Phoenix Suns to wear 'Los Suns' jerseys to protest Arizona's immigration law.

[CrackRabbit]

Which states would those be?

I assume AZ has, or will need, a list of which states' drivers licences qualify as proof. Do we know that list? Or will they be accepting all DL's as proof?

Fern

From http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410

Driver License or instruction permit issued by another state, territory, or possesion of the US, except per Arizona law the following states that do not verify lawful presense in the US: HI, IL, NM, UT, and WA.

That list is for qualifying to get a DL IN Arizona, meaning people in from the states listed in the quote do not verify citizenship before granting a DL.
Not that a DL means much anyways, in most circumstances it does not qualify as a citizenship document. Beyond that I'm fairly sure there are plenty of ways to cheat the system and get a DL without being a citizen or legal immigrant.
I'm willing to bet most people if questioned couldn't prove citizenship beyond a DL on the spot.


To the other poster asking me if I agree with DUI checkpoints.
I personally do not agree with them, but I am fairly certain they have been challenged and upheld by the courts. *shrug*

 

[blackangst1]

Since when do we turn to victims of an unjust law to vote on whether we should have that law? Freedom and fairness and consistency with our existing laws are what matters.

The only victims here are citizens affected by illegals. They knowingly entered a sovereign country illegally. Tough shit.

I knew a Japanese kid whose parents were in an internment camp, and he didn't think it was all that bad of a thing. So what? That's not how we make these kinds of decisions.

Anecdotal, but he's an idiot. Your point? Illegals dont hurt whitey. They hurt ANYONE. Including hispanics.

I can explicitly say a lot of things that are logically inconsistent. It's pretty simple to deduce how this law will work in the real world.

Funny we havent seen such atrocities on the federal level isnt it? Are there cases here and there? Of course. But certainly not epidemic. Maybe you point to statutes in the law that support your (fasle) assumptions. But, then again, we all have opinions

Didn't know that, and I'm not sure why it's relevant. People who look Asian shouldn't be targeted either.

Its relevant because it affects them as well. This law isnt targetting any race, as you are falsly asserting.

I don't listen to any news. I read a bit here and there. Most "news" is garbage.


I'm not going to go scour the forum before posting an opinion. I have other things to do.

Then I'll take your opinions as off the cuff and uninformed. Because they are.

 

[Fern]

-snip-

You continue operating under the assumption this law approves of 'targeting' people based on skin color etc.

1. Even if AZ wanted to do this, they can't because that's clearly unconstitutional.

2. The AZ law is a copy of the already existing federal law, AZ has simply adopted federal law. Obviously federal law doesn't allow what you claim.

3. AZ has gone to extra lengths detailing how the profiling you complain about is strictly forbidden.

I don't see how it can be any clearer.

Fern

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

You continue operating under the assumption this law approves of 'targeting' people based on skin color etc.

1. Even if AZ wanted to do this, they can't because that's clearly unconstitutional.

2. The AZ law is a copy of the already existing federal law, AZ has simply adopted federal law. Obviously federal law doesn't allow what you claim.

3. AZ has gone to extra lengths detailing how the profiling you complain about is strictly forbidden.

I don't see how it can be any clearer.

Fern

That is by far the clearest explanation I've seen anywhere (assuming it is correct). I will now cease to give a shit about this law.

 

[CrackRabbit]

You continue operating under the assumption this law approves of 'targeting' people based on skin color etc.

1. Even if AZ wanted to do this, they can't because that's clearly unconstitutional.

2. The AZ law is a copy of the already existing federal law, AZ has simply adopted federal law. Obviously federal law doesn't allow what you claim.

3. AZ has gone to extra lengths detailing how the profiling you complain about is strictly forbidden.

I don't see how it can be any clearer.

Fern

Could that be why the Maricopa County Sherifs Dept is under federal investigation for civil rights violations and has several civil lawsuits filed against it?
I mean it is completely against federal and state laws to racially profile right?
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/03/11/20090311investigation0311.html

One Civil Lawsuit below, it is an ALCU link so if you don't want some commie website in your browser history I'm sorry.
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/ortega-melendres-et-al-v-arpaio-et-al-first-amended-complaint

Oh and bob, fuck you.

 

[Fern]

Could that be why the Maricopa County Sherifs Dept is under federal investigation for civil rights violations and has several civil lawsuits filed against it?
I mean it is completely against federal and state laws to racially profile right?
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/03/11/20090311investigation0311.html

One Civil Lawsuit below, it is an ALCU link so if you don't want some commie website in your browser history I'm sorry.
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/ortega-melendres-et-al-v-arpaio-et-al-first-amended-complaint

Oh and bob, fuck you.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

For one thing, these complaints have nothing to do with this new AZ law. It isn't in effect yet etc.

For another, these are allegations, maybe true maybe not. That hasn't been determined yet.

Again, for another thing these lawsuits/investigations demonstrate that the system is working. Police operating outside the law, or claims about such, generate DoJ investigations and lawsuits. What's new or different about that?

Since the new AZ law specifically makes clear profiling is a "no-no, and lays out when police can pursue the question of legitimate presence, it could be reasonably claimed that the new law enhances rights, not tramples them.

The Left made many claims about a "FUD" program regarding the HC bill, yet here we have a FUD campaign of stagering proportions. Likewise when Obama is accussed of 'planning to take some action' those on the Left call foul because it hasn't actually happened yet; we'll can't we ask to see systemic examples of abuse before getting all up in arms over it? I think that reasonable given the specific prohibitions of such written clearly into the law.

Fern

 

[blackangst1]

Could that be why the Maricopa County Sherifs Dept is under federal investigation for civil rights violations and has several civil lawsuits filed against it?
I mean it is completely against federal and state laws to racially profile right?
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/03/11/20090311investigation0311.html

One Civil Lawsuit below, it is an ALCU link so if you don't want some commie website in your browser history I'm sorry.
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/ortega-melendres-et-al-v-arpaio-et-al-first-amended-complaint

Oh and bob, fuck you.

Perhaps you didnt know that Maricopa county, and Sheriff Joe, have had over 2100 lawsuits filed against them in the last 4 years. You know how many have actually stuck?

Wait for it....

ZERO.

 

[Budmantom]

Hey asshole, I didn't attack you so back the fuck off...

Not only are you uneducated & uninformed about the immigration law but now you've resorted to using profanity.

Don't let the facts get in the way of your opposition to this law.

 

[bob4432]

Could that be why the Maricopa County Sherifs Dept is under federal investigation for civil rights violations and has several civil lawsuits filed against it?
I mean it is completely against federal and state laws to racially profile right?
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/03/11/20090311investigation0311.html

One Civil Lawsuit below, it is an ALCU link so if you don't want some commie website in your browser history I'm sorry.
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/ortega-melendres-et-al-v-arpaio-et-al-first-amended-complaint

Oh and bob, fuck you.

is that all you got bitch? prove your point --- oh yeah, you can't... is your reading comprehension so low you can't understand the law we are discussing? or do you choose not to understand the law as written but would rather listen to those who have their racist agenda turn it into that? i believe demogragphics of the sate of AZ is ~30% latino, many leo are latino and many are for it. AZ is far from a white state but you can't see that because you just listen to what people like sharpton say - think for yourself.

 

[CrackRabbit]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

For one thing, these complaints have nothing to do with this new AZ law. It isn't in effect yet etc.

For another, these are allegations, maybe true maybe not. That hasn't been determined yet.

Again, for another thing these lawsuits/investigations demonstrate that the system is working. Police operating outside the law, or claims about such, generate DoJ investigations and lawsuits. What's new or different about that?

Since the new AZ law specifically makes clear profiling is a "no-no, and lays out when police can pursue the question of legitimate presence, it could be reasonably claimed that the new law enhances rights, not tramples them.

The Left made many claims about a "FUD" program regarding the HC bill, yet here we have a FUD campaign of stagering proportions. Likewise when Obama is accussed of 'planning to take some action' those on the Left call foul because it hasn't actually happened yet; we'll can't we ask to see systemic examples of abuse before getting all up in arms over it? I think that reasonable given the specific prohibitions of such written clearly into the law.

Fern

The point I'm trying to make is that the allegations of racial profiling and abuse of immigration laws were happening before the new law was even written.
I would say the ALCU suit against the MCSD shows that there is already systemic abuse happening (at least in Maricopa County).

I feel that most of the FUD is coming from the people that say that the law is written to prevent abuse, and then completely ignore the abuse that is already taking place.

 

[CrackRabbit]

is that all you got bitch? prove your point --- oh yeah, you can't... is your reading comprehension so low you can't understand the law we are discussing? or do you choose not to understand the law as written but would rather listen to those who have their racist agenda turn it into that? i believe demogragphics of the sate of AZ is ~30% latino, many leo are latino and many are for it. AZ is far from a white state but you can't see that because you just listen to what people like sharpton say - think for yourself.

BTW I read the law, I also read the news. Law Enforcement abuse of racial profiling was going on LONG before the law was written.

Edit: I find the quote in your sig amusing. You seem very willing to give up freedom in the name of safety.

 

[blackangst1]

The point I'm trying to make is that the allegations of racial profiling and abuse of immigration laws were happening before the new law was even written.
I would say the ALCU suit against the MCSD shows that there is already systemic abuse happening (at least in Maricopa County).

I feel that most of the FUD is coming from the people that say that the law is written to prevent abuse, and then completely ignore the abuse that is already taking place.

So the filing of a lawsuit = guilt? So, if I were to file a restraining order against you for stalking, that means you've stalked me? If a woman goes to the police saying her 9 year old told her you touched her in her private place, that means youre a pedophile?

Please state the court case where Maricopa County was found guilty of abuse. If its so widespread it should be easy to find.

Thanks. In advance for nothing.

 

[CrackRabbit]

So the filing of a lawsuit = guilt? So, if I were to file a restraining order against you for stalking, that means you've stalked me? If a woman goes to the police saying her 9 year old told her you touched her in her private place, that means youre a pedophile?

Please state the court case where Maricopa County was found guilty of abuse. If its so widespread it should be easy to find.

Thanks. In advance for nothing.

You are correct, the MCSD has not been convicted of anything YET.

How many allegations does it take before you stop to consider that something might be wrong though?
1, 3, 10, 20?

 

[bob4432]

BTW I read the law, I also read the news. Law Enforcement abuse of racial profiling was going on LONG before the law was written.

Edit: I find the quote in your sig amusing. You seem very willing to give up freedom in the name of safety.

my quote - i am not giving up any freedom, neither is any other legal citizen. is that the best you have?

 

[blackangst1]

You are correct, the MCSD has not been convicted of anything YET.

How many allegations does it take before you stop to consider that something might be wrong though?
1, 3, 10, 20?

Do you fail at reading? There have been over 1200 JUST TO SHERIFF JOE in the last 4-5 years. The illegals and legals who are helping them are pissed he's enforcing law. It costs them BILLIONS of dollars in human trafficking, drug, and arms shipments. We have a fuck ton of illegals here man...last count was half a million. And they wreak havoc on our cities. They represent <5&#37; of our population yet make up >40% of all violent crimes here. We are the number one city in the USA for kidnapping, number 2 in the world. Of course people are going to be pissed. You would think EVEN ONE would stick if it were true, no? The ACLU's first lawsuit against Sheriff Joe was about 2 years ago. What happened? Thrown out.

 

[Hacp]

Bottom line. We are a sovereign country. We have standards. What Mexico is doing is criminal. They're sending their poorest citizens to the US to steal American jobs(and send the money back into Mexico).

 

[CrackRabbit]

Do you fail at reading? There have been over 1200 JUST TO SHERIFF JOE in the last 4-5 years. The illegals and legals who are helping them are pissed he's enforcing law. It costs them BILLIONS of dollars in human trafficking, drug, and arms shipments. We have a fuck ton of illegals here man...last count was half a million. And they wreak havoc on our cities. They represent <5&#37; of our population yet make up >40% of all violent crimes here. We are the number one city in the USA for kidnapping, number 2 in the world. Of course people are going to be pissed. You would think EVEN ONE would stick if it were true, no? The ACLU's first lawsuit against Sheriff Joe was about 2 years ago. What happened? Thrown out.

I live in San Diego now and Texas previously. I know there are shit tons of illegals, I know that something needs to be done to stem the tide of them crossing the border.

I can't say why the lawsuits haven't stuck to Sheriff Joe, I haven't viewed any except the ones on the ALCU link I posted earlier.

I just don't want US citizens or legal immigrants and visitors being harassed by LEOs simply because they aren't white.
The allegations, though currently unproven in the courts, point to systemic racial profiling on the part of the MSCD.

 

[CrackRabbit]

my quote - i am not giving up any freedom, neither is any other legal citizen. is that the best you have?

You are, you just don't realize it. Like a frog in a pot of water, bring the temperature up slow enough and they never even realize they are being cooked.

 

[spidey07]

I live in San Diego now and Texas previously. I know there are shit tons of illegals, I know that something needs to be done to stem the tide of them crossing the border.

I can't say why the lawsuits haven't stuck to Sheriff Joe, I haven't viewed any except the ones on the ALCU link I posted earlier.

I just don't want US citizens or legal immigrants and visitors being harassed by LEOs simply because they aren't white.
The allegations, though currently unproven in the courts, point to systemic racial profiling on the part of the MSCD.

It points to illegals using our own laws against us is what it points to.

 

[blackangst1]

I live in San Diego now and Texas previously. I know there are shit tons of illegals, I know that something needs to be done to stem the tide of them crossing the border.

I can't say why the lawsuits haven't stuck to Sheriff Joe, I haven't viewed any except the ones on the ALCU link I posted earlier.

I just don't want US citizens or legal immigrants and visitors being harassed by LEOs simply because they aren't white.
The allegations, though currently unproven in the courts, point to systemic racial profiling on the part of the MSCD.

Well, until you have evidence it is happening, maybe put your trumpet away. If you dont see the money reason behind these lawsuits, well...youre pretty blind. If profiling is running rampant I'll join you on your fight. But for now youre fighting windmills. And it really makes you look ignorant. But play on, if you feel you need to.

 

[OrByte]

You continue operating under the assumption this law approves of 'targeting' people based on skin color etc.

1. Even if AZ wanted to do this, they can't because that's clearly unconstitutional.

2. The AZ law is a copy of the already existing federal law, AZ has simply adopted federal law. Obviously federal law doesn't allow what you claim.

3. AZ has gone to extra lengths detailing how the profiling you complain about is strictly forbidden.

I don't see how it can be any clearer.

Fern

I don't agree Fern.

This isn't simply "copying" federal law..because it is turning local Arizona law enforcement into immigration officials...that is the biggest change I see. And that is toxic. I'm sorry so many people just refuse to see this.

Another thing, practically speaking....ANY law enforcement officer is going to get hit with a "racial profiling" complaint the moment they ask for papers. Think those police officers don't see that coming a mile away?

Arizona, California, the Fed, timbukfreakintu...it doesn't matter. Laws like these cannot be enforced. It is toxic.

And I say this having taken the position that Arizona is right to address its illegal issue...but they certainly went about it the wrong way.

 

[blackangst1]

I don't agree Fern.

This isn't simply "copying" federal law..because it is turning local Arizona law enforcement into immigration officials...that is the biggest change I see. And that is toxic. I'm sorry so many people just refuse to see this.

No it isnt. If its found that someone IS illegal, or suspect, they are turned over to ICE.

Another thing, practically speaking....ANY law enforcement officer is going to get hit with a "racial profiling" complaint the moment they ask for papers. Think those police officers don't see that coming a mile away?

Of course they do. Maybe you didnt read previous posts, but Maricopa county has has thousands of lawsuits, not one has stuck. Theyre used to it.

Arizona, California, the Fed, timbukfreakintu...it doesn't matter. Laws like these cannot be enforced. It is toxic.

So you dont think we should enforce federal immigration law? Is that what youre saying? Maybe you need to expand on "laws like these".

And I say this having taken the position that Arizona is right to address its illegal issue...but they certainly went about it the wrong way.

And your solution would be?

 

[bob4432]

I live in San Diego now and Texas previously. I know there are shit tons of illegals, I know that something needs to be done to stem the tide of them crossing the border.

I can't say why the lawsuits haven't stuck to Sheriff Joe, I haven't viewed any except the ones on the ALCU link I posted earlier.

I just don't want US citizens or legal immigrants and visitors being harassed by LEOs simply because they aren't white.
The allegations, though currently unproven in the courts, point to systemic racial profiling on the part of the MSCD.

the reason the lawsuits haven't "stuck" is because he hasn't broke the law. pretty simple. if leo was actually racially profiling for all the years that there have been drop house busts, sheriff crime sweeps, etc, don't you think it would have been video taped since that is what the pro-illegal talking heads tell the illegals or "brown people" - to do - record the leo actions?

again, az leo in general, especially in the phx, tucson, yuma vicinity is far from a white group. again, read the bill, it is all in there. also, what is MSCD? do you mean MCSO?

 

[bob4432]

You are, you just don't realize it. Like a frog in a pot of water, bring the temperature up slow enough and they never even realize they are being cooked.

ok, i will believe you, sure :thumbsdown:. you can't even comprehend the situation you are fighting so i wouldn't expect you to understand the quote. just stay in CA, they need people w/ your narrow, shallow mind there.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

The Left made many claims about a "FUD" program regarding the HC bill, yet here we have a FUD campaign of stagering proportions. Likewise when Obama is accussed of 'planning to take some action' those on the Left call foul because it hasn't actually happened yet; we'll can't we ask to see systemic examples of abuse before getting all up in arms over it? I think that reasonable given the specific prohibitions of such written clearly into the law.

Fern

Excellent point Fern.