Hello
I'm not saying anything about whether or not there are actually absolute morals. What I'm saying is that it would be possible for thier to be absolute morals. And that this possiblity is independent of the existence of a god.
the opposing argument: Morals are aboslute because god is absolute, and he has decreed that certain things are always right and always wrong. If god had not declared these things right and wrong, then there would be no absolute morality.
My argument: It is possible for morals to be absolute, even in the absence of a god, because (fill in the blank - that's what this thread is for).
be happy to, this is an interesting position. I think you need to define morality first...
Right now the only argument I've come up with is that, regardless of the existance of a god, there are absolutes in the universe. The speed of light is always the same. This is true whether or not a god delared the value of the speed of light. This shows that there is in fact absolutes, that would exist regardless of thier origin. I realize that we don't know why the speed of light is 175000miles/second (or whatever, I'll look it up), and for similar reasons we may not know why rape is absolutely wrong. However, if the laws of physics are universally constant, than it follows that others laws are universal in nature, possibly including morality.
It sounds more organized in my head.... anyone have any other arguments?
Your argument is somewhat weak as it doesn't address the same levels of being (need to take this into account when arguing ideas of God). Even if you demonstrate the absoluteness of physical properties (dubious at best), this is open to circularity, issues of qualia, epistemic justification and warrant to name a few apparent objections.
First, let us define ideas of morality and absolutes.
Morality, as opposed to ethics, involves an innately known "ought" that should take place regardless of circumstance. For example, we know that homicide should not be committed regardless of circumstance. It is something that is known to every person who claims the title "human". It is, therefore, an absolute.
An absolute then is something that is true in every case, a law, an unchanging fact. This exists
a priori, without dependence on us. A sort of "natural law" in and of itself. The argument you now make is that these exist independent of a God and that morality can exist at least some of the time by itself.
Your task it twofold. First you need to argue that morality can ever be separated from society or social valuations. That is, one can come to know what an absolute standard of morality is and what it would look like. This is tricky because if it is purely outside, how do we ever come to know it? If it is a priori, then is it really absolute or absolute only insofar as humans all share it? You've taken the former position and now comes step two. After defining that morality can be absolute, you need to go to it.
Step two is demonstrating the lack of necessity of God in having an absolute standard of morality. If you've shown that morality can be absolute (arguments below), it must be completely independent of God in order for your argument to work. Yet consider, can it ever truly be independent and existing "out there" somewhere? If it is, then you've disproven yourself because that is the same as the idea of a God as the basis of moral valuation (as both within and without)
You need to bite the bullet and simply cause a dependence on another since an independence or a jumping outside of the confines of human circularity and self-reference requires ideas of some sort of metaphysical sentient being. If it is not dependent on God and if it cannot be independent, it must be dependent on something else.
Among your choices:
1) Human beings themselves as the arbitrators of absolute morality
2) Looking to "nature" and perception of "physical laws" to base ideas of morality in arguing that as physical beings, we can reduce everything to a materialism
3) Evolutionary theory (Hi Rob
) as a basis for morality. Morality depends on evolution and survival
4) Liberal notions of individual absolute morality (similar to 1 but tied into an ideology)
5) Demiurgical accounts of moral causation or ideas of "lesser gods" as creators of morality
6) Absolute morality as a given foundation known from the existence of pure mathematics (tie in Godel, Whitehead, Adler)
7) Absolute morality found by "reason" or "objective" contemplation based on a atheistic or agnostic system
8) Absolute morality dependent on itself as a metaphysical entity that is not God but outside of the normal human self (cheap way out but it works)
9) umm... that's all I can think of.
If you need more help ask, but that should be a solid start.
Cheers !
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