Picking up my Mitsubishi I MiEV tonight

[vi edit]

The OP bought one.. I am having a hard time trying to understand what the point of your post is.

I think his point is that there is a lot of interest and promises but a lack of commitment. Which is true. There *IS* a lot of interest. I love the idea of being completely untethered to the gas industry and going emissions* free.

But, not for the sticker prices these things are going for. Or for *really* wanting to give up that much freedom of range without needing a second car to go farther than an hour at a time.

When you have something like a Prius C that gets you almost 50MPG combined for around $20k with no massive credits needed and no real compromise other than acceleration (which is still faster than an EV) then the allure of an all EV at $30k+ less any possible credits just really starts to fizzle out.

Or even disregarding the hybrids, when you have a Hyundai Elantra, Mazda 3 or Focus that gets you 40MPG (or close to it) on normal gas for $17,000 then it starts to make even less financial sense.

We have to applaud the early adopters, they put their money where their mouth is. And they are the only way we are going to see these things progress. Until sales are actually there in mass they'll never be a viable option.

15 years ago I never would have guessed that the Prius would be the hit that it is today. And it really is a popular car that has matured a lot. It's gotten much larger, more efficient, and actually a reasonable value in it's size class for the options and milage it provides.

Who knows what the EV market will be in 15 years.

*While I know EV's are emission free the power plants you charge them from aren't.

 

[LTC8K6]

Its interesting seeing comments like 'I want one' or 'im considering one!'

I can't believe anyone on this board has one in the first place... nobody is buying this car... just like no one is buying a volt. Its not that I have anything against these cars, but it seems like the public acts like they really want one... until it is released and then sits on the lot forever.

This car is not for me, but I could easily see me purchasing an electric Focus as an around town car. I wouldn't have any problem using the Focus for my 10 mile round trip for work.

If it wasn't so much more expensive than a regular car that gets good mileage, that is...

 

[vi edit]

And as far as interest goes, if I had money flowing out of my ears I'd be standing in line for a Tesla Model S. That thing looks awesome, seats 4(or 6), is faster than many sports cars, and has a range of almost 300 miles. It's the perfect EV for what I want/need in an EV.

But I don't have $60,000 just laying around looking for a good home.

 

[MovingTarget]

Honestly, like the volt, the leaf, the insight, and the prius before them, a lot of people are legitimately interested but have to wait for them to trickle down into the used market to be able to afford a car....any car. A MiEV would make a lot of sense for someone like me, but I have to be able to afford to get a new vehicle first. My next car WILL be an electric vehicle.

 

[busydude]

I think his point is that there is a lot of interest and promises but a lack of commitment. Which is true. There *IS* a lot of interest. I love the idea of being completely untethered to the gas industry and going emissions* free.

But, not for the sticker prices these things are going for. Or for *really* wanting to give up that much freedom of range without needing a second car to go farther than an hour at a time.

When you have something like a Prius C that gets you almost 50MPG combined for around $20k with no massive credits needed and no real compromise other than acceleration (which is still faster than an EV) then the allure of an all EV at $30k+ less any possible credits just really starts to fizzle out.

Or even disregarding the hybrids, when you have a Hyundai Elantra, Mazda 3 or Focus that gets you 40MPG (or close to it) on normal gas for $17,000 then it starts to make even less financial sense.

We have to applaud the early adopters, they put their money where their mouth is. And they are the only way we are going to see these things progress. Until sales are actually there in mass they'll never be a viable option.

15 years ago I never would have guessed that the Prius would be the hit that it is today. And it really is a popular car that has matured a lot. It's gotten much larger, more efficient, and actually a reasonable value in it's size class for the options and milage it provides.

Who knows what the EV market will be in 15 years.

*While I know EV's are emission free the power plants you charge them from aren't.

Thanks for the explanation, and I agree with you 100%.

Any new tech, until it is mass produced, will be expensive.... and most of these products do not make any money for its company.

 

[Evadman]

That's not entirely true. Discharging a battery, any battery, to 100% depth of discharge is bad for it. This has always been the case, again with any battery. The deeper the depth of discharge, the fewer cycles you'll get out of the battery. Here's some info on cycle life: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

You can see that with a 10% depth of discharge, cycle life increases dramatically.

I'm saying my research points to battery life being more a function of the total power going though the battery, and that page (along with most battery manufacturers) count in cycles and depth of discharge (DoD). Let's use the cycle counts on that page and do some quick math. Let's assume a 16KWH battery pack, which is what the MiEV has. That way, we can compare it to the car in this thread.

With a DoD of 100%, the rated cycles is 500. At 50%, it is 1500. At 25% it is 2500 and at 10% it is 4700 cycles. That sounds like a lot, right? But since the purpose of the battery is to move the car, we need to measure in something besides cycles. Propulsive effort or work is measured in KWH (kilowatt hours). The total KWH able to be put out by the battery over the life of the battery would therefore be the total KWH put into the battery, or DoD times the cycle count times the total KWH. This means a 100% DoD would put 16 KWH, and a 10% would be 1.6 KWH. No matter how far the battery is DoD'd, the car will still move the same distance per KWH expended by the motor (assuming exact same driving conditions)

So using that page, at 100% DoD, a 16KWH battery will store a total of 500 cycle * 1 DoD * 16 KWH, or 16000 total KWH. But what about the other end of the spectrum? at 10% DoD, the total will be 4700 cycle * 0.1 DoD * 16 KWH, or 15040 KWH. So at 100% DoD the car will be able to use 16000 KWH over the life of the battery or at 10%, be able to use 15040. The battery is more efficient by being 100% DoD than 10% DoD because over its life, it will be able to transfer more KWH at 100% DoD than 10%.

If the car has to move the same amount of distance over its life, then cycle count is probably not the best way to look at battery life.

 

[MovingTarget]

Evadman, a question: How's the insurance rate on the MiEV? Would you say that is more or less reasonable than your truck? (assuming you had full coverage on it...)

 

[Evadman]

Evadman, a question: How's the insurance rate on the MiEV? Would you say that is more or less reasonable than your truck? (assuming you had full coverage on it...)

I had liability only on my truck, and full coverage on the MiEV. The MiEV is less. Both are too high.

 

[Howard]

And as far as interest goes, if I had money flowing out of my ears I'd be standing in line for a Tesla Model S. That thing looks awesome, seats 4(or 6), is faster than many sports cars, and has a range of almost 300 miles. It's the perfect EV for what I want/need in an EV.

But I don't have $60,000 just laying around looking for a good home.

Battery issues.

 

[MovingTarget]

I had liability only on my truck, and full coverage on the MiEV. The MiEV is less. Both are too high.

Wow thats....not what I expected. Liability coverage only for a v10 dodge truck costs more than full coverage for a brand new MiEV? Damn...

 

[Evadman]

I have had the car for a little over a week now. So far, I have not had to use my FJ for anything. The car is working fine for it's intended purpose of taking care of the daily trips. I have had a few people in the car, and the acceleration doesn't seem to change much when it is full of passengers.

I still hate the shift lever. The detents are asinine, and the post still hurts my knee. It can take high speed corners fine and does not feel like it will tip over, probably because the batteries keep the center of gravity really low.

So far, I have spent about $8 on electricity, when my FJ would have used $71 in fuel.

 

[NutBucket]

Nice update

 

[nitrous9200]

Nice update

Yes, more of this please.

 

[tonymil1]

So far, I have spent about $8 on electricity, when my FJ would have used $71 in fuel.

Just curious as to how you're calculating electricity cost.

 

[LTC8K6]

It's what, $1.50 for a full recharge? Say 14Kwh if the battery is low.

 

[Evadman]

Just curious as to how you're calculating electricity cost.

It's what, $1.50 for a full recharge? Say 14Kwh if the battery is low.

I use just under 1/2 of the energy in the battery in a trip to and back from work (and other errands), and I have a 16 kwh battery. 8 days, 8 kwh/day, 64 total kwh. 11 cents per kwh for me, so total is $7.04. ~10% charging loss would be $7.75. Another way to look at it is I have gone 302 miles. An average estimate of miles per 'tank' is 70 according to the start mileage on the range meter, so 4.3 full 'tanks'. A 'tank' would be 16 kwh, so 69 total kwh.

These 2 different ways of estimating are only about 7% off from each other (+/- 3.5%), so I think $8 is a good rounded estimate without bothering to use a meter.

 

[JCH13]

..

 

[Tiamat]

Here's the MiEV vs my truck. Bye Ram, you served me well these past 11 years.

Interesting picture. talk about crazy level of difference. Not many similarities between those two vehicles

 

[Evadman]

Interesting picture. talk about crazy level of difference. Not many similarities between those two vehicles

Interesting fact: The MiEV has 112 MPG, and I am usually at 70 miles to empty with a full charge. It has a 16KWH battery pack. That means 1 KWH is good for 4.375 miles. Put another way, the 16KWH battery pack is worth the same energy as 0.625 gallons of gas (70/112). My Dodge held 94 gallons of gas. That is the equivalent of 2,406.4KWH. If that were possible in the MiEV, you could go 10,528 miles between charges. A single charge would last the average driver more than 10 months. Alternatively, you could drive from new york to san Fransisco 4 times on one charge. The electricity cost would be $264.66. Gas for my truck over the same distance would be $8,709.52 at the $4.50 that premium was today when I drove by the gas station and waved.

 

[soccerballtux]

I'm saying my research points to battery life being more a function of the total power going though the battery, and that page (along with most battery manufacturers) count in cycles and depth of discharge (DoD). Let's use the cycle counts on that page and do some quick math. Let's assume a 16KWH battery pack, which is what the MiEV has. That way, we can compare it to the car in this thread.

With a DoD of 100%, the rated cycles is 500. At 50%, it is 1500. At 25% it is 2500 and at 10% it is 4700 cycles. That sounds like a lot, right? But since the purpose of the battery is to move the car, we need to measure in something besides cycles. Propulsive effort or work is measured in KWH (kilowatt hours). The total KWH able to be put out by the battery over the life of the battery would therefore be the total KWH put into the battery, or DoD times the cycle count times the total KWH. This means a 100% DoD would put 16 KWH, and a 10% would be 1.6 KWH. No matter how far the battery is DoD'd, the car will still move the same distance per KWH expended by the motor (assuming exact same driving conditions)

So using that page, at 100% DoD, a 16KWH battery will store a total of 500 cycle * 1 DoD * 16 KWH, or 16000 total KWH. But what about the other end of the spectrum? at 10% DoD, the total will be 4700 cycle * 0.1 DoD * 16 KWH, or 15040 KWH. So at 100% DoD the car will be able to use 16000 KWH over the life of the battery or at 10%, be able to use 15040. The battery is more efficient by being 100% DoD than 10% DoD because over its life, it will be able to transfer more KWH at 100% DoD than 10%.

If the car has to move the same amount of distance over its life, then cycle count is probably not the best way to look at battery life.

Why has no one thought of this before? Everybody's always been like DON'T DISCHARGE ALL THE WAY IT'S BAD FOR IT!! Well, not really....

 

[soccerballtux]

Interesting fact: The MiEV has 112 MPG, and I am usually at 70 miles to empty with a full charge. It has a 16KWH battery pack. That means 1 KWH is good for 4.375 miles. Put another way, the 16KWH battery pack is worth the same energy as 0.625 gallons of gas (70/112). My Dodge held 94 gallons of gas. That is the equivalent of 2,406.4KWH. If that were possible in the MiEV, you could go 10,528 miles between charges. A single charge would last the average driver more than 10 months. Alternatively, you could drive from new york to san Fransisco 4 times on one charge. The electricity cost would be $264.66. Gas for my truck over the same distance would be $8,709.52 at the $4.50 that premium was today when I drove by the gas station and waved.

this thread delivers. Why can't I rate this thread?

 

[MovingTarget]

Interesting fact: The MiEV has 112 MPG, and I am usually at 70 miles to empty with a full charge. It has a 16KWH battery pack. That means 1 KWH is good for 4.375 miles. Put another way, the 16KWH battery pack is worth the same energy as 0.625 gallons of gas (70/112). My Dodge held 94 gallons of gas. That is the equivalent of 2,406.4KWH. If that were possible in the MiEV, you could go 10,528 miles between charges. A single charge would last the average driver more than 10 months. Alternatively, you could drive from new york to san Fransisco 4 times on one charge. The electricity cost would be $264.66. Gas for my truck over the same distance would be $8,709.52 at the $4.50 that premium was today when I drove by the gas station and waved.

Efficiency. Fuck yeah! :thumbsup:

 

[MovingTarget]

Evadman, have you had the opportunity to use the air conditioning or heating systems extensively yet? If so, how effective are they at keeping you comfortable? Does it affect your range too adversely?

 

[Evadman]

Evadman, have you had the opportunity to use the air conditioning or heating systems extensively yet? If so, how effective are they at keeping you comfortable? Does it affect your range too adversely?

I have used both, though not extensively. For AC, the range drops by about 10% according to the mileage estimate. I did use it once on high all the way to work, and all the way back, and I used 2 extra bars on the battery meter out of the 16. This equates to roughly 25% of the battery being used for A/C during the trip. The AC is good at being cold, on par with any other vehicle I have had.

For heating, ugh. it sucks. I would expect the heating to be resistive, so it would be instant on, or near instant. It took about 5 miles before getting warm, and about 3 more miles before I would conciser it useful. There is a heated seat, but I did not use it becuase I just thought about using it as I am typing this. For battery life, the meter instantly dropped from 77 miles for range to 44 miles. So the estimate was for the heater to use a substantial portion of the battery life. In fact, the meter in the car which measures battery charge/discharge (I thought it was only the motor, but it moved when using the heater) was at roughly the same place as it is when I am cruising at 50 MPH. but I was stopped at a light with the heater going. And it wasn't hot yet. Overall, I used twice the battery meter than normal, so I would estimate that the range is 1/2 using the heat vs not using the heat. In the winter months, I am definitely going to use the remote control for the A/C and heating so I can start it up while being plugged in.

Long story short, A/C is good, Heat sucks hard core. I have not used either of them extensively though, and only have 2 data points for A/C, and 1 data point for heat.

This weekend, I had to go for a long trip in my FJ (>1500 miles). When I pulled out of my driveway, I almost ran over the mailbox on the other side of the street. I have gotten used to the brake pedal feel on the MiEV, which is very twichy. Just taking your foot off the gas drastically slows the car due to regen braking. I had to press roughly 10 times harder on the brake on my FJ to slow down. It took me quite a while to get used to the brake on the FJ again since it is so drastically different, in pretty much all aspects, than the MiEV.

 

[vi edit]

Yeh heat was a huge concern for Nissan for the leafs. I think they were going for easy wins on theirs...heated seats and heated steering wheel. Get the exremities warm first and hope that makes people feel more comfortable without having to heat up the entire cabin through traditional forced air methods.

One thing I thought about for electric cars was a "radiant" heat method where they could somehow embed some radiant heat emmitters throughout the frame of the car that kept the car warm while plugged in and charging. Then when you took off the remaining heat still in the car would be enough to keep it comfortable during your drive.