Physics/aerodynamics/fluid dynamics experts needed

[flxnimprtmscl]

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground. He says it's not possible. I've actually seen it happen (or seen a shot that I have no other explanation for) and say it is.

I'm thinking that topspin (ball is rotating forward) that Bernoulli's principle would apply and the ball would be forced downward. However, the initial velocity imparted on the ball would be enough to counteract that for a while until the ball slowed enough for the higher pressure air on the top of the ball to become the dominant force and force the ball sharply downward. Am I in the ballpark on this or am I way off?

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl
So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground. He says it's not possible. I've actually seen it happen (or seen a shot that I have no other explanation for) and say it is.

I'm thinking that topspin (ball is rotating forward) that Bernoulli's principle would apply and the ball would be forced downward. However, the initial velocity imparted on the ball would be enough to counteract that for a while until the ball slowed enough for the higher pressure air on the top of the ball to become the dominant force and force the ball sharply downward. Am I in the ballpark on this or am I way off?

driver, 9 degree angle, you make impact directly behind the ball, with a slightly upward motion on the ball forcing a top spin. the angle of the club itself will drive the ball up with a topspin on it. it will of course drop much more quickly than a ball with little spin or a slight back spin on it of course.

i don't have scientific proof, other than observation. i've hit such a ball, many a times.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

I don't think it's possible to actually hit a driver with topspin. Perhaps it's possible in theory, but the AOA forced by the tee and the ground makes it impossible in the real world. But yes, the ball would certainly fly. It's easily possible to impart topspin on a tennis ball, ping-pong ball, a pitched baseball and most other spheres. They'll all fly a certain distance due to momentum before nosediving. How far they fly depends on initial velocity, mass, drag, spin, launch angle, etc, but they will fly to one extent or another.

 

[Fern]

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

So, he's wrong, yes you can hit a driver (or most clubs for that matter) with topspin.

Fern

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
I don't think it's possible to actually hit a driver with topspin. Perhaps it's possible in theory, but the AOA forced by the tee and the ground makes it impossible in the real world. But yes, the ball would certainly fly. It's easily possible to impart topspin on a tennis ball, ping-pong ball, a pitched baseball and most other spheres. They'll all fly a certain distance due to momentum before nosediving.

if it's a standard swing with a standard stance, yes, aoa would come into play.

when i've hit it with topspin, i had moved the ball a little closer to center of stance, to lower the trajectory (windy day) and i hit the ball slightly above the middle of the ball. enough force and trajectory to get the ball airborne, but it dropped very very quickly and rolled for quite a bit on the fairway.

 

[flxnimprtmscl]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Perhaps it's possible in theory, but the AOA forced by the tee and the ground makes it impossible in the real world.

Can you be a little more specific as to what you mean by this.

Thanks

 

[CycloWizard]

Of course it's possible. Spin changes the trajectory but not the initial angle. Look for free kick goals in soccer for analagous examples. Also look up the Magnus Effect to give him a bit of information on why spin causes the ball to have a different trajectory.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Pure ignorance. Despite old wives tales passed around by idiots a draw does not have topspin. Draws and fades are caused by side spin, not topspin or backspin.

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

when i've hit it with topspin, i had moved the ball a little closer to center of stance, to lower the trajectory (windy day) and i hit the ball slightly above the middle of the ball.

That's just a POS shot. Topping a ball and hitting a grounder is one thing, but nobody on earth can impart topspin on a golf ball without mishitting it. I've seen thousands of balls struck on launch monitors and not a single one had topspin unless it was hacked with a garbage swing and bad contact.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Pure ignorance. Despite old wives tales passed around by idiots a draw does not have topspin. Draws and fades are caused by side spin, not topspin or backspin.

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

when i've hit it with topspin, i had moved the ball a little closer to center of stance, to lower the trajectory (windy day) and i hit the ball slightly above the middle of the ball.

That's just a POS shot. Topping a ball and hitting a grounder is one thing, but nobody on earth can impart topspin on a golf ball without mishitting it. I've seen thousands of balls struck on launch monitors and not a single one had topspin unless it was hacked with a garbage swing and bad contact.

and the claim was never made that it was a good shot.

the question was asked, IS IT POSSIBLE, and the answer was given, yes it is, i've done it.

not sure why you have such a problem with it.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Perhaps it's possible in theory, but the AOA forced by the tee and the ground makes it impossible in the real world.

Can you be a little more specific as to what you mean by this.

Thanks

Yes. Look at a tennis or ping-pong player impart topspin. It's done with a severe low to high angle of attack on the ball, an upward glancing blow that makes the ball rotate forward. A golf ball can only be teed up a few inches. With the ground limiting the possible upward angle of attack it's not possible to approach the ball from a low enough position or with a severe enough upward angle to impart topspin on it.

 

[flxnimprtmscl]

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

So, he's wrong, yes you can hit a driver (or most clubs for that matter) with topspin.

Fern

That's not a draw or a fade and it's not what I'm talking about either.

 

[ManyBeers]

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

So, he's wrong, yes you can hit a driver (or most clubs for that matter) with topspin.

Fern

Sorry Fern but even a properly struck "draw" has backspin. If it did not the ball would not get airborne. The draw is caused by sidespin in addition to the backspin. A straight golf shot(though rare) has just backspin.

 

[ManyBeers]

I imagine everone here has seen those golf balls with those half moon shaped 1/8 inch deep "smiles"on them. Those are balls struck with topspin.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Pure ignorance. Despite old wives tales passed around by idiots a draw does not have topspin. Draws and fades are caused by side spin, not topspin or backspin.

If you google, you'll find it confirmed.

At the end of the ball's flight the topspin developes even if it starts out as somewhat of a topspin/sidespin combo (it ain't pure side-spin at the start anyway).

Pure side spin is nearly impossible to achieve, a very poor golfer who is right handed may come close to putting a pure right-side spin on a ball (a horrible banna-slice). But a right-handed golfer could never put a pure left-spin on a ball. The top-spin/left spin is achieved when the clubhead is fuly released through the contact zone with the golf ball - the club head *turns over* and you'll get more top than left spin.

Fern

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: ManyBeers
I imagine everone here has seen those golf balls with those half moon shaped 1/8 inch deep "smiles"on them. Those are balls struck with topspin.

Nope, that's when you cut the ball on your swing striking downward.

Now can a golfball have top spin? I'd say so because I've done it and it's always with a driver or 3 wood. The ball gets airborne a good amount, maybe 20 feet but dives strongly toward the ground. From the flight of it plummeting to the ground much faster than just gravity alone makes me think there was topspin.

 

[DrPizza]

I suck at golf. I've hit many many balls with my driver that have a ton of top spin. Then never get more than 10 feet off the ground, and rarely make it more than 30 or 40 yards except on lucky bounces. I like lucky bounces.
I can hit a 3 iron like mad - blast it as hard as I can possibly swing the club & hit it straight as an arrow. (I won longest drive a couple of times in a weekly league I was in, using my 3 iron)
But, for some reason, I absolutely suck at hitting the ball with a driver.

 

[Mr Pickles]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Pure ignorance. Despite old wives tales passed around by idiots a draw does not have topspin. Draws and fades are caused by side spin, not topspin or backspin.

If you google, you'll find it confirmed.

At the end of the ball's flight the topspin developes even if it starts out as somewhat of a topspin/sidespin combo (it ain't pure side-spin at the start anyway).

Pure side spin is nearly impossible to achieve, a very poor golfer who is right handed may come close to putting a pure right-side spin on a ball (a horrible banna-slice). But a right-handed golfer could never put a pure left-spin on a ball. The top-spin/left spin is achieved when the clubhead is fuly released through the contact zone with the golf ball - the club head *turns over* and you'll get more top than left spin.

Fern

Not pure left or right, but there will definitely some spin left and right. Think about other balls that are thrown. A curve ball or slider will go left or right, not becuase of top spin or back spin, but because there is a flick of the wrist to the left or right that makes the ball go left or right. It doesn't take much.

A fade by a right hander is made because the golfer did not fully roll his wrists over so the club head lines up correctly with ball and the intended line of shot. Instead the ball is hit with the club face at an angle or "open" club face. This, along with the forward momentum transfered to the ball from the club, causes the dimples to catch air, which leads to friction with the air, which leads to a clockwise spinning, which leads to fade, which leads to club wrapped around a fucking pole I fucking hate when it fades I fucking set up so that I'm way left of the damn fairway but somehow this shit always happens to me and I'm trekking through the fucking woods LOOKING FOR A DAMN WHITE BALL THAT'S OB ANYWAY AND I HAVE 10 IN BAG ANYWAY SO FUCK IT! FUCK IT! WHERE'S THE SWEET LITTLE PIECE OF ASS THEY CALL THE CART LADY WITH MY JACK AND COKE!??!

Draw? I can't do it, but yeah, its when you roll your wrists to much or come down on the ball with a hack motion from the other side of the ball in towards you. Definitely top spin, the spin when it hits the green confirms that, and its definitely counter-clockwise spin... doesnt need to be much though.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Mr Pickles
A fade by a right hander is made because the golfer did not fully roll his wrists over so the club head lines up correctly with ball and the intended line of shot. Instead the ball is hit with the club face at an angle or "open" club face. This, along with the forward momentum transfered to the ball from the club, causes the dimples to catch air, which leads to friction with the air, which leads to a clockwise spinning, which leads to fade, which leads to club wrapped around a fucking pole I fucking hate when it fades I fucking set up so that I'm way left of the damn fairway but somehow this shit always happens to me and I'm trekking through the fucking woods LOOKING FOR A DAMN WHITE BALL THAT'S OB ANYWAY AND I HAVE 10 IN BAG ANYWAY SO FUCK IT! FUCK IT! WHERE'S THE SWEET LITTLE PIECE OF ASS THEY CALL THE CART LADY WITH MY JACK AND COKE!??!

ha ha ha, sounds like my golf game.

 

[ManyBeers]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: ManyBeers
I imagine everone here has seen those golf balls with those half moon shaped 1/8 inch deep "smiles"on them. Those are balls struck with topspin.

Nope, that's when you cut the ball on your swing striking downward.

Now can a golfball have top spin? I'd say so because I've done it and it's always with a driver or 3 wood. The ball gets airborne a good amount, maybe 20 feet but dives strongly toward the ground. From the flight of it plummeting to the ground much faster than just gravity alone makes me think there was topspin.

I was being facetious. No proper golf swing would ever produce topspin. And a level "thin" shot striking the ball with the sole of the clubs leading edge will "smile" any number of balata balls.

 

[ManyBeers]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Pure ignorance. Despite old wives tales passed around by idiots a draw does not have topspin. Draws and fades are caused by side spin, not topspin or backspin.

If you google, you'll find it confirmed.

At the end of the ball's flight the topspin developes even if it starts out as somewhat of a topspin/sidespin combo (it ain't pure side-spin at the start anyway).

Pure side spin is nearly impossible to achieve, a very poor golfer who is right handed may come close to putting a pure right-side spin on a ball (a horrible banna-slice). But a right-handed golfer could never put a pure left-spin on a ball. The top-spin/left spin is achieved when the clubhead is fuly released through the contact zone with the golf ball - the club head *turns over* and you'll get more top than left spin.

Fern

Read this All golf shots that achieve flight when struck by a golf club have backspin. None have topspin. In fact wedges generate app. 10,000 rpms or more of backspin.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Pure ignorance. Despite old wives tales passed around by idiots a draw does not have topspin. Draws and fades are caused by side spin, not topspin or backspin.

If you google, you'll find it confirmed.

At the end of the ball's flight the topspin developes even if it starts out as somewhat of a topspin/sidespin combo (it ain't pure side-spin at the start anyway).

Pure side spin is nearly impossible to achieve, a very poor golfer who is right handed may come close to putting a pure right-side spin on a ball (a horrible banna-slice). But a right-handed golfer could never put a pure left-spin on a ball. The top-spin/left spin is achieved when the clubhead is fuly released through the contact zone with the golf ball - the club head *turns over* and you'll get more top than left spin.

Fern

Please go out and buy a clue. You said something unbelievably stupid and now you're just getting more and more insane to try to cover it. NO golf shots have top spin. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Can't be done. Period.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: ManyBeers

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Pure ignorance. Despite old wives tales passed around by idiots a draw does not have topspin. Draws and fades are caused by side spin, not topspin or backspin.

If you google, you'll find it confirmed.

At the end of the ball's flight the topspin developes even if it starts out as somewhat of a topspin/sidespin combo (it ain't pure side-spin at the start anyway).

Pure side spin is nearly impossible to achieve, a very poor golfer who is right handed may come close to putting a pure right-side spin on a ball (a horrible banna-slice). But a right-handed golfer could never put a pure left-spin on a ball. The top-spin/left spin is achieved when the clubhead is fuly released through the contact zone with the golf ball - the club head *turns over* and you'll get more top than left spin.

Fern

Read this All golf shots that achieve flight when struck by a golf club have backspin. None have topspin. In fact wedges generate app. 10,000 rpms or more of backspin.

And, when it barely gets off the ground and goes 20 yards before spiking back into the ground, that's not "achieving flight", because there's too much topspin.

 

[ManyBeers]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: ManyBeers

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Fern

So I'm having a discussion with a member of another forum about whether or not it's possible to hit a golf ball off a driver, hit it with topspin, and have it even get off the ground.

^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Pure ignorance. Despite old wives tales passed around by idiots a draw does not have topspin. Draws and fades are caused by side spin, not topspin or backspin.

If you google, you'll find it confirmed.

At the end of the ball's flight the topspin developes even if it starts out as somewhat of a topspin/sidespin combo (it ain't pure side-spin at the start anyway).

Pure side spin is nearly impossible to achieve, a very poor golfer who is right handed may come close to putting a pure right-side spin on a ball (a horrible banna-slice). But a right-handed golfer could never put a pure left-spin on a ball. The top-spin/left spin is achieved when the clubhead is fuly released through the contact zone with the golf ball - the club head *turns over* and you'll get more top than left spin.

Fern

Read this All golf shots that achieve flight when struck by a golf club have backspin. None have topspin. In fact wedges generate app. 10,000 rpms or more of backspin.

And, when it barely gets off the ground and goes 20 yards before spiking back into the ground, that's not "achieving flight", because there's too much topspin.

Try getting an iron airborne from turf with topspin. Good luck.

This quote of Ferns "^ It's called a *draw* The opposite (backspin) is called a *fade*
o, he's wrong, yes you can hit a driver (or most clubs for that matter) with topspin" is primarily what i am addressing my posts to. A draw is not topspin and a fade is not backspin. In golf for a right-hander: a draw is right to left(counter-clockwise) side spin, a fade is left to right(clockwise) side spin.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Mr Pickles

Not pure left or right, but there will definitely some spin left and right. Think about other balls that are thrown. A curve ball or slider will go left or right, not becuase of top spin or back spin, but because there is a flick of the wrist to the left or right that makes the ball go left or right. It doesn't take much.

A fade by a right hander is made because the golfer did not fully roll his wrists over so the club head lines up correctly with ball and the intended line of shot. Instead the ball is hit with the club face at an angle or "open" club face. This, along with the forward momentum transfered to the ball from the club, causes the dimples to catch air, which leads to friction with the air, which leads to a clockwise spinning, which leads to fade, which leads to club wrapped around a fucking pole I fucking hate when it fades I fucking set up so that I'm way left of the damn fairway but somehow this shit always happens to me and I'm trekking through the fucking woods LOOKING FOR A DAMN WHITE BALL THAT'S OB ANYWAY AND I HAVE 10 IN BAG ANYWAY SO FUCK IT! FUCK IT! WHERE'S THE SWEET LITTLE PIECE OF ASS THEY CALL THE CART LADY WITH MY JACK AND COKE!??!

Draw? I can't do it, but yeah, its when you roll your wrists to much or come down on the ball with a hack motion from the other side of the ball in towards you. Definitely top spin, the spin when it hits the green confirms that, and its definitely counter-clockwise spin... doesnt need to be much though.

not quite accurate. if you hit the ball outside in, you are more likely to hit a fade. i hit a nice draw when i catch the ball on the inside of the ball and sweep out. my best shots all have a slight right to left draw on them.

the reason you can't draw the ball, in all likelihood is, you are trying to hit the ball too hard. if you cock the wrist, allow your shoulders to do the work and release the wrist just before impact, you can have a nice in to out motion that will create a nice right to left draw shot.

 

[silverpig]

It absolutely, positively is possible to hit a golf ball with top spin. I'll also wager anyone who wants to take me up on it that oh, 10-20% of all golf shots have top spin.


edit: I'll modify my claim and say that achieving flight is extremely rare, but the top spin at that frequency is still valid.