Pistol-Packing Soccer Mom Sues Sheriff

Page 12 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Well said, Amused.

It's easy to get sucked into the argument, especially online, without considering the surrounding issues at play.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: Amused
Okay, I'm going to try to see this from the other point of view.

Atheus has grown up in a country in which the culture is, by it's very nature, afraid of firearms.

It is much the same way in major American cities. Not only does the government and media cultivate and feed these fears, but the very lack of any experience with firearms does it as well.

But go to a rural American town, and the attitude is 100% the opposite. Firearms are seen as tools and are as common as tools. People have a respect, but no fear of them. To see an armed man is a regular thing and produces no fear.

What we have here folks, is a culture difference. And one side will not understand the other without fully experiencing the culture of the other.

I think our side of the argument is trying to make Atheus understand that law abiding folks being armed present no real danger to others. The statistics prove this. But simply telling him that will not remove the fear that he has grown up with and has been spoon fed him by his local culture and media his entire life.

Actually I grew up in New Zealand and learned to shoot when I was about 11.

So have many people from your culture. But the difference is the overall attitude surrounding guns. Did you grow up seeing people wearing sidearms? Did you grow up with kids taking rifles to school so they could hunt on the way home?

There is a culture difference involved here. Of that there is no doubt.

And to call people irrational for simply being a product of their culture is really unfair.

Both sides here thinks the other is irrational and neither side has even tried to see where the other side is coming from.

I now understand where you are coming from and why seeing people armed would make you feel uncomfortable.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,650
203
106
Originally posted by: Atheus
This is logic:

1 - Fear of death is rational.
2 - A man carrying a weapon has more chance of killing someone, should he want to, than a man not carrying a weapon.
3 - Carrying a weapon does not change a person's personality and will not cause them to want to kill someone any more or less than they usually would.
4 - One's chances of dying are increased in the presence of armed men. (from 2 and 3)
5 - Fear of armed men is rational. (from 1 and 4)

That's the last time I'll make the point. I'm bored of it.

It doesn't mean I am personally sitting here shaking in my boots, or even that I am in any way uncomfortable with guns themselves, but if someone knocks on my door and they have a gun I am going to be a damn sight more worried than if they don't. That is all.

your argument fails at logic...

Clearly from 2&3 you are trying to eliminate intent from the equation, and simply stating that the mere presence of a weapon increases the chance that someone will die. This is a fundamentally flawed argument.
The ONLY thing that does matter is intent... if there is no intent, then the chance that someone will die from the mere presence of a weapon is ZERO... none... notta.

dont get me wrong...Accidents do happen, but the deaths from intent, vs the deaths by accidental discharge, or unintended target, do not compare. not even close.
the statistics are staggering...
From 2000-2005 the number of INTENTIONAL FIREARM RELATED DEATHS in the US was approx 173K, the number of UNINTENTIONAL FIREARM RELATED DEATHS in the US was approx 4.5K with another 1.4K undetermined cause. Thats a 39 to 1 difference.
And for a comparison, this same time period includes another 127K NON-FIREARM INTENTIONAL DEATHS and 645K NON-FIREARM UNINTENTIONAL DEATHS in that same time period.

The argument that the presence of a weapon without consideration of intent makes it more likely for a person to die is statistically inaccurate and fundamentally flawed.

NCIPC statistics page.

 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
I don't how why that lady felt the need to have her gun showed in public. What was the purpose? Why couldn't she have her gun tuck away and conceal?

I belive in 2nd Amend but I am not sure I want everyone walk around with guns out in the hoster like in the Wild Wild West or Bonanza.

I grew up in the south of the US (TX/LA/AR area), the land of gun enthusiatics and I never saw anyone with weapons in the open except law enforcements with ID/badge.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Originally posted by: Atheus
This is logic:

1 - Fear of death is rational.
2 - A man carrying a weapon has more chance of killing someone, should he want to, than a man not carrying a weapon.
3 - Carrying a weapon does not change a person's personality and will not cause them to want to kill someone any more or less than they usually would.
4 - One's chances of dying are increased in the presence of armed men. (from 2 and 3)
5 - Fear of armed men is rational. (from 1 and 4)

That's the last time I'll make the point. I'm bored of it.

It doesn't mean I am personally sitting here shaking in my boots, or even that I am in any way uncomfortable with guns themselves, but if someone knocks on my door and they have a gun I am going to be a damn sight more worried than if they don't. That is all.

Wow, that was almost sad.

1. Fear of death is rational, therefore a person who fears death is rational.
2. Death is always possible, but many different circumstances increase that chance.
3. It is not rational to always be afraid, but it is rational to be afraid when the chance increases to a certain threshold, therefore a rational person is afraid when he has reason to believe that a certain threshold of threat is reached.

I believe this is more the case you are trying to make in a logical format, not a strictly formal format, but I am lazy.

However, you wish to add a bit more
4. Other people being armed increases the chance of death.
And (here is the problematic part)
5. Other people being armed and in your presence is enough of an increase in the threat to make fear rational.

What you don't realize is that everyone around you is armed, just not as well as if they had a gun.

Now, you may be a big person, so this may not apply to you, but just for a moment, imagine that you are a 21 year old girl, you weigh about 110 pounds, and are about 5.5 feet tall. A large man you have never seen before is preventing you from getting to your car, and he is not armed, but he weighs around 250 pounds and is 6 foot tall.

This example should generate fear in the woman, its natural, and I would personally hate to experience anything like it. This fear is rational, but the fear of a man just because he is armed is not, and the reason is, intent. This man who is preventing her from reaching her car is demonstrating several very bad indications of a desire to do harm, and to control her.

For this hypothetical woman, if she were in the presence of the exact same man, but instead of trying to prevent her from reaching her car, he held the door open for her she would have no reason to be afraid.

In both of these examples the man IS ARMED, he is completely capable of inflicting lethal harm to our hypothetical woman. Women and men who are of small physical stature who lack any defense training live every day of their lives surrounded by men (and some scary women) who could kill them if they wished, it is not as fast and reliable as a gun, but it doesnt have to be. You may not realize this, but when everyone is unarmed it is the weak who are not safe, I assume from your comments that you have military training so you may not realize this but you most likely feel safer with everyone else being unarmed because you know you can win most unarmed fights.

Take a step back and realize that almost anyone is capable of killing someone else, without weapons it is just the strong who have that ability.
 

runzwithsizorz

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2002
3,497
14
76
Originally posted by: Amused
Okay, I'm going to try to see this from the other point of view.

Atheus has grown up in a country in which the culture is, by it's very nature, afraid of firearms.

It is much the same way in major American cities. Not only does the government and media cultivate and feed these fears, but the very lack of any experience with firearms does it as well.

But go to a rural American town, and the attitude is 100% the opposite. Firearms are seen as tools and are as common as tools. People have a respect, but no fear of them. To see an armed man is a regular thing and produces no fear.

What we have here folks, is a culture difference. And one side will not understand the other without fully experiencing the culture of the other.

I think our side of the argument is trying to make Atheus understand that law abiding folks being armed present no real danger to others. The statistics prove this. But simply telling him that will not remove the fear that he has grown up with and has been spoon fed him by his local culture and media his entire life.

I too, have been to these towns, and have seen this first hand, however, I would never go into the *big city* with my side arm strapped to my hip, much less to a kids soccer game, (under my coat, maaaaybee). This woman was looking for attention, and she got it. If I were the Sheriff, I might have pulled her permit as well, or at least given her a good talkin to about responsible gun ownership, and CONCEALED carry.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Originally posted by: Amused
Okay, I'm going to try to see this from the other point of view.

Atheus has grown up in a country in which the culture is, by it's very nature, afraid of firearms.

It is much the same way in major American cities. Not only does the government and media cultivate and feed these fears, but the very lack of any experience with firearms does it as well.

But go to a rural American town, and the attitude is 100% the opposite. Firearms are seen as tools and are as common as tools. People have a respect, but no fear of them. To see an armed man is a regular thing and produces no fear.

What we have here folks, is a culture difference. And one side will not understand the other without fully experiencing the culture of the other.

I think our side of the argument is trying to make Atheus understand that law abiding folks being armed present no real danger to others. The statistics prove this. But simply telling him that will not remove the fear that he has grown up with and has been spoon fed him by his local culture and media his entire life.

I too, have been to these towns, and have seen this first hand, however, I would never go into the *big city* with my side arm strapped to my hip, much less to a kids soccer game, (under my coat, maaaaybee). This woman was looking for attention, and she got it. If I were the Sheriff, I might have pulled her permit as well, or at least given her a good talkin to about responsible gun ownership, and CONCEALED carry.

Again, she broke no law and open carry is legal in PA.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Originally posted by: Amused
Okay, I'm going to try to see this from the other point of view.

Atheus has grown up in a country in which the culture is, by it's very nature, afraid of firearms.

It is much the same way in major American cities. Not only does the government and media cultivate and feed these fears, but the very lack of any experience with firearms does it as well.

But go to a rural American town, and the attitude is 100% the opposite. Firearms are seen as tools and are as common as tools. People have a respect, but no fear of them. To see an armed man is a regular thing and produces no fear.

What we have here folks, is a culture difference. And one side will not understand the other without fully experiencing the culture of the other.

I think our side of the argument is trying to make Atheus understand that law abiding folks being armed present no real danger to others. The statistics prove this. But simply telling him that will not remove the fear that he has grown up with and has been spoon fed him by his local culture and media his entire life.

I too, have been to these towns, and have seen this first hand, however, I would never go into the *big city* with my side arm strapped to my hip, much less to a kids soccer game, (under my coat, maaaaybee). This woman was looking for attention, and she got it. If I were the Sheriff, I might have pulled her permit as well, or at least given her a good talkin to about responsible gun ownership, and CONCEALED carry.

Again, she broke no law and open carry is legal in PA.

It sure would be nice if people would do a little reading before posting, as this point has been covered at least 10 times in this thread alone.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,650
203
106
Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Originally posted by: Amused
Okay, I'm going to try to see this from the other point of view.

Atheus has grown up in a country in which the culture is, by it's very nature, afraid of firearms.

It is much the same way in major American cities. Not only does the government and media cultivate and feed these fears, but the very lack of any experience with firearms does it as well.

But go to a rural American town, and the attitude is 100% the opposite. Firearms are seen as tools and are as common as tools. People have a respect, but no fear of them. To see an armed man is a regular thing and produces no fear.

What we have here folks, is a culture difference. And one side will not understand the other without fully experiencing the culture of the other.

I think our side of the argument is trying to make Atheus understand that law abiding folks being armed present no real danger to others. The statistics prove this. But simply telling him that will not remove the fear that he has grown up with and has been spoon fed him by his local culture and media his entire life.

I too, have been to these towns, and have seen this first hand, however, I would never go into the *big city* with my side arm strapped to my hip, much less to a kids soccer game, (under my coat, maaaaybee). This woman was looking for attention, and she got it. If I were the Sheriff, I might have pulled her permit as well, or at least given her a good talkin to about responsible gun ownership, and CONCEALED carry.


where does it say she went into the *big city*??
She went into Lebanon PA, a medium size town of about 15000 people...


your entire point has already been debunked...

open carry != looking for attention
open carry != showing off

ALL legal handgun owners can open carry ANYWHERE in PA without a permit (except in the city limits of pittsburgh & philadelphia).

in fact, if she did not have a permit, she would be REQUIRED to open carry... so there is nothing wrong with what she did.

 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: Atheus
This is logic:

1 - Fear of death is rational.
2 - A man carrying a weapon has more chance of killing someone, should he want to, than a man not carrying a weapon.
3 - Carrying a weapon does not change a person's personality and will not cause them to want to kill someone any more or less than they usually would.
4 - One's chances of dying are increased in the presence of armed men. (from 2 and 3)
5 - Fear of armed men is rational. (from 1 and 4)

That's the last time I'll make the point. I'm bored of it.

It doesn't mean I am personally sitting here shaking in my boots, or even that I am in any way uncomfortable with guns themselves, but if someone knocks on my door and they have a gun I am going to be a damn sight more worried than if they don't. That is all.

1 COMPLETELY FALSE. There's no reason to fear death...it's natural, and inevitable. Fearing it is irrational.
2 COMPLETELY FALSE. A man with a weapon AT THE TIME he attempts to harm another has a greater chance of succeeding (if that other person isn't able to defend themselves adequately). A man with a weapon at random has basically NO chance of killing someone, because having a weapons is in no way an indicator of intent, nor is it capable of action on its own. Since statistically people carrying weapons lawfully do not attempt to harm others with it, a person carrying a weapon actually has LESS of a chance to kill someone than a person not carrying a weapon, unless it is in the process of doing the killing - ie it is the use of the weapon, not the carrying of it, which increases the chance of injury inflicted.

4 COMPLETELY FALSE as per 2 above.

5 COMPLETELY FALSE as per 2, 4 above.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Originally posted by: Amused
Okay, I'm going to try to see this from the other point of view.

Atheus has grown up in a country in which the culture is, by it's very nature, afraid of firearms.

It is much the same way in major American cities. Not only does the government and media cultivate and feed these fears, but the very lack of any experience with firearms does it as well.

But go to a rural American town, and the attitude is 100% the opposite. Firearms are seen as tools and are as common as tools. People have a respect, but no fear of them. To see an armed man is a regular thing and produces no fear.

What we have here folks, is a culture difference. And one side will not understand the other without fully experiencing the culture of the other.

I think our side of the argument is trying to make Atheus understand that law abiding folks being armed present no real danger to others. The statistics prove this. But simply telling him that will not remove the fear that he has grown up with and has been spoon fed him by his local culture and media his entire life.

I too, have been to these towns, and have seen this first hand, however, I would never go into the *big city* with my side arm strapped to my hip, much less to a kids soccer game, (under my coat, maaaaybee). This woman was looking for attention, and she got it. If I were the Sheriff, I might have pulled her permit as well, or at least given her a good talkin to about responsible gun ownership, and CONCEALED carry.

Then you will probably lose your job, and be sued, because it's a violation to do so. She acted correctly.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Originally posted by: sao123
ALL legal handgun owners can open carry ANYWHERE in PA without a permit (except in the city limits of pittsburgh & philadelphia).

I'm pretty sure Philly is the only city in PA that is considered to be a city of the first class, therefore, it is the only exception.
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
I don't want an emotional person with a gun just like I don't want a drunk with a gun. Both are able to do something without fully thinking of the consequences. People at these soccer games get ridiculous, I had parents get thrown out because they threatened to beat me up when I was line reffing because parents don't fucking understand off-side calls and the such in this sport.

It sounds like she might have been gun crazy, I wonder if it finally caught up with her. Did she finally try to solve a problem with her gun? It'll be interesting to see more information turn up in this case.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: skace
I don't want an emotional person with a gun just like I don't want a drunk with a gun. Both are able to do something without fully thinking of the consequences. People at these soccer games get ridiculous, I had parents get thrown out because they threatened to beat me up when I was line reffing because parents don't fucking understand off-side calls and the such in this sport.

It sounds like she might have been gun crazy, I wonder if it finally caught up with her. Did she finally try to solve a problem with her gun? It'll be interesting to see more information turn up in this case.

Guess you didn't read the article. Hubby shot her in a murder suicide.
 

mchammer187

Diamond Member
Nov 26, 2000
9,114
0
76
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: skace
I don't want an emotional person with a gun just like I don't want a drunk with a gun. Both are able to do something without fully thinking of the consequences. People at these soccer games get ridiculous, I had parents get thrown out because they threatened to beat me up when I was line reffing because parents don't fucking understand off-side calls and the such in this sport.

It sounds like she might have been gun crazy, I wonder if it finally caught up with her. Did she finally try to solve a problem with her gun? It'll be interesting to see more information turn up in this case.

Guess you didn't read the article. Hubby shot her in a murder suicide.

Where does it say that?

Lebanon City police tell CBS 21 News they are investigating the death of a couple.
Tonight, police say they found 31 year old Melanie Hain and 33 year old Scott Hain dead inside their home on S. Second Avenue.
Police say it looks like a murder-suicide.
CBS 21 news has interviewed Melanie Hain in the past. You may remember her from a story we did when she wore a gun on her hip to her child's soccer game.

Police say the death investigation is ongoing and autopsies have been scheduled.
Copyright 2009 Newport Television LLC All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: spidey07
Guess you didn't read the article. Hubby shot her in a murder suicide.

Which article? All I see is possible murder-suicide, it doesn't say who the muderer-suicider was.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Originally posted by: CPA
I'm having a hard time understanding this. What judgement is needed? She carried legally. Maybe the parents who freaked out about it should have used better judgement.

Carrying a handgun to a kid's soccer practice is not exercising terribly great judgment. In the past decade, we have become inundated with stories of school shootings (Columbine, Westboro, Thurston High, Virginia Tech, dozens of others), to the point that parents have become hyper-cautious whenever guns are going to be in the vicinity of children. It's a heightened state of awareness. Is it right? No, not necessarily. But there are times where you don't exercise your constitutional right just because you can. That's called being a decent human being. Wearing an open-carry handgun at a kid's soccer game is ludicrous, whether it's legal or not.

And given how things turned out in this case, it looks like the sheriff may have been clairvoyant.

This is the problem that gun supporters face. Every now and then, a gun supporter ends up involved in a crime where innocent people die. This rallies people around anti-gun laws. When anti-gun nuts freak out, no one gets shot to death. I'm not anti-gun; I believe people should be allowed to legally own firearms for a variety of reasons. But I am very strongly anti-idiot; I believe we need some pretty strict licensing requirements to own a firearm. Taking a handgun to a kid's soccer game? That's fucking idiotic. And that idiot should never have been allowed a gun to begin with.
 

PepePeru

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2005
3,846
0
0
if she was indeed the murdered then she should have been open carrying at home where it was apparently needed and not at a child's soccer game as some sort of statement (or whatever her reasons were).
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: spidey07
Guess you didn't read the article. Hubby shot her in a murder suicide.

Which article? All I see is possible murder-suicide, it doesn't say who the muderer-suicider was.

Sorry. I'm following it on another forum with much more articles. Guess I got the threads mixed up. That's the going ASSupmtion based on the kids running out saying "daddy shot mommy!"