Philadelphia Amtrak train derailment

[mmntech]

Similar thing happened here in 2012. A VIA Rail train was travelling at 108km/h through a construction zone. Over four times faster than it was authorized. Hit a crossover switch at speed and jumped the tracks, killing three and injuring 46. The investigation blamed the crew for misinterpreting a signal.

Canada's rail system is falling apart. Been two many bad accidents lately. A lot of them purely due to negligence and operator error. I suspect it's the same in the United States. Obviously railroads need more rigorous training like the airlines do.

 

[CraKaJaX]

Looks like, similar to the Metro North crash in 2013, it was caused by excess speed going into a curve. Unfortunate timing as I think PTC was supposed to be fully rolled out on the NEC by 2016, which would have automatically slowed the train.

But yea...aged rail infrastructure in the Northeast is on borrowed time in general with little political incentive to fix anything because it's expensive and not sexy.

Yep - same exact thing. I'm sure the operator will claim drowsiness, long hours, etc. but the black box doesn't lie.

I don't think this is just a northeast thing. I would argue that the most commuters traveling via train is in the northeast and therefore you'd think they'd have better upkeep on all of it. I highly doubt the system used for transporting goods through the Midwest is any better looking. It's probably all original. We'll just have to wait until an oil tanker derails and leaks on some precious land, Then it'll make the news and they won't do shit about it. Just like how nothing came about the metro North accident (except a few lawsuits of course), nothing will happen with this one. I'd put money on it. Really sad.

What we really need to do is copy Europe. They've got their shit together when it comes to trains. Hell, even public transportation in general.

 

[RampantAndroid]

The reason the US and Europe are hard to compare is how large the US is - most trains between the East and West coast will not be profitable. It's a 2.5 day train ride across the country and expensive. It's cheaper to fly. The NE is the only area populated densely enough to make trains viable.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT trains to be around....but if the NE corridor is falling behind...

 

[Ruptga]

The US as a whole isn't completely comparable to the EU, but the northeast pretty much is. The main difference is we don't care, driving is the American way, and we'd rather throw money at the DoD than spend it on something that might improve conditions for the public.

 

[Markbnj]

Just out of curiosity I fired up Train Simulator tonight and ran an almost identical consist up the NEC from 30th Street station in Philly to Frankford Junction. It was interesting. After the Schuylkill river crossing it's something like 5 miles to the curve at the junction. The first section rises to 80 mph line speed through the curve by St. Christophers. Coming out of that curve there is a one mile stretch where the line speed is 110 mph, and then the 50 mph curve at the junction.

The simulator isn't perfect, but anyway... exiting the first curve at 80 mph and applying full throttle at the 110 mph speed marker the consist hit 110 mph about halfway to the next curve at Frankford Junction. I ran the train through the curve three times, hitting the emergency brake service each time at the "oh shit" point when the curve became visible. It negotiated the curve at 106 and 110 mph, but came off at 113 mph, in almost exactly the same spot, and with the cars ending up in about the same places. Just reinforced for me that if the driver forgot about that curve (somehow... but I mean... wtf) and accelerated to line speed it seems like he could have hit 100+ before seeing the curve ahead, and what would happen is what happened.

 

[Proprioceptive]

I have a friend that was on the train... he's an Engineer for Amtrak... apparently he's okay from the posts on his Facebook. I haven't heard word whether he was at the controls or not. I haven't spoken with him in a few years and I'm really hoping that he wasn't the one responsible... I can't imagine the stress he'd be going through. They haven't released the name of the Engineer so I'm kind of scared to find out when they do announce it.

 

[soccerballtux]

My good friend's cousin was on this. Survived, thankfully.

this guy on some forums I visit's good friend's cousin was on this.

 

[soccerballtux]

Just out of curiosity I fired up Train Simulator tonight and ran an almost identical consist up the NEC from 30th Street station in Philly to Frankford Junction. It was interesting. After the Schuylkill river crossing it's something like 5 miles to the curve at the junction. The first section rises to 80 mph line speed through the curve by St. Christophers. Coming out of that curve there is a one mile stretch where the line speed is 110 mph, and then the 50 mph curve at the junction.

The simulator isn't perfect, but anyway... exiting the first curve at 80 mph and applying full throttle at the 110 mph speed marker the consist hit 110 mph about halfway to the next curve at Frankford Junction. I ran the train through the curve three times, hitting the emergency brake service each time at the "oh shit" point when the curve became visible. It negotiated the curve at 106 and 110 mph, but came off at 113 mph, in almost exactly the same spot, and with the cars ending up in about the same places. Just reinforced for me that if the driver forgot about that curve (somehow... but I mean... wtf) and accelerated to line speed it seems like he could have hit 100+ before seeing the curve ahead, and what would happen is what happened.

that's actually kinda interesting. cool

 

[boomerang]

I have a friend that was on the train... he's an Engineer for Amtrak... apparently he's okay from the posts on his Facebook. I haven't heard word whether he was at the controls or not. I haven't spoken with him in a few years and I'm really hoping that he wasn't the one responsible... I can't imagine the stress he'd be going through. They haven't released the name of the Engineer so I'm kind of scared to find out when they do announce it.

The engineers name is Brandon Bostian. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...SES-investigators-statement-deadly-crash.html

 

[Kaido]

The engineers name is Brandon Bostian. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...SES-investigators-statement-deadly-crash.html

I love how they post his name & villify him without getting the full story first. Did he have a heart attack? Was he being held at gunpoint? Was he asleep at the wheel? Was he showing off for somebody? We don't know. Usually the simplest answer is the correct one, but how crappy is it to slander someone's name until the facts are out in the open? Look at what happened to Adam Lanza's brother because the press jumped all over the ID he was carrying with him before getting the facts straight.

 

[CZroe]

I love how they post his name & villify him without getting the full story first. Did he have a heart attack? Was he being held at gunpoint? Was he asleep at the wheel? Was he showing off for somebody? We don't know. Usually the simplest answer is the correct one, but how crappy is it to slander someone's name until the facts are out in the open? Look at what happened to Adam Lanza's brother because the press jumped all over the ID he was carrying with him before getting the facts straight.

Almost as bad:

A preliminary investigation by the NTSB has revealed he did hit the breaks, but it wasn't enough to keep the train on the tracks.

 

[kranky]

If speed was the issue, then the crash wasn't an infrastructure problem. The new technology of Positive Train Control likely would have prevented it, and it is being installed everywhere by law - it's just not completed yet.

Almost as bad:

A preliminary investigation by the NTSB has revealed he did hit the breaks, but it wasn't enough to keep the train on the tracks.

One of the most common mistakes I see in print, right behind "sneak peak"

 

[boomerang]

I love how they post his name & villify him without getting the full story first. Did he have a heart attack? Was he being held at gunpoint? Was he asleep at the wheel? Was he showing off for somebody? We don't know. Usually the simplest answer is the correct one, but how crappy is it to slander someone's name until the facts are out in the open? Look at what happened to Adam Lanza's brother because the press jumped all over the ID he was carrying with him before getting the facts straight.

What part or parts of the article do you deem to be slander?

 

[Anubis]

Just out of curiosity I fired up Train Simulator tonight and ran an almost identical consist up the NEC from 30th Street station in Philly to Frankford Junction. It was interesting. After the Schuylkill river crossing it's something like 5 miles to the curve at the junction. The first section rises to 80 mph line speed through the curve by St. Christophers. Coming out of that curve there is a one mile stretch where the line speed is 110 mph, and then the 50 mph curve at the junction.

The simulator isn't perfect, but anyway... exiting the first curve at 80 mph and applying full throttle at the 110 mph speed marker the consist hit 110 mph about halfway to the next curve at Frankford Junction. I ran the train through the curve three times, hitting the emergency brake service each time at the "oh shit" point when the curve became visible. It negotiated the curve at 106 and 110 mph, but came off at 113 mph, in almost exactly the same spot, and with the cars ending up in about the same places. Just reinforced for me that if the driver forgot about that curve (somehow... but I mean... wtf) and accelerated to line speed it seems like he could have hit 100+ before seeing the curve ahead, and what would happen is what happened.

that is interesting

also very dumb to have a section where you speed up to 110 and then have to break down to 50 in such a short distance

 

[CZroe]

What part or parts of the article do you deem to be slander?

The very first word: "Reckless" -before we know if he had any control over that (blacked out, mechanical failure, indicator failure, etc).

 

[boomerang]

The very first word: "Reckless" -before we know if he had any control over that (blacked out, mechanical failure, indicator failure, etc).

That's a quote from the mayor of Philadelphia. Kaido appeared to be unhappy with the Daily Mail that is just reporting what the mayor said. No slander on the part of the Daily Mail. But Kaido is the one that made the accusation so it's up to him to tell us what he deems to be slander.

 

[Ichinisan]

The very first word: "Reckless" -before we know if he had any control over that (blacked out, mechanical failure, indicator failure, etc).

It was very clearly a quote. It was in quotes. They said who they were quoting.

Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter says the driving was 'reckless'

 

[CZroe]

That's a quote from the mayor of Philadelphia. Kaido appeared to be unhappy with the Daily Mail that is just reporting what the mayor said. No slander on the part of the Daily Mail. But Kaido is the one that made the accusation so it's up to him to tell us what he deems to be slander.

"They" is collective. Mayor said one thing ("Reckless") and DailyMail reported it with another (name). Heck, he might even be talking about the mayor and offficials and not DailyMail at all, since they were talking about the named person.

 

[Kaido]

That's a quote from the mayor of Philadelphia. Kaido appeared to be unhappy with the Daily Mail that is just reporting what the mayor said. No slander on the part of the Daily Mail. But Kaido is the one that made the accusation so it's up to him to tell us what he deems to be slander.

Eh, CNN updated the title:

Philadelphia mayor rips Amtrak train engineer; NTSB official fires back

I just don't think it's fair to post the operator's name to the public without knowing all the details first. Then you're stuck with a bad reputation for life, even if you're innocent. Say he had a stroke & only recovered enough to hit the brakes. Most likely not, but still...once your name is out there, you get the full wrath of the public's hate right away. A quick google search of people who have shared a similar fate:

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-people-the-internet-wrongly-accused.php

People are more than ready to anonymously hate on anything they can; putting a person's name out there in public before the investigation has proven what the actual root cause was can have some pretty horrible consequences for the person in question. I know that's just how it is, just saying...

 

[boomerang]

Eh, CNN updated the title:

Philadelphia mayor rips Amtrak train engineer; NTSB official fires back

I just don't think it's fair to post the operator's name to the public without knowing all the details first. Then you're stuck with a bad reputation for life, even if you're innocent. Say he had a stroke & only recovered enough to hit the brakes. Most likely not, but still...once your name is out there, you get the full wrath of the public's hate right away. A quick google search of people who have shared a similar fate:

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-people-the-internet-wrongly-accused.php

People are more than ready to anonymously hate on anything they can; putting a person's name out there in public before the investigation has proven what the actual root cause was can have some pretty horrible consequences for the person in question. I know that's just how it is, just saying...

And the counterpoint is that there is a 'conspiracy' to keep information from the public. Whatever. This is a tangent I no longer wish to contribute to. People dead, people missing, people injured. That's what the thread should be about.

 

[Markbnj]

that is interesting

also very dumb to have a section where you speed up to 110 and then have to break down to 50 in such a short distance

To be clear I have no knowledge of what the line speed on that stretch was on the day the accident happened. They do a lot of research on these routes when building them, including cab rides, so it is probably accurate but there's no way to say for sure.

 

[Deeko]

that is interesting

also very dumb to have a section where you speed up to 110 and then have to break down to 50 in such a short distance

I saw somewhere that the stretch leading into the curve has a maximum of 80. So they need to slow from 80->50, not 110->50. Not quite as crazy.

 

[Kaido]

And the counterpoint is that there is a 'conspiracy' to keep information from the public. Whatever. This is a tangent I no longer wish to contribute to. People dead, people missing, people injured. That's what the thread should be about.

Yup. I'm sure I mis-used the word slander. I've just read of so many cases where people have been falsely accused, or hung out to try in front of the public, before the full story was made known, and by then it was too late.

 

[CZroe]

A quick google search of people who have shared a similar fate:

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-people-the-internet-wrongly-accused.php

People are more than ready to anonymously hate on anything they can; putting a person's name out there in public before the investigation has proven what the actual root cause was can have some pretty horrible consequences for the person in question. I know that's just how it is, just saying...

Richard Jewel
George Zimmerman
...

Yup. I'm sure I mis-used the word slander. I've just read of so many cases where people have been falsely accused, or hung out to try in front of the public, before the full story was made known, and by then it was too late.

"In print, it's libel."

 

[K1052]

If speed was the issue, then the crash wasn't an infrastructure problem. The new technology of Positive Train Control likely would have prevented it, and it is being installed everywhere by law - it's just not completed yet.

One could make the argument that the failure of the government to fund the PTC mandate, at least for public transportation systems, has somewhat delayed implementation due to limited capital funding being available.