*Pics of my new rifle*

[Mo0o]

Someone's been playing too much cs.

 

[jciiv]

Originally posted by: Mookow

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: Mookow
You need to re-read that. The terminal ballistics on 5.56mm ball against flesh is only superior when it fragments. From the ammo oracle chart, that means for 20" barrels, M193 fragments reliably out to about 200m, and M855 out to 150m. For a 16" barrel, those numbers drop to 150m and 90m.

And if you want to see real fragmentation, read the bit about the West German manufactured 7.62mm with the thin jacket. Chunky.

Besides, if you made a bullet in 7.62mm NATO along the lines of the M193 or M855 in terms of construction, that hypothetical 7.62mm round would spank the M855 or M193.

5.56mm (m193) does fragment when the velocity is over 2700 fps. So as long as you're within that range, you should be good. But the new 75gr. TAP will fragment even out of a 11.5" bbl.

So the way I see it, with the lighter weight you can carry more ammo, and have better follow up shots.

So within normal combat ranges, a gun in 5.56mm is pretty unbeatable, on the whole.

I agree that a fragmenting bullet in a larger caliber would spank M855 or M193.

Are we comparing ball, or any ammo? Hornady TAP rounds certainly arent ball, and I doubt that they will ever be used by the military in large numbers.

Besides, having spoken to someone who put 5 solid torso hits into a running Iraqi, an Iraqi who continued to fight effectively for another five minutes or so, my faith in the M855 very very small. Especially out of shorter barrels, it doesnt have the legs or the balls to be considered an adequate combat round. Now, granted the recoil and weight of the 5.56mm is lower than just about any alternative out there, but when you can put five solid torso shots on a man and he doesnt go down... you've given up too much power unless it was a total fluke. And it wasnt much of a fluke.

M855 blows. It hasn't had a great track record at all. The only reason we use it instead of m193 is because some NATO recquirement that it be able to penetrate a helmet at 600m. It has sh***y fragmenting properties.

m193, however, will make hamburger out of your insides.

 

[jciiv]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Someone's been playing too much cs.

:roll:

Its a goddamn coincidence. I have had the lower since before I heard about CS.

 

[DeadByDawn]

Mine

 

You love thoes weapons.
Gotta replace that pea shooter in your pants!

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: MagicConch

Originally posted by: 3NF
What do you shoot with that, people?

That much fire power is necessary for real home security in today's America (maybe not, but maybe so). Besides it's the principal of the thing. Once these type of guns begin to be banned, it sets a precedent that will allow enroachment on this freedom to become easier and easier. More and more acceptable until bans that would be obviously wrong today become possible.

One thing those who despise guns forget is that these strong individuals are that they ones who protect America from harm when fit hits the shan. We all enjoy the security of the military - how would that be possible without guns. Yet still these guys have to fight a personal war for the 'privledge' to protect the very people who want to rip the 2nd ammendment from the constitution.

That's how the guy who used to own my of my house sold his point of view. :laugh: I am sitting in the converted 'gun room' now (ie office now). there were racks of guns and dead heads of animals hung on the wall. lol.

That is next to nothing firepower. I hate it when people keep saying that. It is a very cheap cartridge designed for squirels and groundhogs and prarie dogs.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: SampSon
You love thoes weapons.
Gotta replace that pea shooter in your pants!

They're actually a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[jciiv]

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: MagicConch

Originally posted by: 3NF
What do you shoot with that, people?

That much fire power is necessary for real home security in today's America (maybe not, but maybe so). Besides it's the principal of the thing. Once these type of guns begin to be banned, it sets a precedent that will allow enroachment on this freedom to become easier and easier. More and more acceptable until bans that would be obviously wrong today become possible.

One thing those who despise guns forget is that these strong individuals are that they ones who protect America from harm when fit hits the shan. We all enjoy the security of the military - how would that be possible without guns. Yet still these guys have to fight a personal war for the 'privledge' to protect the very people who want to rip the 2nd ammendment from the constitution.

That's how the guy who used to own my of my house sold his point of view. :laugh: I am sitting in the converted 'gun room' now (ie office now). there were racks of guns and dead heads of animals hung on the wall. lol.

That is next to nothing firepower. I hate it when people keep saying that. It is a very cheap cartridge designed for squirels and groundhogs and prarie dogs.

While I agree with your intent- sorta-, 5.56 55gr m193 will kill a human easily. Remember the DC "sniper" shootins (as much as I hate to bring that up), as well as the 75gr TAp rounds.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: Mookow

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: Mookow
You need to re-read that. The terminal ballistics on 5.56mm ball against flesh is only superior when it fragments. From the ammo oracle chart, that means for 20" barrels, M193 fragments reliably out to about 200m, and M855 out to 150m. For a 16" barrel, those numbers drop to 150m and 90m.

And if you want to see real fragmentation, read the bit about the West German manufactured 7.62mm with the thin jacket. Chunky.

Besides, if you made a bullet in 7.62mm NATO along the lines of the M193 or M855 in terms of construction, that hypothetical 7.62mm round would spank the M855 or M193.

5.56mm (m193) does fragment when the velocity is over 2700 fps. So as long as you're within that range, you should be good. But the new 75gr. TAP will fragment even out of a 11.5" bbl.

So the way I see it, with the lighter weight you can carry more ammo, and have better follow up shots.

So within normal combat ranges, a gun in 5.56mm is pretty unbeatable, on the whole.

I agree that a fragmenting bullet in a larger caliber would spank M855 or M193.

Are we comparing ball, or any ammo? Hornady TAP rounds certainly arent ball, and I doubt that they will ever be used by the military in large numbers.

Besides, having spoken to someone who put 5 solid torso hits into a running Iraqi, an Iraqi who continued to fight effectively for another five minutes or so, my faith in the M855 very very small. Especially out of shorter barrels, it doesnt have the legs or the balls to be considered an adequate combat round. Now, granted the recoil and weight of the 5.56mm is lower than just about any alternative out there, but when you can put five solid torso shots on a man and he doesnt go down... you've given up too much power unless it was a total fluke. And it wasnt much of a fluke.

M855 blows. It hasn't had a great track record at all. The only reason we use it instead of m193 is because some NATO recquirement that it be able to penetrate a helmet at 600m. It has sh***y fragmenting properties.

m193, however, will make hamburger out of your insides.

M193's fragmentation isnt all that much better than M855. It'll fragment at longer distances, and it fragments a bit sooner after impact, but I'd rather be shooting some of the previously referenced West German 7.62mm rounds.

M855 was definitely a step down for just about all aspects of 5.56mm performance, except for the apparently all important "on paper" aspect. Goddamn REMFs.

M193
M855

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: MagicConch

Originally posted by: 3NF
What do you shoot with that, people?

That much fire power is necessary for real home security in today's America (maybe not, but maybe so). Besides it's the principal of the thing. Once these type of guns begin to be banned, it sets a precedent that will allow enroachment on this freedom to become easier and easier. More and more acceptable until bans that would be obviously wrong today become possible.

One thing those who despise guns forget is that these strong individuals are that they ones who protect America from harm when fit hits the shan. We all enjoy the security of the military - how would that be possible without guns. Yet still these guys have to fight a personal war for the 'privledge' to protect the very people who want to rip the 2nd ammendment from the constitution.

That's how the guy who used to own my of my house sold his point of view. :laugh: I am sitting in the converted 'gun room' now (ie office now). there were racks of guns and dead heads of animals hung on the wall. lol.

That is next to nothing firepower. I hate it when people keep saying that. It is a very cheap cartridge designed for squirels and groundhogs and prarie dogs.

While I agree with your intent- sorta-, 5.56 55gr m193 will kill a human easily. Remember the DC "sniper" shootins (as much as I hate to bring that up), as well as the 75gr TAp rounds.

Point was at close range they arn't much more effective than .22LR hollow point ammo.

Also there were a decent amount of survivors and if you campare survivors to head shots about half of the ones that didn't get shot in the head lived. That incident wouldn't have been such an issue had it not been for accuracy.

 

[RagingBITCH]

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
can i sum this thread up?

REDNECKS

the end

MIKE

GO back to your 80 year old Marantz receiver and let the real men have a discussion

 

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: SampSon
You love thoes weapons.
Gotta replace that pea shooter in your pants!

They're actually a lot of fun to shoot.

Yes I know, I've shot quite a few guns. I even went to one of thoes gun ranges just outside of las vegas.

The pictures people have of all their weapons grouped together just crack me up.

 

[stinkynathan]

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: DJFuji

Originally posted by: RagingBITCH

Originally posted by: DJFuji

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: DJFuji

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Because theres so many drive by bayonettings......

LOL. Good point. I find that rationale irritating as to why they outlaw throwing stars but guns are fine...

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Very light recoil, good terminal ballistics, cheap rounds. Its an excellent gun. And more then capable of going 1000 yards. Very good round, just not big enough (In my mind) for deer.

I'm not aware of any M16 or standard variation thereof that can fire a 5.56mm round with >1000yd accuracy on point targets. Even area target accuracy is max 800 yds with the m16 and its more accurate than the M4s. Are you talking about some specialized sniper rifle firing the 5.56?

M16s can hit point targets at 600yrds and area targets at 800 yrds. You're correct.

But the M16 is not more accurate than the M4- it just has more range. Out to about 300yrds, An M4 will shoot about the same as an 16. The M16 just has a longer bbl which gives more velocity, which gives more range. A shortner bbl is actually a little more accurate than a longer one since it is more stout and has less bbl whip and harmoic vibration.

It's actually technically "550 meters" but i'll let ya slide on that one... Yeah, what i meant by "more accurate" was that it can hit more accurately at longer ranges. But you know what i meant. I'm still wondering what that "1000+ yds" meant with that other guy.

Hey DJ - don't Marines have to qualify @ 500 yards yearly? Army is 100 correct? I was about to point out the 300 yards accuracy thing but seems like you did that quite well

BTW - is Palm Springs a Marine or a Navy base?

Yes, that's correct-- Marines have to qualify at 200/300/500 meters every year. The 500 is pushing the limits on the theoretical 550m maximum effective range but hitting the target is actually easier than you think assuming your target is DEAD still, you're in the prone with a good minute for setup and target acquisition, and you're a good marksman. Breathing is most important on the 500yd line.

I'm not sure what the Army qualifies at...i thought it was 200m or something. I know for a fact that it's not 500 though. One of the differences between the Army and USMC is like the difference between a startup software development company and Microsoft. At Microsoft (aka the Army), theyre large enough where you have a specialized role so that the DBAs can specialize and not have to worry about coding or designing web sites. At the startup company (aka USMC), you're so freakin small that you have to wear many hats. And because the company probably specializes in a certain niche market of software, everyone is probably a developer FIRST and a dba/design guy/network tech SECOND. In the USMC every Marine is a rifleman. We give the Army hell all the time but in reality we simply serve different purposes. The Army is like the machine gunner- slow, immobile, but lots of firepower. The USMC is like the scout-- quick, easily deployable, but not designed for major sustained combat operations.

If you're talking about 29 Palms, that's a Marine base. I'm not sure if there's another separate base in Palm Springs though.

Sorry for the length...

I believe the Army does at 50, and 300 meters. Which is also know as the "improved battle sight" for the AR15 family. POA/POI is the same at 50 and 300 meters with this set up.

I just figured I'd comment on this since I get to do it once or so a year.

When available, the Army uses a pop-up range that has timed, pop-up silhouettes that range from 50m to 300m. You get 20 shots supported, and 20 shots unsupported.

When a popup range isn't available we end up shooting paper @ 25m (simulated silhouette ranges from 50-300m). Makes it pretty easy

Nice rifle! I'm thinking about getting one this summer. Roomate is upping me with all his toys (AR-15, .308, Kimber .45, Glock mini, NV scope too )

back to lurking..........

nate

 

[tranceport]

Wife wants a m16.. I guess a bushmaster a2 is the best bet...

I like the m4 style.

 

[MisterFloppy]

Originally posted by: tranceport
Wife wants a m16.. I guess a bushmaster a2 is the best bet...

I like the m4 style.

Pfft, go all the way and get her this: http://www.impactguns.com/store/MGT-PJH7777.html

 

[classy]

Wow look at all these tough guys. I am so glad I was born with manhood.

 

[jciiv]

Originally posted by: classy
Wow look at all these tough guys. I am so glad I was born with manhood.

yeah, real classy, douche.

I bet mine's bigger than your pathetic little snausage.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: classy
Wow look at all these tough guys. I am so glad I was born with manhood.

yeah, real classy, douche.

I bet mine's bigger than your pathetic little snausage.

Dude it is clear you have 2 sunflower seeds wrapped in a used bubble gum wrapper, thats the reason for the arsenal. Gotta make up for the lack in some way.
Me? Two grapefruits resting in a Gucci bag. No need for anything else but them.

 

[JDub02]

nice rifle. every time i scrape together the $$ to finish my build, it's needed elsewhere ... my truck needs tires at the moment. maybe it'll finally get finished in another 3-4 months.

 

[jciiv]

Originally posted by: classy

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: classy
Wow look at all these tough guys. I am so glad I was born with manhood.

yeah, real classy, douche.

I bet mine's bigger than your pathetic little snausage.

Dude it is clear you have 2 sunflower seeds wrapped in a used bubble gum wrapper, thats the reason for the arsenal. Gotta make up for the lack in some way.
Me? Two grapefruits resting in a Gucci bag. No need for anything else but them.

You must really, really, really, like balls.

 

[Acanthus]

:laugh:

Originally posted by: classy

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: classy
Wow look at all these tough guys. I am so glad I was born with manhood.

yeah, real classy, douche.

I bet mine's bigger than your pathetic little snausage.

Dude it is clear you have 2 sunflower seeds wrapped in a used bubble gum wrapper, thats the reason for the arsenal. Gotta make up for the lack in some way.
Me? Two grapefruits resting in a Gucci bag. No need for anything else but them.

Until someone shoots it off

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: RagingBITCH

Originally posted by: DJFuji

Yes, that's correct-- Marines have to qualify at 200/300/500 meters every year. The 500 is pushing the limits on the theoretical 550m maximum effective range but hitting the target is actually easier than you think assuming your target is DEAD still, you're in the prone with a good minute for setup and target acquisition, and you're a good marksman. Breathing is most important on the 500yd line.

I'm not sure what the Army qualifies at...i thought it was 200m or something. I know for a fact that it's not 500 though. One of the differences between the Army and USMC is like the difference between a startup software development company and Microsoft. At Microsoft (aka the Army), theyre large enough where you have a specialized role so that the DBAs can specialize and not have to worry about coding or designing web sites. At the startup company (aka USMC), you're so freakin small that you have to wear many hats. And because the company probably specializes in a certain niche market of software, everyone is probably a developer FIRST and a dba/design guy/network tech SECOND. In the USMC every Marine is a rifleman. We give the Army hell all the time but in reality we simply serve different purposes. The Army is like the machine gunner- slow, immobile, but lots of firepower. The USMC is like the scout-- quick, easily deployable, but not designed for major sustained combat operations.

If you're talking about 29 Palms, that's a Marine base. I'm not sure if there's another separate base in Palm Springs though.

Sorry for the length...

Ahh ok, thanks for the clarification. And yea, I meant 29 Palms. My brother in law went to boot at Pendleton (he's a Navy medic, did the 2 month condensed boot, he just can't wear the honor guard uniform). He and my sister are saying Palms is, um, about the last choice of bases anyone wants to be stationed at. Didn't know if you had personal experience to comment on that or not

Yeah i was stationed there for a little while. It's not the worst possible place to be stationed but it sure is at the bottom of the list. The only good thing is that LA is only 2 hours away so you can always make the drive on the weekends and stuff. Weather is pretty bad and there's nothing real local though. On the bright side, the food at the chow halls is some of the best in the Marine Corps. It still doesn't compare to the USAF food but none of our chow halls ever do.

 

[Blazin Trav]

AR looks sick. Good choice.

 

[IHYLN]

Originally posted by: 3NF
What do you shoot with that, people?

Yeah like when the US government becomes a fascist military state then you are gonna want us to have guns. then what? fight em with sticks and bad words?

 

[mobobuff]

Originally posted by: classy

Originally posted by: jciiv

Originally posted by: classy
Wow look at all these tough guys. I am so glad I was born with manhood.

yeah, real classy, douche.

I bet mine's bigger than your pathetic little snausage.

Dude it is clear you have 2 sunflower seeds wrapped in a used bubble gum wrapper, thats the reason for the arsenal. Gotta make up for the lack in some way.
Me? Two grapefruits resting in a Gucci bag. No need for anything else but them.

:laugh:

A- on descriptive visuals
B+ on sentence arrangement
D- for unneeded use of tongue smiley
B- on overall ownage :thumbsup: