from now and risk getting sticks from a batch so different from what I've got now that they cause stability problems. I don't think I'll be able to make use of DDR-1666, even when I overclock the CPU.​

Video: MSI N560GTX-TI [NewEgg] (-formerly- ASUS GTX-560 Ti [NewEgg]) [update]

[update] More research is now making me lean toward the MSI Twin Frozr II. The two models are mostly identical, but the MSI control software is able to set the fan speed profile to use lower RPMs through the majority of the operational temps of the board.

Not the cheapest 560, but the coolers that ASUS has been using have been getting good reviews for cooling at low noise levels. If the release of the GTX-590 drives prices down enough, I'd consider getting the 570.​

PSU: Seasonic SS-560KM [NewEgg]

[update] I'm now leaning toward the SS-560KM, aka: the X-560. The price difference is only $20-30 and the X series is noticeably quieter than the S12II or M12II.

Silence (or close to it) is the goal here. While the X-560 is available, the price difference is small or non-existent and the slightly higher wattage should mean that I will have an easier time sitting in the 650s fanless mode.​

OS Drive: Crucial C400 -or- Corsair F120 -or- Vertex 3 128GB

[update] I've added the C400 as a serious contender as it seems to have made its way to the market. Lets see what its performance is like.

[update] A number of people (and reviews) have convinced me that my reluctance toward Sandforce drives was silly. I still don't know if I trust the Vertex 2s, but perhaps OCZ will have things worked out by the time the Vertex 3's come out. If not, perhaps some other company will have nicely priced Sandforce 2200 drives.

I'm still looking for candidates here. The C400 seems to be the one others are waiting for since the Intel 510s haven't been impressing people. There's always Sandforce, but I've seen mixed reviews on its performance as an OS drive. Size is another big question. In this case, only the OS and a few select apps (included via junction) will be here. Some people say 80GB is enough, others say 128GB. I'd say 128GB is the max and I don't want to pay more than, say, $250 for the drive.​

Application Drive: 2TB Samsung F4EG [NewEgg] -or - 2TB WD Corsair Green EARS

[update] After a lot of struggling, I've decide to embrace the quiet Green drives. If I find any applications struggling with speed, they'll get moved to the SSD. If I run out of app room on the SSD, I'll buy another one in a year.

[update] After looking at the prices and choices, there's no real point in buying a 640GB drive when I can get 1TB or even 1.5TB drive for $10-15 more. The question then becomes: Try a new manufacturer with the F4EG, or stick to WD and go for a faster drive or a quieter drive. I suspect benchmarks will help make the decision for me. I just have to find the three of these compared against each other.

This is a little negotiable. The link goes to a Caviar Black, as that's what NE has in stock, but I would imagine that a Blue or even a 64MB-cached Green would work. The Green would have lower noise, but would I notice the speed difference? I could go for higher capacities, but I only need 640MB (if that) as I'll have 1TB+ of LAN storage. Of course, the prices are so low that maybe this is a good idea.​

Optical Drive: Boring SATA DVD-RW/CD-RW [NewEgg]

I barely use it, but I don't have a spare SATA drive to use, so I'll pick up a new one. Link to one sold by ASUS because... why not continue the trend.​

CPU Cooler: Xigmatek Dark Knight (or clone) [NewEgg] -or- Hyper 212+ [NewEgg]

Yes, the Hyper 212 is pretty much a clone of the Xigmatek and there isn't much difference between them. However the fans, fan mounting, and socket mounting seem to be a bit different and I'm not sure which is better. I'll probably use MX-2 with it (no... I won't use AS5) and I may or may not replace the fan. Setting up push/pull is a possibility.​

Case: Fractal Design Arc Midi -or- FD Define R3 -or- CoolerMaster 690 II Advanced

I'll be posing this in more detail at SPCR, but I'm open to opinions here. The Define R3 is already proven as a nice sound-dampening case. The Arc Midi is brand new and has a lot of mesh. I might be able to mitigate that with some work. Still, I'm undecided. All of my computers live in the living room, so I need them to be somewhat attractive and the P183 and most CM cases fail that test (in my opinion -- and my wife's).

[update] Added the CM 690 II after some recommendations and a check to see that it wasn't too flashy.
​

Case Fans: Scythe Kama Flow [NewEgg] -and/or- Scythe Kama Flex [NewEgg]

[update] Others recommended the new generation of Scythe fans, and I trust them. Looking at information about qFan for the motherboards I'm looking at, I'll probably want a Kama Flex for the CPU and two or three Kama Flows for the case.

I'll want something that plays nice with the ASUS fan controls on the motherboard. The plan will be to have the fans drop to a minimum at idle and ramp up at gaming loads. At idle, I want it to be as quiet as possible.​

 

[mfenn]

I don't think that I've ever said that Hyperthreading is worthless in the general sense. I do say that it is worthless in the context of most desktop workloads. "Software development" means long spans of staring at a text editor (which any CPU can handle) and short bursts of intense compiling activity (which is mostly I/O limited). Will HT speed up your compiles when you've got a nice fat RAM buffer for your SSD? Certainly. Will it speed them up by enough to warrant spending $100 out of a $1300 budget? Hell no.

As for the rest of your build, here's a few comments:
- PSU is an egregious waste of money. Yes, the X-650 shuts off its fan at low loads. No, it won't make a perceptible difference in a system with a GTX 560 or GTX 570. Get something like an S12II 520W instead.
- I wouldn't get worked up over SATA 6Gb/s for an SSD. Sure sequential transfers will be faster, but (a) sequential transfer rates don't matter for typical workloads, and (b) what do you have that can accept data at that rate anyway? I'd say to get a non-OCZ Sandforce based drive like the Corsair Force 120GB.
- Why spend $65 on a 640GB drive when the same money buys you a 1TB?

 

[darkware]

I don't think that I've ever said that Hyperthreading is worthless in the general sense.

Indeed, and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth (on the contrary, I found your arguments rather convincing).

Editing and compilation are one of the less interesting parts of the processor load:

• Most IDEs, and certainly Eclipse, are (sometimes heavily) multithreaded applications.
• Compilation is usually only an occasional task, however IDEs usually syntax-check code (as often as a couple times a second), which requires some intense string manipulation, and almost always done in separate threads.
• Java development and execution often requires runtime decompression of code and resources.
• A decent amount of the code I write is based on multithreaded models.

The counter-point to this is that I do these things already, and my Q9450 doesn't really struggle, apart from application load times on huge applications. The only new usage which I don't have much information on, is my hope of being able to run a small cluster of VMs for testing. I've run a pair of VMs on my current processor, and it does bog down. I don't know if hyperthreading will actually do anything to help this.

At the moment, the $100 savings is looking appealing and my practical side says that I won't really notice. I am, after all, going to see about a 2GHz raw clock improvement from my Q9450. Still, I want to try and make sure that I'm making the best decision I can with the information I've got.

Should I choose to go with the 2500K, know that it was your arguments which saved me that money.

- PSU is an egregious waste of money. Yes, the X-650 shuts off its fan at low loads. No, it won't make a perceptible difference in a system with a GTX 560 or GTX 570. Get something like an S12II 520W instead.

[sigh] This is a good point. I prefer the modular versions for now (at least until I can decide on a case), but an M12II is just as good. I'm seeing that as $30 cheaper than an SS-560KM (X-560). I wouldn't call that egregious, but I am having trouble justifying it.

- I wouldn't get worked up over SATA 6Gb/s for an SSD.

I suppose it was a bit strong to list SATA-6Gb for the part. That is where I was leaning, but I wasn't sure if it could be justified. It's not really speed that concerned me. As an OS drive, its not going to be doing a lot of streaming, and in that case, a Kingston drive could put my current Caviar Blue to shame. The primary driver behind the choice to look for SATA-6Gb was the desire for the newer controller. Perhaps the new controllers aren't worth it.

- Why spend $65 on a 640GB drive when the same money buys you a 1TB?

I came to the same conclusion the moment I started writing it. I made the decision so long ago that I never came back to think about it. Looking at actual drive prices, I'd probably consider getting a Caviar Green 1.5TB or the Samsung F3 you mentioned. Any idea if the performance on the Green would be an issue?

 

[darkware]

Here is a run-down on the budget:

CPU: 2500K = $180 (+$100 for 2600K)
Mobo: ASUS P8P67 LE = $145
Video: ASUS GTX-560 Ti = $250
RAM: 16GB G.SKILL DDR3 1333 = $170
HDD: 1.5TB Caviar Green = $70 (+$10 for 2.0TB Green) (-$5 for F3)
ODD: ASUS DVD-RW = $20
PSU: M12II 520W = $90 (+$30 for SS-560KM)
Case: Undecided = $140
HSF: Hyper 212+ = $30 (+15 for Dark Knight)
Fans: Nexus/Slipstream PWM = $30
OS: Windows 7 Pro OEM = $140

Total: $1,265 ($1,395 for 2600K & SS-560KM)

Then add on a decent SSD for $150-200 (thanks Verizon!) and I'm doing well on the budget. If I catch some sales/rebates, I can probably drive the price down even further.

 

[darkware]

Perhaps this is a question for another forum, but is there a reason you suggested the Force 120 over the C300? They seem to be at a similar price point, but with different controllers.

 

[mnewsham]

Perhaps this is a question for another forum, but is there a reason you suggested the Force 120 over the C300? They seem to be at a similar price point, but with different controllers.

The C300 isnt a very good all around drive it is really only very good at reading large amounts of data quickly. Writing stuff it suffers.

The Sandforce controller is a much more well rounded drive good reads and writes. If you wait a few weeks the new OCZ drives with the new sandforce 2000 controller are supposed to come out offering SATA 6Gb and much faster read/write speeds. (but will cost a premium.)

 

[darkware]

I've been unsure of what to think about various controllers. Some people say that you should avoid Sandforce, some say you should avoid Marvell, and its pretty common for them to conflict with each other.

Is this one of those cases where you can argue about which is the very best, but that for normal use, any of them are going to be fine? No issues with reliability or abnormal loss of performance? I can probably grab any of the popular options and be fine, right?

 

[mnewsham]

Avoid OCZ for the time being, besides that pick your poison.

 

[mfenn]

The C300 isnt a very good all around drive it is really only very good at reading large amounts of data quickly. Writing stuff it suffers.

The Sandforce controller is a much more well rounded drive good reads and writes. If you wait a few weeks the new OCZ drives with the new sandforce 2000 controller are supposed to come out offering SATA 6Gb and much faster read/write speeds. (but will cost a premium.)

:thumbsup:

I've been unsure of what to think about various controllers. Some people say that you should avoid Sandforce, some say you should avoid Marvell, and its pretty common for them to conflict with each other.

Is this one of those cases where you can argue about which is the very best, but that for normal use, any of them are going to be fine? No issues with reliability or abnormal loss of performance? I can probably grab any of the popular options and be fine, right?

Anybody who recommends avoiding Sandforce needs to have their head examined IMHO. OCZ has had some QA issues with their firmware, which is why I am recommending the Corsair drives for the time being.

 

[mfenn]

Indeed, and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth (on the contrary, I found your arguments rather convincing).

Editing and compilation are one of the less interesting parts of the processor load:

• Most IDEs, and certainly Eclipse, are (sometimes heavily) multithreaded applications.
• Compilation is usually only an occasional task, however IDEs usually syntax-check code (as often as a couple times a second), which requires some intense string manipulation, and almost always done in separate threads.
• Java development and execution often requires runtime decompression of code and resources.
• A decent amount of the code I write is based on multithreaded models.

The counter-point to this is that I do these things already, and my Q9450 doesn't really struggle, apart from application load times on huge applications. The only new usage which I don't have much information on, is my hope of being able to run a small cluster of VMs for testing. I've run a pair of VMs on my current processor, and it does bog down. I don't know if hyperthreading will actually do anything to help this.

At the moment, the $100 savings is looking appealing and my practical side says that I won't really notice. I am, after all, going to see about a 2GHz raw clock improvement from my Q9450. Still, I want to try and make sure that I'm making the best decision I can with the information I've got.

You use Eclipse? My condolences. :awe:

But seriously, what Eclipse is doing to syntax check your code is running a scanner and a parser. The scanner (by design) reads the code file sequentially, breaking it into tokens. The parser is then fed those tokens and applies attempts to form a parse tree based on the grammar of the language in question. These processes are of course run in separate threads from the main UI, but neither one is very parallelizable in and of itself.

Running HT is actually a terrible idea on a hypervisor when you expect significant load to be placed on the VMs. I should've picked up on this in my first pass, sorry about that. A multi-core VM could easily be scheduled onto two of the logical cores that map to a single physical core, killing performance.

[sigh] This is a good point. I prefer the modular versions for now (at least until I can decide on a case), but an M12II is just as good. I'm seeing that as $30 cheaper than an SS-560KM (X-560). I wouldn't call that egregious, but I am having trouble justifying it.

Modular isn't worth the money IMHO if you pick reasonably-sized power supplies and a case with decent cable management. You'll find that you end up using the majority of the connections and the extras are easy to tuck out of the way.

I came to the same conclusion the moment I started writing it. I made the decision so long ago that I never came back to think about it. Looking at actual drive prices, I'd probably consider getting a Caviar Green 1.5TB or the Samsung F3 you mentioned. Any idea if the performance on the Green would be an issue?

It depends on what you plan to put on the HDD. If you're just keeping media on the drive, the Green is fine (get the 2TB, it's better $/gb). If you plan to put games, VM images, or source code on it, then you need to get a fast drive like an F3 or WD Black.

 

[darkware]

I've updated the original post.

The 2500K is pretty much certain now, and I'm strongly leaning toward the SS-560KM (X-560) for PSU. I've added some concrete choices for storage. I've also added the CM 690 II Advanced as a possible case and improved the fans I'd likely use with it.

 

[fffblackmage]

I happen to own both the WD20EARS and F4EG. I have HDTune benchmarks for them, but apparently, I only have the CrystalDiskMark benchmark for the F4EG.

Here's the WD20EARS:

F4EG (HD204UI):

And just for comparison, here's my 60GB Agility:

CrystalDiskMark for the F4EG. Kinda useless without anything to compare to, but maybe you'll find it useful anyways:

Sadly, I don't own any of the 1TB 7200rpm HDDs, but from what I've hear/seen, the F4EG is just about as fast as the Samsung F3 1TB, which is similar to the WD Black 1TB. F3 1TB vs F4 2TB

These benchmarks are mostly good for looking at sustained transfer speeds. 7200rpm HDDs will probably pull ahead once you have I/O heavy workloads.

 

[mfenn]

Since you've listed your HDD as an "application drive", you do not want a "Green" drive like the F4EG or a lower-midrange drive like the "Blue". At the same time, you don't want to waste money on the "Black", either. My recommendation is the Samsung F3 1TB.

Regarding the PSU, you probably want to update your link, because you linked to the X-650. The extra $45 over an S12II is a waste of money. You'll never hear either of them over a GTX 560 or GTX 570.

 

[darkware]

Since you've listed your HDD as an "application drive", you do not want a "Green" drive like the F4EG or a lower-midrange drive like the "Blue". At the same time, you don't want to waste money on the "Black", either. My recommendation is the Samsung F3 1TB.

This is what I'm still struggling with. Hardware specs tell me that a Black/F3 is best for games/apps, that a Green/EcoGreen is best for silence and power, and that a Blue is best for balancing both. However, I keep seeing performance numbers that put the latest Green/EcoGreen performance matching Blue and F3 drives.

For instance: this post. From my own experience, a 10-15% drop in sustained write speed isn't that detrimental to gaming. It's random access time that is more noticeable (hence why SSDs are so glorious). If those benchmark results are to be trusted, then the F4EG matches the F3 (due to platter density?) in seek time and burst speed.

And thus we have my dilemma. I've got my eye on three (four?) drives and there are people/data saying that every single one of them is the best choice. If its really down to personal opinion, then I'm going to favor the quiet/economical drives.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. I want people to give me alternate opinions and I thank you for pointing me in other directions. I'm just looking for one drive to take the lead.

Regarding the PSU, you probably want to update your link, because you linked to the X-650. The extra $45 over an S12II is a waste of money. You'll never hear either of them over a GTX 560 or GTX 570.

The link is updated. The cost difference from a S12II to an X-560 is only about $30-35, shipped, less if I can find a local supplier. That's a difference which I think is worth the various quality improvements. Its not so little that it takes out any other considerations, but I plan for these things to last for at least six or more years (the last three or more spent as servers) standard procedure for me is to prefer quality over price within budget. My budget for PSU tops out at $130.

 

[darkware]

I've found a decent benchmark showing a bunch of the drives I'm interested in at XBit labs, in their 2010 hard drive round up.

They actually liked the Samsung F4 as a general system drive, with honors to the F4EG as an impressive green drive. Looking through the benchmarks, it still seems like the WD 1TB Blue is a good balance of performance and economy.

The F4 would work, except that I can only find a 320GB version, which is smaller than I'd like.

 

[mfenn]

The link is updated. The cost difference from a S12II to an X-560 is only about $30-35, shipped, less if I can find a local supplier. That's a difference which I think is worth the various quality improvements. Its not so little that it takes out any other considerations, but I plan for these things to last for at least six or more years (the last three or more spent as servers) standard procedure for me is to prefer quality over price within budget. My budget for PSU tops out at $130.

That's just the thing, the X-560 is no higher "quality" than the S12II.

On a general note, you should never ever budget for individual components within a build. As a programmer, I'm sure you know the dangers of a waterfall design methodology (i.e. overspecifying from the beginning).

This is what I'm still struggling with. Hardware specs tell me that a Black/F3 is best for games/apps, that a Green/EcoGreen is best for silence and power, and that a Blue is best for balancing both. However, I keep seeing performance numbers that put the latest Green/EcoGreen performance matching Blue and F3 drives.

For instance: this post. From my own experience, a 10-15% drop in sustained write speed isn't that detrimental to gaming. It's random access time that is more noticeable (hence why SSDs are so glorious). If those benchmark results are to be trusted, then the F4EG matches the F3 (due to platter density?) in seek time and burst speed.

And thus we have my dilemma. I've got my eye on three (four?) drives and there are people/data saying that every single one of them is the best choice. If its really down to personal opinion, then I'm going to favor the quiet/economical drives.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. I want people to give me alternate opinions and I thank you for pointing me in other directions. I'm just looking for one drive to take the lead.

HDTach/HDTune are worthless for determining the performance of a drive for applications because they don't measure 512K and 4K random read/write performance. Any modern drive is going to post decent sequential numbers.

I've found a decent benchmark showing a bunch of the drives I'm interested in at XBit labs, in their 2010 hard drive round up.

They actually liked the Samsung F4 as a general system drive, with honors to the F4EG as an impressive green drive. Looking through the benchmarks, it still seems like the WD 1TB Blue is a good balance of performance and economy.

The F4 would work, except that I can only find a 320GB version, which is smaller than I'd like.

There is no doubt that the F4 is a fine drive, however the reason that I'm not recommending it is there is only a 320GB version at the moment. The 2TB is the 5400RPM EcoGreen version. Your Xbit article didn't test the F3, but if they did it would have score similarly to the Black. An excellent deal for $65 IMHO.

 

[darkware]

That's just the thing, the X-560 is no higher "quality" than the S12II.

But it is quieter, and it has a direct opening to the room.

Yes, a video card is going to be louder than either, but you've got a chance of dampening or otherwise reducing the sound of the video card. I've got an 8800GTS G92 right now and its as loud or louder than the GTX-560 will be. At idle, the fans I hear from the case are the PSU and the top exhaust. The video card has most of the sound from its fans dampened by the case and some foam and baffled by the CPU heatsink/fans.

On a general note, you should never ever budget for individual components within a build.

I agree and disagree. My budget for individual parts is never set until I have a good idea of what I'm getting... which was a couple months after the general budget was set. At that point, components get price ceilings to prevent over-spending (eg: I won't pay more than $300 for a CPU, I won't pay more than $270 for a video card, I won't pay more than $100 for a HDD). I have violated these in the past when it was worth while, but I avoid it when possible. The result is that I usually end up underspending while getting the system I expected to get.

So, perhaps its better put this way: My budget is $1300 +/-$100. However, I'm not going to buy a GTX-570 unless I can get one for $250. And I'm willing to buy a $120 PSU if it will drop my idle noise 3dB lower than a $90 PSU.

HDTach/HDTune are worthless for determining the performance of a drive for applications because they don't measure 512K and 4K random read/write performance. Any modern drive is going to post decent sequential numbers.

I don't care about the sequential numbers much at all. As you already know, practical use never sees that sort of transfer outside of reading huge files, which is not really a usage I'm trying to optimize. I was more interested in the seek times and 4K transfer numbers. The seek times vary, but don't really put the Green drives at a disadvantage. I have found sources that say the Black drives have about a 50% higher 4K transfer time than the F4EG. But I don't see a need for a Black drive. I'm more curious what a WD Blue or F3 could do.

And for the record: I know that the F3 is a good drive. I wish I could find a 640GB or 1TB F4 for comparison, really. The reason I'm hesitant about it is because many of the cases I'm looking at have mesh fronts and the F3 is not a quiet drive. A number of people have confirmed that it hums when mounted in a drive bay, so it would require me to go through the effort of suspending it. A WD Black would have the same issue. The F4EG is not as quiet as the WD Green drives, but has better performance.

So, the exercise here is to find the point where the compromise is worth it to me. I think I want something faster than the WD Green EARS, and I think I want something quieter than a WD Black FAEX. The F4EG, WD Blue EALX, and F3 lie somewhere in between, but I'm not sure where.

 

[mfenn]

But it is quieter, and it has a direct opening to the room.

Yes, a video card is going to be louder than either, but you've got a chance of dampening or otherwise reducing the sound of the video card. I've got an 8800GTS G92 right now and its as loud or louder than the GTX-560 will be. At idle, the fans I hear from the case are the PSU and the top exhaust. The video card has most of the sound from its fans dampened by the case and some foam and baffled by the CPU heatsink/fans.

Just FYI, most sound that you can hear from a GPU is created by air rushing out of the rear vent. That's not going to be baffled at all. I don't know what kind of PSU you have now, but you're simply not going to be able to tell a 3dB difference when you've got a GPU in the system.

I agree and disagree. My budget for individual parts is never set until I have a good idea of what I'm getting... which was a couple months after the general budget was set. At that point, components get price ceilings to prevent over-spending (eg: I won't pay more than $300 for a CPU, I won't pay more than $270 for a video card, I won't pay more than $100 for a HDD). I have violated these in the past when it was worth while, but I avoid it when possible. The result is that I usually end up underspending while getting the system I expected to get.

So, perhaps its better put this way: My budget is $1300 +/-$100. However, I'm not going to buy a GTX-570 unless I can get one for $250. And I'm willing to buy a $120 PSU if it will drop my idle noise 3dB lower than a $90 PSU.

So basically what you're saying is that you don't buy bad value parts. Pretty obvious really. :awe:

I don't care about the sequential numbers much at all. As you already know, practical use never sees that sort of transfer outside of reading huge files, which is not really a usage I'm trying to optimize. I was more interested in the seek times and 4K transfer numbers. The seek times vary, but don't really put the Green drives at a disadvantage. I have found sources that say the Black drives have about a 50% higher 4K transfer time than the F4EG. But I don't see a need for a Black drive. I'm more curious what a WD Blue or F3 could do.

And for the record: I know that the F3 is a good drive. I wish I could find a 640GB or 1TB F4 for comparison, really. The reason I'm hesitant about it is because many of the cases I'm looking at have mesh fronts and the F3 is not a quiet drive. A number of people have confirmed that it hums when mounted in a drive bay, so it would require me to go through the effort of suspending it. A WD Black would have the same issue. The F4EG is not as quiet as the WD Green drives, but has better performance.

So, the exercise here is to find the point where the compromise is worth it to me. I think I want something faster than the WD Green EARS, and I think I want something quieter than a WD Black FAEX. The F4EG, WD Blue EALX, and F3 lie somewhere in between, but I'm not sure where.

I'm a little confused about what you're trying to say here. There's no point in wishing for benchmarks on a 1TB F4 because the drive doesn't exist. As for vibrational hum, that has a really high variance even within a model. I've ordered two drives at the same time where one hummed like crazy and the other didn't.

Bottom line: worrying about noise from HDDs and PSUs is really beyond pointless when you're planning to stick a midrange or higher GPU into a system. If you want a really quiet system, you need to ditch the idea of a gaming GPU altogether.

 

[darkware]

Just FYI, most sound that you can hear from a GPU is created by air rushing out of the rear vent. That's not going to be baffled at all. I don't know what kind of PSU you have now, but you're simply not going to be able to tell a 3dB difference when you've got a GPU in the system.

Agreed, to some degree. One of the reasons why I selected that particular GPU was because it didn't use the reference rotor to vent to the outside. It uses a pair of (92mm?) fans to blow across a heatsink much like pretty much every aftermarket GPU cooler does. The exhaust air is kept within the case and requires the case to have sufficient exhaust flow elsewhere to clear it.

This is helpful for noise because a pair of quiet fans can (should?) make less noise than a high speed rotor, the less restricted air flow will have less turbulence noise and the lack of a direct exhaust means that the sound is not immediately transmitted outside the case. Instead, it has to bounce off the case and get past the card itself (which forms a weak baffle in most cases). So long as I have sufficient exhaust, it will be much quieter than a reference-rotor design. ...In theory, at least.

For reference, right now I have a Enermax Modu82+, an EVGA 8800GTS G92 reference-design, and a pair of Scythe S-Flex 800rpm fans running exhaust. At idle, the loudest sound is from the top fan and the Modu82 and rear exhaust add a noticeable hum. The 8800GTS doesn't contribute any noticeable amount of noise (and doesn't vent much air out the back, either).

So basically what you're saying is that you don't buy bad value parts. Pretty obvious really. :awe:

I try, at least. "Value" is a slippery thing and I only build every three years. I do a bunch of research and try to find the value point for the important parts and base a budget off that. I could easily afford to build $2000 computers, but I don't feel there's more value in it. I used to build at the $1100+/-$100 price point, but my research in 2008 said the "value" point had moved.

Of course, I still end up relying on people like you and the people at SPCR to help me figure that sort of stuff out. I'd like to think that the result ends up making me not look like an idiot.

I'm a little confused about what you're trying to say here. There's no point in wishing for benchmarks on a 1TB F4 because the drive doesn't exist.

I know. That's what I was complaining about. If Samsung would make a drive with the areal density and quieter mechanics of the F4EG at the size and rotational velocity of the F3, I think I would be finished looking. Unfortunately, that drive doesn't exist. That's all I was wishing for.

As for vibrational hum, that has a really high variance even within a model. I've ordered two drives at the same time where one hummed like crazy and the other didn't.

Yes, and from what I've heard, Samsung will accept returns of drives with the higher pitched whines, but all of the F3's exhibit a vibrational hum that is 4-8dB louder than WD Blue/Green models and even the F3EG. From what I've read, the rotational vibration is even more than a WD Black (though the seeks are quieter).

Bottom line: worrying about noise from HDDs and PSUs is really beyond pointless when you're planning to stick a midrange or higher GPU into a system.

And yet, I built a quad-core gaming-capable system in 2008 with a mid-high range GPU. At idle or when using it for things like browsing, the only sound coming from it is some turbulent noise from the exhaust fans. It is possible to make a quiet system which can play games. Its not going to be quiet while gaming, but it can be quiet when its not. Doing that means caring about the noise produced by things that are always in use, including the hard drive and PSU (as well as the other fans). Every source of noise you remove (especially external turbulent noise) reduces the overall sound profile.

This is why its useful to have a PSU that runs fanless at idle. Mass loading and dampening foam can cut the whine of fans from the GPU. Dynamic fan controls can turn the fans down to 500rpm or less at minimal load. At that point, a hard drive which is emitting a whine or seek noises at the front of the case, near a mesh panel is going to be audible. I'm trying to avoid that. It may not be possible and I may end up buying a case with a sound baffle for the front panel or a drive enclosure.

 

[Farmer]

Regarding your graphics selection:

The MSI GTX560Ti has a very effective, quiet cooler and comes with a core frequency 50MHz higher than your ASUS. I recently purchased this and it is much faster and quieter than my old HD4870 (with reference cooler). It also comes with a fairly robust Windows OC utility based off of RivaTuner and a free copy of the recent Lara Croft arcade game (very fun, actually). Not to mention, it is $10 cheaper.

Just a suggestion.

Please do tell us about heatsink fit on your motherboard of choice. I'm planning to reuse a Scythe Mugen on a future 2500K+P67/Z68 build.

 

[darkware]

Regarding your graphics selection:

The MSI GTX560Ti has a very effective, quiet cooler and comes with a core frequency 50MHz higher than your ASUS.

That would be the Twin Frozr seen here? If so, that was the other card I had considered, but I hadn't found any (reliable) reports of how it sounded. I seem to remember Anandtech saying it was quiet, but... sorry Anandtech, but the noise floor was 40dB. It sort of invalidates the results. Still, it seemed like a good choice and is the backup if the ASUS doesn't live up to its marketing. Price will play a part, too.

I'm not concerned about the 50MHz overclock. That's easy to set up on my own. I was more interested in getting a card with a factory cooler that was quieter than stock.

For reference: A stock 560Ti runs at about 15dB at idle and 22db loaded. I don't think the Twin Frozr or DirectCU can really drop the sound by more than 4dB or so. That would help, but I think you get just as much benefit from avoiding the turbulent noise as the air is shoved through a bunch of narrow slits at the back of the card.

Please do tell us about heatsink fit on your motherboard of choice. I'm planning to reuse a Scythe Mugen on a future 2500K+P67/Z68 build.

I don't expect to have any problems at all with that, especially since I'm using RAM without tall heat spreaders. I think all of the ASUS P8P67 boards use fairly low-profile heat sinks around the CPU. I hadn't even put much thought into it because I haven't heard others complaining about it.

I do know that many of the P67 motherboards were putting the RAM slots closer to the socket than previous boards, but that still shouldn't be an issue so long as you avoid RAM with tall spreaders. The spreaders aren't really needed anyway.

 

[Farmer]

Is there some source saying the ASUS card is particularly quiet?

 

[darkware]

Is there some source saying the ASUS card is particularly quiet?

A few of them, with varying degrees of authority:

Here is a review from Guru3D, measuring the noise as matching the Twin Frozr. Actually, it's marked as slightly quieter, but I doubt they have the accuracy to differentiate by a single dB considering that it seems they've got a pretty high noise floor, as suggested by...

Techpowerup's review. They record the same load noise rating (40 dB), but get an idle value of just 26 dB. This is more convincing, especially since they note that their noise floor is 20 dB. For reference, here is the MSI Twin Frozr II review from TPU. It gives the MSI the edge, but again, its just by 1 dB.

And for additional reference, here is a review of the 6850 using ASUS DirectCU II heat sink done by SPCR. They've got a 10db noise floor which should give an even better idea of how this sounds. Note that the 6850 uses a single-fan version of the cooler and there is some indication that the fan is set to run at higher speeds than it does in the 560Ti. This means that it only matches the reference design at idle, but does much better at load.

That said, a lot of people seem concerned about the high speed of the fans on the ASUS. I'll take a more serious look at the MSI. It might be a more consistent product.

 

[mfenn]

Yes, and from what I've heard, Samsung will accept returns of drives with the higher pitched whines, but all of the F3's exhibit a vibrational hum that is 4-8dB louder than WD Blue/Green models and even the F3EG. From what I've read, the rotational vibration is even more than a WD Black (though the seeks are quieter).

I can only imagine a 8dB difference on a really bad F3 sample. Subjectively, I can't tell a difference between my old WD6400AAKS and my F3 1TB. Anecdotal I know, but so is a review.

And yet, I built a quad-core gaming-capable system in 2008 with a mid-high range GPU. At idle or when using it for things like browsing, the only sound coming from it is some turbulent noise from the exhaust fans. It is possible to make a quiet system which can play games. Its not going to be quiet while gaming, but it can be quiet when its not. Doing that means caring about the noise produced by things that are always in use, including the hard drive and PSU (as well as the other fans). Every source of noise you remove (especially external turbulent noise) reduces the overall sound profile.

I don't think that I've ever mentioned noise at load. I've had an 8800GTS before and I can tell you that if you're happy with that, you really don't need to be worrying so much about spending a bunch of money on ultra-quiet components.

At that point, a hard drive which is emitting a whine or seek noises at the front of the case, near a mesh panel is going to be audible. I'm trying to avoid that. It may not be possible and I may end up buying a case with a sound baffle for the front panel or a drive enclosure.

See, this makes no sense to me and makes me think that you're really really trying to solve a problem which probably doesn't exist. Why would you go to such great lengths to eliminate seek times if you're mostly concerned about quietness when idle? Any sort of GPU or CPU intensive task is going to cause those fans to drown out any negligible seek noise.

I think I'm done arguing though. If you want to spend a bunch of money, so be it. I tried my best. 🙂

 

[darkware]

I can only imagine a 8dB difference on a really bad F3 sample. Subjectively, I can't tell a difference between my old WD6400AAKS and my F3 1TB. Anecdotal I know, but so is a review.

Indeed. I have a WD6400AAKS myself. If you say the two are indistinguishable, then that actually says a lot to me. Considering the price I can get a F3 1TB for, its probably worth buying even if I end up taking steps later to quiet it down.

I don't think that I've ever mentioned noise at load. I've had an 8800GTS before and I can tell you that if you're happy with that, you really don't need to be worrying so much about spending a bunch of money on ultra-quiet components.

My 8800GTS is indeed loud...when its being used. At idle, its quiet. But then, I've taken extra steps to keep it from transmitting noise. I'm fine with that noise profile.

See, this makes no sense to me and makes me think that you're really really trying to solve a problem which probably doesn't exist.

It's possible. The first rule of building quiet computers is to use quiet components. If I was comfortable testing/returning/re-ordering components, I could figure out where I can slide a bit. But with just one shot, I'm going to err on the side of caution.

So... am I over-engineering? Yeah, I admit that I am. However, at the moment, the premium I'm paying for lower noise is only about $80 right now.

Why would you go to such great lengths to eliminate seek times if you're mostly concerned about quietness when idle? Any sort of GPU or CPU intensive task is going to cause those fans to drown out any negligible seek noise.

I don't mind noise while gaming. But I'd like to avoid noise while coding or browsing. That doesn't generate enough load to pull my fans off their minimum settings. If I can hear hard drive seeks while browsing, then I'm going to find a way to make that disappear.

I think I'm done arguing though. If you want to spend a bunch of money, so be it. I tried my best. 🙂

I'm sorry if I've come off as argumentative. Half of the point here is an exercise to see if I can justify my own decisions. I truly do appreciate the feedback. And for the record: Since I started this thread, I've actually drastically reduced the expected cost of the build: $100 on the CPU, $20-30 on the HDD, $15-45 on the PSU, depending on final choices.

I'd say you did a pretty good job. Thank you for your time.