Pitt and Syracuse accepted to the ACC, UConn/Rutgers next?

[ElFenix]

All they show of UF's and FSU's are repeats of old games. Do you have any actual evidence that UF and FSU sold Tier 3 Rights to sun sports? What are Tier 3 rights, anyway?

i didn't say they showed their own games on the channel. their games are probably picked up by the tier 1 and tier 2 providers.

the way the tv contracts work the tier 1 provider gets first crack at picking the slate of games they want to show. then the tier 2 provider gets theirs. for the SEC it's CBS and ESPN. for the big xii it had been espn and fox.

tier 3 is the leftover rights. sometimes that stuff gets picked up by local OTA, sometimes that gets put on ppv, sometimes it's not picked up at all. usually it's very early season creampuff football games and some basketball games that get picked up, if anything does. UT sold basically everything.

 

[GotIssues]

it wasn't UT that was on the losing end of the 11-1 votes all the time. nebraska is the real cancer, they tried to run kstate out of the big 8 back in the 80s. colorado didn't like them much so provided the 7th vote to move the office to dallas from KC. no one else in the conference like nebraska's partial qualifiers (except kstate), so that vote went 10-2. kstate moved on, tom "i play rapists" osborne got butt hurt by it. texas wasn't the 11-1 vote loser on all those issues.

Disagreements =/= cancer. Not to mention, if the problem programs are all gone now, then why is the conference even less stable?

and again, the biggest instability issue of the unequal revenue sharing was introduced by A&M, UNL, and CU. the three schools that left. A&M and UNL voted against equal revenue sharing every time it came up.

At the start of the Big XII, unequal revenue sharing made sense. However, times have changed. Unequal revenue sharing is an old-school philosophy that just doesn't work anymore. Equal revenue sharing props up the whole conference, gives teams a more competitive chance, and makes it more stable. This is why it's been brought up in the last few years, except Texas isn't interested in anything but Texas and sees dollar bills going out the door, not a stronger, more stable conference.

it's easy to paint UT as a villain because it's the biggest and wealthiest. but it ignores reality. if you're looking for a villain in this it's tom osborne.

Is it because when Texas said they'd do anything to save this conference and Osborne asked everyone to pool their T3 rights to form a Big XII network and Texas said no? The truth is, Texas will do anything to save the conference, as long as it's on the backs of someone else.

It's easy to paint UT as a villian because they are the instigator. Anyone that actually sees the events as a whole sees it. You are looking at the smoke, but it's the fire that's the destructive force.

and it's pretty clear that the aggies didn't have any intention of staying in the big xii even when they did take the blood money from the forgotten five.

Put down the burnt orange kool-aid, my friend. aTm isn't as media savvy as UT, but they are doing exactly what UT does, look out for #1, to hell with everyone else.

Texas: Breaking up more conferences in the past 20 years than they have national championships in 40.

 

[Drako]

Pretty interesting NYT analysis of the college football markets and realignment:

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ootball-fans-and-realignment-chaos/?src=twrhp

Their conclusion:

"Of course, the question that an analysis cannot address is whether through expansion a conference can become more than the sum of its parts — or if it instead risks becoming less.

The only two conferences that can feel completely secure right now are the Big Ten and the S.E.C..

They’re the two that have taken the most conservative attitude toward expansion over the past decade or two, waiting for programs of the caliber of Penn State, Nebraska and Texas A&M to become interested before increasing their ranks. They’ve been rewarded with extreme loyalty among their fan bases. In a sport where rooting interests are so highly localized, that goes a long way toward explaining their success."

 

[preslove]

i didn't say they showed their own games on the channel. their games are probably picked up by the tier 1 and tier 2 providers.

the way the tv contracts work the tier 1 provider gets first crack at picking the slate of games they want to show. then the tier 2 provider gets theirs. for the SEC it's CBS and ESPN. for the big xii it had been espn and fox.

tier 3 is the leftover rights. sometimes that stuff gets picked up by local OTA, sometimes that gets put on ppv, sometimes it's not picked up at all. usually it's very early season creampuff football games and some basketball games that get picked up, if anything does. UT sold basically everything.

So, how is this mythical UF tier 3 rights sale, which you still haven't linked to..., in any way relevant?

 

[rcpratt]

History is history. They can get back, but it's not a particularly good program now.

Maybe I'm just biased because when I was growing up, my team had accomplished absolutely nothing in their entire history, but has transformed into a perennial power. A program that I'm confident in saying has been a top 5 program in the last 10 to twelve years, and has the current record for straight 10-win seasons.

 

[GotIssues]

Pretty interesting NYT analysis of the college football markets and realignment:

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ootball-fans-and-realignment-chaos/?src=twrhp

Their conclusion:

"Of course, the question that an analysis cannot address is whether through expansion a conference can become more than the sum of its parts — or if it instead risks becoming less.

The only two conferences that can feel completely secure right now are the Big Ten and the S.E.C..

They’re the two that have taken the most conservative attitude toward expansion over the past decade or two, waiting for programs of the caliber of Penn State, Nebraska and Texas A&M to become interested before increasing their ranks. They’ve been rewarded with extreme loyalty among their fan bases. In a sport where rooting interests are so highly localized, that goes a long way toward explaining their success."

Big Ten and SEC are run by 2 people who are exceptionally good at what they do. Larry Scott has a lot of potential. Adding OU, OSU, UT, and TTU should add enough to the ie so that everyone's slices get bigger.

The real question is: are 16 team conferences feasible? The WAC tried it already and failed (hence the formation of the MWC). Pods would work logistically, but will it be palpable to the fans and to the traditions? I am not so sure about that one.

EDIT: The article you posted is very interesting. Thanks.

 

[ElFenix]

Disagreements =/= cancer. Not to mention, if the problem programs are all gone now, then why is the conference even less stable?

because no one wants to get left out when the 'superconferences' form. that drove nebraska, a school with only 1.2 million people in state, to make sure they weren't left out. the big xii has been seen as easy pickings ever since that idea first came up. people can do math. there are more than 64 teams currently in AQ conferences but 64 is the number for the 'superconferences.' someone is going to be left holding the bag and it's more likely to be schools in corn states.

At the start of the Big XII, unequal revenue sharing made sense. However, times have changed. Unequal revenue sharing is an old-school philosophy that just doesn't work anymore. Equal revenue sharing props up the whole conference, gives teams a more competitive chance, and makes it more stable. This is why it's been brought up in the last few years, except Texas isn't interested in anything but Texas and sees dollar bills going out the door, not a stronger, more stable conference.

again, the schools that bailed voted time and again for unequal revenue sharing. it wasn't just texas that voted for unequal revenue sharing.

Is it because when Texas said they'd do anything to save this conference and Osborne asked everyone to pool their T3 rights to form a Big XII network and Texas said no? The truth is, Texas will do anything to save the conference, as long as it's on the backs of someone else.

powers didn't say no, he said they'd need time to think about it. at the time no one had pledged all their T3 rights to any conference (for example, ohio state sold its rights for 110 million over 10 years in the so-equitable BIG). additionally, at the time UNL was exploring their own channel as well and was on pace to launch it before the LHN launched. that's after UNL and UT had jointly paid for a consulting firm to figure out if a conference channel would be a good idea.

Big Ten and SEC are run by 2 people who are exceptionally good at what they do. Larry Scott has a lot of potential. Adding OU, OSU, UT, and TTU should add enough to the ie so that everyone's slices get bigger.

The real question is: are 16 team conferences feasible? The WAC tried it already and failed (hence the formation of the MWC). Pods would work logistically, but will it be palpable to the fans and to the traditions? I am not so sure about that one.

i'm not sure the SEC will be going to 16 in the near future. the ACC looks to have shored itself up considerably, keeping the SEC from poaching any of their good schools. missouri would rather be in BIG if it were up to them. WVU seems like another mouth to feed (despite the NYT's assertions to the contrary). i don't think vatech is going anywhere as we saw what in-state politics did when it moved in 2003. just finding a 14th school for the SEC is difficult, let alone another 2.

 

[GotIssues]

because no one wants to get left out when the 'superconferences' form. that drove nebraska, a school with only 1.2 million people in state, to make sure they weren't left out. the big xii has been seen as easy pickings ever since that idea first came up. people can do math. there are more than 64 teams currently in AQ conferences but 64 is the number for the 'superconferences.' someone is going to be left holding the bag and it's more likely to be schools in corn states.

UT was in talks with the PAC before anyone else in the Big XII were looking (except Missouri). That's one of the big catalysts to the Big XII meltdown. Are you going to deny that fact, too?

Nebraska's clout isn't in their homestate population. UT's fanbase is very Texas centric. Nebraska's is national. Notre Dame is the exact same way. Focusing on local population just makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about.

The elites of CFB would never have had a problem finding a conference. OU, UT, NU, and aTm in the Big XII were never in danger of being left out. You make room for them. ND will also not be left out of the super conference shuffle. The brands are too big, the fanbases and revenues too large. The ones sweating are the bubble teams like KU, KSU, and the remaining Big East.

again, the schools that bailed voted time and again for unequal revenue sharing. it wasn't just texas that voted for unequal revenue sharing.

Later votes weren't not as cut and dry as you seem to think.

powers didn't say no, he said they'd need time to think about it. at the time no one had pledged all their T3 rights to any conference (for example, ohio state sold its rights for 110 million over 10 years in the so-equitable BIG).

Really? Because I've seen the $ distribution numbers from the BTN in an article recently, and none of them were more than about $100k different. I'd love a link.

additionally, at the time UNL was exploring their own channel as well and was on pace to launch it before the LHN launched. that's after UNL and UT had jointly paid for a consulting firm to figure out if a conference channel would be a good idea.

You are right, UT and Nebraska worked together on the initial consultations and Nebraska was further along. Nebraska was also willing to put up their T3 rights for the conference to remain intact, UT was not. The fact that they have the LHN shows that they were not willing to put them up for the good of the conference.

Option 1: Sit around and wait for UT to put up their T3
Option 2: Assume they'll do what they always do, look out for #1

 

[ElFenix]

ohio state:
http://www.cbssports.com/general/story/11569497


as for the corn state fan base: i do realize and appreciate that UNL's fanbase is spread out, but that actually makes a conference less attractive for them because conference tv contracts are inherently regional (and, conversely, them attractive to a conference). that's why ND's best play up until nationally televised conference networks (and BTN is only barely nationally televised due to directv) was being on NBC. there's more clout in a concentrated fan base than in a spread out one.
from omaha.com:
http://www.omaha.com/article/20100830/BIGRED/708309872#the-big-ten-decision


and again, no one in the country had pledged all of their T3 to the conference. you can't make a near impossible demand and then complain when it isn't met. it's like a&m complaining that baylor won't sign away a legal right for free. not to mention UNL didn't guarantee they would stay in the conference if UT signed its T3 rights to the conference.

 

[preslove]

ohio state:
http://www.cbssports.com/general/story/11569497

Wasn't asking about Ohio St.

You obviously have some weird agenda in this thread. All your posting about the specifics of Big12 voting without links and your obvious emotional attachment to clearing UT of guilt makes me suspect that your entire story is BS.

 

[Drako]

and BTN is only barely nationally televised due to directv)

LOL, now I know your talking out your ass

 

[ElFenix]

Wasn't asking about Ohio St.

You obviously have some weird agenda in this thread. All your posting about the specifics of Big12 voting without links and your obvious emotional attachment to clearing UT of guilt makes me suspect that your entire story is BS.

huh? i said that ohio state had sold its rights, and GotIssues asked for a link. i never said it was sold to the BTN. keep up with the thread and maybe you won't have as many questions.

LOL, now I know your talking out your ass

is it carried on other providers? i honestly don't know.


edit: comcast does carry it down here. i guess at $0.10 a household outside of BIG's footprint that's not a bad deal.

 

[GotIssues]

ohio state:
http://www.cbssports.com/general/story/11569497

You ninja edited on me. But that article just states that all sporting content not covered under Big Ten contracts and NCAA contracts were sold. Not sure where you are getting that they were sold to the BTN.

Regardless, in that case, every school has the same rights, however, it falls AFTER the BTN. So what you are saying is that the B12 could have done the same thing, but UT wasn't interested in that, either. Not sure how that's supporting your arguments.

as for the corn state fan base: i do realize and appreciate that UNL's fanbase is spread out, but that actually makes a conference less attractive for them because conference tv contracts are inherently regional. that's why ND's best play up until nationally televised conference networks (and BTN is only barely nationally televised due to directv) was being on NBC.
from omaha.com:
http://www.omaha.com/article/20100830/BIGRED/708309872#the-big-ten-decision

Nebraska isn't the same as ND. ND has always been independent, and the system was built around ND being independent. ND has the independent schedule that acts as a conference schedule (many "rivalry" games that happen every year). Nebraska does not have that.

Independence, when considering from a traditionally conference affiliated school, is a nightmare and not something any of them want to get into.

Neither you nor I understand 1/10 of the complexities involved in conference alignments, we only have our speculations which may or may not be correct. However, from what I know and what I've followed (which is a lot), all roads lead to UT as being the primary problem. I see a lot of schools getting fed up with their antics. OU, UT's biggest ally in all of this, even came out and said "If we lose the RRR, then so be it." That says more about what's going on behind the scenes than the most informitive article I've read.

 

[ElFenix]

You ninja edited on me. But that article just states that all sporting content not covered under Big Ten contracts and NCAA contracts were sold. Not sure where you are getting that they were sold to the BTN.

i never said they were sold to the BTN.

Regardless, in that case, every school has the same rights, however, it falls AFTER the BTN. So what you are saying is that the B12 could have done the same thing, but UT wasn't interested in that, either. Not sure how that's supporting your arguments.

i'm saying that nothing is 100% equally shared. even the PAC's deal guarantees that USC and UCLA get a minimum amount of revenue first.

Nebraska isn't the same as ND. ND has always been independent, and the system was built around ND being independent. ND has the independent schedule that acts as a conference schedule (many "rivalry" games that happen every year). Nebraska does not have that.

Independence, when considering from a traditionally conference affiliated school, is a nightmare and not something any of them want to get into.

no duh. like i said, no one wants to get left out of the dance when it finally happens. but, they are similar in the fact that their fanbases aren't particularly concentrated (other than half a million in omaha).

Neither you nor I understand 1/10 of the complexities involved in conference alignments, we only have our speculations which may or may not be correct. However, from what I know and what I've followed (which is a lot), all roads lead to UT as being the primary problem. I see a lot of schools getting fed up with their antics. OU, UT's biggest ally in all of this, even came out and said "If we lose the RRR, then so be it." That says more about what's going on behind the scenes than the most informitive article I've read.

that was bob stoops who isn't quite privy to boren, powers, castiglione, and dodds. he's just providing the political cover for UT before the legislature.

 

[Drako]

is it carried on other providers? i honestly don't know.

Yes, it is carried by many providers across the country you may have heard of: AT&T U-Verse, Verizon FiOS, Charter Communications, Comcast, Cox Communications, Insight Communications, Mediacom Communications, Time Warner Cable, Cable One, Cablevision, etc.

Carried on satellite on both Dish and DircTV.

 

[preslove]

huh? i said that ohio state had sold its rights, and GotIssues asked for a link. i never said it was sold to the BTN. keep up with the thread and maybe you won't have as many questions.


is it carried on other providers? i honestly don't know.

I have such questions because you are spouting nonsense. The LHN is a lot bigger of a deal than "tier 3 rights" and high school games. I suspect that almost all of your posts here are BS. Why don't you post some links as evidence for all these supposedly nefarious Texas A&M votes you keep going on and on about?

 

[sao123]

A few good seasons in a bad conference does not a very good football program make.

Syracuse was enough of a stretch football-wise, I seriously hope they don't go after UCONN or Rutgers. Rutgers has a pretty big market, though.

WVU seems like another mouth to feed (despite the NYT's assertions to the contrary).

Conference realignment is for far more than football... the big east has many of the nations top ncaa mens BB teams... which many conference would die to have... even if it means taking on average football teams.

 

[ElFenix]

I have such questions because you are spouting nonsense. The LHN is a lot bigger of a deal than "tier 3 rights" and high school games. I suspect that almost all of your posts here are BS. Why don't you post some links as evidence for all these supposedly nefarious Texas A&M votes you keep going on and on about?

a&m claimed to leave over the high school games (well, that and the $$s) after being fine with the LHN last year. i really do think that half the SEC will have their own networks within the next 5 years.

finding vote records 15 years later is difficult but did find beebe stating UNL was 'most adamant' against (more) equal revenue sharing last year.
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=106137&SPID=13138&DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=205157134
naturally he wasn't willing to throw a&m under the bus at the time. maybe he will assuming the big xii collapses.

Yes, it is carried by many providers across the country you may have heard of: AT&T U-Verse, Verizon FiOS, Charter Communications, Comcast, Cox Communications, Insight Communications, Mediacom Communications, Time Warner Cable, Cable One, Cablevision, etc.

Carried on satellite on both Dish and DircTV.

right, but is it offered in, say, salt lake city?

 

[rcpratt]

Conference realignment is for far more than football... the big east has many of the nations top ncaa mens BB teams... which many conference would die to have... even if it means taking on average football teams.

I agree and obviously two great basketball programs changed conferences last weekend. It just seems to me that the ACC was already a little basketball heavy (at least in the last few years) and could use some football improvements, if possible.

 

[Drako]

right, but is it offered in, say, salt lake city?

Yep, on Comcast, and All West Utah, Inc.

http://btn.com/about/btn-channelfinder/

 

[sao123]

ohio state:
http://www.cbssports.com/general/story/11569497


as for the corn state fan base: i do realize and appreciate that UNL's fanbase is spread out, but that actually makes a conference less attractive for them because conference tv contracts are inherently regional (and, conversely, them attractive to a conference). that's why ND's best play up until nationally televised conference networks (and BTN is only barely nationally televised due to directv) was being on NBC. there's more clout in a concentrated fan base than in a spread out one.
from omaha.com:
http://www.omaha.com/article/20100830/BIGRED/708309872#the-big-ten-decision


and again, no one in the country had pledged all of their T3 to the conference. you can't make a near impossible demand and then complain when it isn't met. it's like a&m complaining that baylor won't sign away a legal right for free. not to mention UNL didn't guarantee they would stay in the conference if UT signed its T3 rights to the conference.

if by "barely"... you means enormously... the largest most successfule college sports network of its kind.

BTN has national agreements with both directv and dish, is owned 51% by FOX, has regional agreements with over regional 300 networks, and is available on cable in 19 of the nations 20 top media markets.
It is the first and only college network to be carried internationally, while currently reaching approximately 40M households nationwide, it is available on up to an estimated 73M households in the United States and Canada.

 

[CPA]

History is history. They can get back, but it's not a particularly good program now.

Maybe I'm just biased because when I was growing up, my team had accomplished absolutely nothing in their entire history, but has transformed into a perennial power. A program that I'm confident in saying has been a top 5 program in the last 10 to twelve years, and has the current record for straight 10-win seasons.

Basically something Syracuse had in the 80s and 90s until Greg Robinson came in. Syracuse is back on track and the ACC affiliation can only help with getting recruiting to a level we expect.

Also, you mentioned Rutgets above. Rutgers does not have a big market. They THINK they have a big market. Except for one season and one particular game, Louisville, about 5 years ago, they've done nothing. Absolutely nothing.

BTW, which is your team?

 

[ElFenix]

Yep, on Comcast, and All West Utah, Inc.

http://btn.com/about/btn-channelfinder/

about 75% of cable households (assuming people with cable get ESPN). ok.

espn figures:
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...-US-Household-Penetration-For-First-Time.aspx

 

[Fern]

It is just confirmation that the ACC doesn't give a shit about football. I wish my Clemson Tigers could jump to the SEC but we bring nothing to the table when it comes to tv marketshare.

FSu alum here. Yeah, many FSU alums are really angry about this. Others think the addition of those two with their basketball teams we bring more revenue. I'm no fan of BB, but some of our alums are saying college BB (unlike college FB) is big in the NE market.

I'm a football fan and wish the ACC was more football centric, but the North Carolina mafia runs things.

I'll withhold judgement until things finish shaking out. I'm hoping for a couple more schools that are much stronger in football.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Well I was really hoping that Pitt was going to the Big 10 to get that Penn State/Pitt rivalry going again. :\

I'm hearing rumors that Penn State may be interested in joining the ACC.

Also a lot of talk about Notre Dame joining the ACC. Recent editorials in Indiana newspapers are urging ND to go ACC etc.

We'll see.

Fern