Pic of the new Acura TL A-Spec

[Mani]

I seriously wonder if the people saying "stop jacking off to RWD" have ever even driven a RWD car for an appreciable amount of time.

 

[MustangSVT]

RX-8 for me plz aspec too!

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: Mani
I seriously wonder if the people saying "stop jacking off to RWD" have ever even driven a RWD car for an appreciable amount of time.

I drive a RWD SUV daily. Drove a RWD Ranger pickup for 4 years. Drove an S-10 w/ the fiesty 4.3L vortec for a year. And I had the pleasure of driving a Jaguar S-Type 4.2L V8 for a week as well as a Mustang (V6 unfortnuately) for a week.

In stop and go, and freeway driving I notice no significant difference between them and my V6 Passat or my GTI VR6.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: Lore
My TL handles just fine, and I've never experienced any of the oft-touted "torque steer" due to its FWD layout. If any of you visit the Temple of VTEC they did a quick underbody analysis of the TL and pointed out some engineering considerations to make sure that the TL did not experience torque steer.

Whenever I've pushed my car at those highway turns, I can apply quite a bit of gas without feeling like I'm about to spin out. While I agree that the power steering seems to be way too loose at higher speeds, I feel very comfortable with the handling.

Acura did do things to try to minimize torque steer but when I test drove a TL, I definitely felt it. Apparently, so did R&T. It's possible to tweak a FWD car to minimize torque steer but just about impossible to dial it out entirely.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Mani
I seriously wonder if the people saying "stop jacking off to RWD" have ever even driven a RWD car for an appreciable amount of time.

I drive a RWD SUV daily. Drove a RWD Ranger pickup for 4 years. Drove an S-10 w/ the fiesty 4.3L vortec for a year. And I had the pleasure of driving a Jaguar S-Type 4.2L V8 for a week as well as a Mustang (V6 unfortnuately) for a week.

In stop and go, and freeway driving I notice no significant difference between them and my V6 Passat or my GTI VR6.

Exactly.

 

[vi edit]

Acura did do things to try to minimize torque steer but when I test drove a TL, I definitely felt it. Apparently, so did R&T. It's possible to tweak a FWD car to minimize torque steer but just about impossible to dial it out entirely.

My Passat has a multilink independent front suspsension as well as a longitudinally mounted engine to virtually eliminate torque steer.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Mani
I seriously wonder if the people saying "stop jacking off to RWD" have ever even driven a RWD car for an appreciable amount of time.

I drive a RWD SUV daily. Drove a RWD Ranger pickup for 4 years. Drove an S-10 w/ the fiesty 4.3L vortec for a year. And I had the pleasure of driving a Jaguar S-Type 4.2L V8 for a week as well as a Mustang (V6 unfortnuately) for a week.

In stop and go, and freeway driving I notice no significant difference between them and my V6 Passat or my GTI VR6.

Out of those cars, the only one that might have a chance at showing the advantages of a RWD drivetrain is the S-type and that too only if compared to a comparably sized fwd car.

Though even that aside, if the only driving you do is relatively pedestrian highway and city driving, FWD is probably a better choice. The only people I'm referring to are the ones who seem to think there's no appreciable difference in the driving dynamics between fwd and rwd, or that the difference can be easily made up by suspension tuning.

 

[vi edit]

Though even that aside, if the only driving you do is relatively pedestrian highway and city driving, FWD is probably a better choice. The only people I'm referring to are the ones who seem to think there's no appreciable difference in the driving dynamics between fwd and rwd, or that the difference can be easily made up by suspension tuning.

Which is exactly what I said in my first(well second actually) post. A very, very large majority of people buying these cars will never push them to the point where the drivetrain layout will make a difference. Hell, I'd venture to guess that most Jaguars never see an RPM above 4000 because the driver behind the wheel just isn't that type of person.

That's the whole problem with magazines. They publish numbers that most drivers will ever come close to scraping. You don't buy a $32,000 luxury sedan to rev it up to 6,000 RPM's and dump the clutch. Sure, the teenage kid of the parent that bought it might give it a shot, but most drivers will never have the opportunity, or more importantly, the desire to do it.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Mani
I seriously wonder if the people saying "stop jacking off to RWD" have ever even driven a RWD car for an appreciable amount of time.

I drive a RWD SUV daily. Drove a RWD Ranger pickup for 4 years. Drove an S-10 w/ the fiesty 4.3L vortec for a year. And I had the pleasure of driving a Jaguar S-Type 4.2L V8 for a week as well as a Mustang (V6 unfortnuately) for a week.

In stop and go, and freeway driving I notice no significant difference between them and my V6 Passat or my GTI VR6.

Out of those cars, the only one that might have a chance at showing the advantages of a RWD drivetrain is the S-type and that too only if compared to a comparably sized fwd car.

Though even that aside, if the only driving you do is relatively pedestrian highway and city driving, FWD is probably a better choice. The only people I'm referring to are the ones who seem to think there's no appreciable difference in the driving dynamics between fwd and rwd, or that the difference can be easily made up by suspension tuning.

I'm not denying the advantages of RWD over FWD when it comes to racing... but a lot of people who buy the TL will probably never take it to a track day... logging a lot of freeway miles...there are people here who say RWD is the end all be all dont even know squat about driving dynamics and only go by what the bandwagon says. track days are full of guys like that with their fancy IS300s, M3s or whatever RWD sportscar yet theyre one the bottom of the timed laps.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: bR

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Mani
I seriously wonder if the people saying "stop jacking off to RWD" have ever even driven a RWD car for an appreciable amount of time.

I drive a RWD SUV daily. Drove a RWD Ranger pickup for 4 years. Drove an S-10 w/ the fiesty 4.3L vortec for a year. And I had the pleasure of driving a Jaguar S-Type 4.2L V8 for a week as well as a Mustang (V6 unfortnuately) for a week.

In stop and go, and freeway driving I notice no significant difference between them and my V6 Passat or my GTI VR6.

Out of those cars, the only one that might have a chance at showing the advantages of a RWD drivetrain is the S-type and that too only if compared to a comparably sized fwd car.

Though even that aside, if the only driving you do is relatively pedestrian highway and city driving, FWD is probably a better choice. The only people I'm referring to are the ones who seem to think there's no appreciable difference in the driving dynamics between fwd and rwd, or that the difference can be easily made up by suspension tuning.

I'm not denying the advantages of RWD over FWD when it comes to racing... but a lot of people who buy the TL will probably never take it to a track day... logging a lot of freeway miles...there are people here who say RWD is the end all be all dont even know squat about driving dynamics and only go by what the bandwagon says. track days are full of guys like that with their fancy IS300s, M3s or whatever RWD sportscar yet theyre one the bottom of the timed laps.

If you don't care about performance, why would you bother with the A Spec package?

 

[vi edit]

If you don't care about performance, why would you bother with the A Spec package?

It's a $5000 cosmetics package for the most part. As for why people buy it? There's just a significant portion of people that just walk into a dealer and say - "Gimme the works!"

Hell, the owner of a my company bought a $110,00 Carrera 4S. He hasn't ever taken it above 80MPH. And he's had it for 6 months. Explain that to me.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Mani
I seriously wonder if the people saying "stop jacking off to RWD" have ever even driven a RWD car for an appreciable amount of time.

I have abusively driven many RWD cars, some probably more expensive than what you drive. One of my old daily drivers was a volvo 740 turbo. So what about you? How many tuned FWD cars have you daily/abusively driven?

 

[jurzdevil]

thats the ugliest car i have ever seen

 

[spidey07]

OK!

enough of the FWD/RWD bickering

I own a 2004 TL manual. Awesome car inside and out.

I am also a driver...one who likes to feel the car and push it to the edge.

the torque steer in the car is a fckin' nightmare. I'd give anything for it to be RWD because then it would be perfect.

But its not. And I'll take the good with the bad.

In all seriousness anybody who brags about FWD really doesn't know how to drive. I mean drive as in feeling the car, balancing the weight, using the throttle to steer, etc.

Just MHO. I love everything the car has to offer. If it was RWD nothing on this planet could touch it in price/performance range.

<---ownd M3s, cobras, preludes, etc.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: spidey07
OK!

enough of the FWD/RWD bickering

I own a 2004 TL manual. Awesome car inside and out.

I am also a driver...one who likes to feel the car and push it to the edge.

the torque steer in the car is a fckin' nightmare. I'd give anything for it to be RWD because then it would be perfect.

But its not. And I'll take the good with the bad.

In all seriousness anybody who brags about FWD really doesn't know how to drive. I mean drive as in feeling the car, balancing the weight, using the throttle to steer, etc.

Just MHO. I love everything the car has to offer. If it was RWD nothing on this planet could touch it in price/performance range.

<---ownd M3s, cobras, preludes, etc.

Which has nothing to do with daily commuting or freeway driving like what Ive been saying.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: bR

Originally posted by: spidey07
OK!

enough of the FWD/RWD bickering

I own a 2004 TL manual. Awesome car inside and out.

I am also a driver...one who likes to feel the car and push it to the edge.

the torque steer in the car is a fckin' nightmare. I'd give anything for it to be RWD because then it would be perfect.

But its not. And I'll take the good with the bad.

In all seriousness anybody who brags about FWD really doesn't know how to drive. I mean drive as in feeling the car, balancing the weight, using the throttle to steer, etc.

Just MHO. I love everything the car has to offer. If it was RWD nothing on this planet could touch it in price/performance range.

<---ownd M3s, cobras, preludes, etc.

Which has nothing to do with daily commuting or freeway driving like what Ive been saying.

Well I do have exit ramps I need to hit. And I like them at 90+, just coming out of third.

 

[Balthazar]

biggest.
waste.
of money.
EVER.

Seriously they should call it the TL M-Spec.

(The "M" stands for "molested by the dealer")

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Mani
I seriously wonder if the people saying "stop jacking off to RWD" have ever even driven a RWD car for an appreciable amount of time.

I have abusively driven many RWD cars, some probably more expensive than what you drive. One of my old daily drivers was a volvo 740 turbo. So what about you? How many tuned FWD cars have you daily/abusively driven?

I currently drive a G35 coupe. I regularly also drive a BMW 330i ZHP and a Porsche Boxster.

FWD cars I have owned (Not counting the '91 minivan or my dad's Buick I drove for first couple years of driving): High school and some of college - a 1992 Acura Integra GS-R. Through the rest of college I drove my roommate's Countour SVT - supposedly one of the best-handling FWD cars in production - on a daily basis through 1.5 years of school. Had a BAT European Handling kit installed along with 17" rims and sticky tires that may as well have been slicks because he had to replace the fronts every few thousand miles. And I abused the living hell out of that car. There's no doubt, it was a fun grippy car and it may with those mods match the skidpad numbers of one but it wouldn't touch the predictability, balance, or feel of a decent RWD car.

I suppose if a Volvo 740 is your reference, that would explain why you don't think much of RWD.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: spidey07
OK!

enough of the FWD/RWD bickering

I own a 2004 TL manual. Awesome car inside and out.

I am also a driver...one who likes to feel the car and push it to the edge.

the torque steer in the car is a fckin' nightmare. I'd give anything for it to be RWD because then it would be perfect.

But its not. And I'll take the good with the bad.

In all seriousness anybody who brags about FWD really doesn't know how to drive. I mean drive as in feeling the car, balancing the weight, using the throttle to steer, etc.

Just MHO. I love everything the car has to offer. If it was RWD nothing on this planet could touch it in price/performance range.

<---ownd M3s, cobras, preludes, etc.

Well said. A lot of FWD folks have managed to convince themselves that there is no meaningful difference between the driving dynamics of a FWD and RWD car. Anyone who has pushed cars to their limits knows how completely untrue that is.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: spidey07
OK!

enough of the FWD/RWD bickering

I own a 2004 TL manual. Awesome car inside and out.

I am also a driver...one who likes to feel the car and push it to the edge.

the torque steer in the car is a fckin' nightmare. I'd give anything for it to be RWD because then it would be perfect.

But its not. And I'll take the good with the bad.

In all seriousness anybody who brags about FWD really doesn't know how to drive. I mean drive as in feeling the car, balancing the weight, using the throttle to steer, etc.

Just MHO. I love everything the car has to offer. If it was RWD nothing on this planet could touch it in price/performance range.

<---ownd M3s, cobras, preludes, etc.

Well said. A lot of FWD folks have managed to convince themselves that there is no meaningful difference between the driving dynamics of a FWD and RWD car. Anyone who has pushed cars to their limits knows how completely untrue that is.

Where are the FWD folks? I've never said that there was no meaningful difference, but whether the majority of people will notice those differences is my point.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: spidey07
OK!

enough of the FWD/RWD bickering

I own a 2004 TL manual. Awesome car inside and out.

I am also a driver...one who likes to feel the car and push it to the edge.

the torque steer in the car is a fckin' nightmare. I'd give anything for it to be RWD because then it would be perfect.

But its not. And I'll take the good with the bad.

In all seriousness anybody who brags about FWD really doesn't know how to drive. I mean drive as in feeling the car, balancing the weight, using the throttle to steer, etc.

Just MHO. I love everything the car has to offer. If it was RWD nothing on this planet could touch it in price/performance range.

<---ownd M3s, cobras, preludes, etc.

Well said. A lot of FWD folks have managed to convince themselves that there is no meaningful difference between the driving dynamics of a FWD and RWD car. Anyone who has pushed cars to their limits knows how completely untrue that is.

Where are the FWD folks? I've never said that there was no meaningful difference, but whether the majority of people will notice those differences is my point.

Id like to know too.

 

[MoobyTheGoldenCalf]

OK, FWD vs. RWD had got to be the dumbest argument ever. You know what folks, BOTH ARE GOOD BUT IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND IN DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES.

I own an 04 TL. In the past I have owned a RWD Mustang and RWD V8 Cougar to name a few. I can tell you that after about 20 near-death experiences, I am NEVER driving a RWD car again. Why? Because RWD sucks? NO, because I live in Chicago and we get snow here. RWD sucks in snow. Period. I don't care what kind of traction control/stability control/bs control you have, FWD beats RWD in snow EVERY TIME. Now, if I lived in New Mexico, and was looking for a track racer it would be a completely different story. I'd probably be checking out some RWD models. But my TL is never going to see a race track, sorry.

With that being said, I shopped the TL vs the G35. And even if I lived in a totally snow-free warm climate, I still would have picked the TL. IMO, it beats the G35 in almost every category.

I would also say that the torque steer in the TL is in NO WAY as bad as some people or (C&D) make it out to be. A nitemare?

Puleeeze, try driving a new maxima. And trust me I'm not granny driver either, I'm up there at 90-100 on the highway most of the time. But you know what, you learn to expect it and deal with it when it happens. Believe me, I'll take a little bit of torque steer vs. taking a snow-covered freeway exit ramp at 50mph in a mustang any day....

And just to get back on topic

Personally, I think the A-Spec for the 04 is ugly and a complete waste of $$$.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: bR

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: spidey07
OK!

enough of the FWD/RWD bickering

I own a 2004 TL manual. Awesome car inside and out.

I am also a driver...one who likes to feel the car and push it to the edge.

the torque steer in the car is a fckin' nightmare. I'd give anything for it to be RWD because then it would be perfect.

But its not. And I'll take the good with the bad.

In all seriousness anybody who brags about FWD really doesn't know how to drive. I mean drive as in feeling the car, balancing the weight, using the throttle to steer, etc.

Just MHO. I love everything the car has to offer. If it was RWD nothing on this planet could touch it in price/performance range.

<---ownd M3s, cobras, preludes, etc.

Well said. A lot of FWD folks have managed to convince themselves that there is no meaningful difference between the driving dynamics of a FWD and RWD car. Anyone who has pushed cars to their limits knows how completely untrue that is.

Where are the FWD folks? I've never said that there was no meaningful difference, but whether the majority of people will notice those differences is my point.

Id like to know too.

None here have come right out and said it, but I've seen enough FWD/RWD debates to know that there are plenty of them around.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: MoobyTheGoldenCalf
OK, FWD vs. RWD had got to be the dumbest argument ever. You know what folks, BOTH ARE GOOD BUT IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND IN DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES.

Thanks for the update capt. obvious. I don't think anyone has ever disputed that. The debate is the extent to which drivetrain affects handling.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: bR

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: spidey07
OK!

enough of the FWD/RWD bickering

I own a 2004 TL manual. Awesome car inside and out.

I am also a driver...one who likes to feel the car and push it to the edge.

the torque steer in the car is a fckin' nightmare. I'd give anything for it to be RWD because then it would be perfect.

But its not. And I'll take the good with the bad.

In all seriousness anybody who brags about FWD really doesn't know how to drive. I mean drive as in feeling the car, balancing the weight, using the throttle to steer, etc.

Just MHO. I love everything the car has to offer. If it was RWD nothing on this planet could touch it in price/performance range.

<---ownd M3s, cobras, preludes, etc.

Well said. A lot of FWD folks have managed to convince themselves that there is no meaningful difference between the driving dynamics of a FWD and RWD car. Anyone who has pushed cars to their limits knows how completely untrue that is.

Where are the FWD folks? I've never said that there was no meaningful difference, but whether the majority of people will notice those differences is my point.

Id like to know too.

None here have come right out and said it, but I've seen enough FWD/RWD debates to know that there are plenty of them around.

Well I would put those guys with the people who claim theyre faster because they have RWD yet dont know how to drive for sh*t. FWD has done ok in touring car races... the TSX and Mazda Protege were 2 and 4 in the Speed Touring Cup last week IIRC... while a BMW 3 was 1 and 3... a FWD Alfa Romeo was champion in the ETCC over BMWs last year. They get respectable performance despite having the wrong wheels driven ... but if i had a choice then RWD no doubt in a racing environment.