Peter King and Ed Koch on Patriot Act

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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Interesting OP-ED piece from the New York Post.

I'll just post the whole thing to save you a click.

December 5, 2003 -- THE brutal attacks of 9/11 brought home to the American people what should have been clear to our nation's leaders years before that fateful day: We are at war with Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda and their radical Islamic terrorist allies throughout the world and within our borders.
It is a war that threatens our national survival. Yet, listening to an increasingly shrill chorus of political voices, Americans could almost conclude that the real threat to our country comes not from bin Laden and al Qaeda but John Ashcroft and the Patriot Act.

Wesley Clark says the Patriot Act "essentially suspended habeas corpus." Howard Dean calls the law "shameful" and "unconstitutional." Dick Gephardt pledges to fire Aschroft in his "first five minutes as president." John Kerry assures his audiences, "There will be no John Ashcroft trampling on the Bill of Rights" in a Kerry administration.

All this for a law that two years ago passed both houses overwhelmingly, with only one dissenting vote in the Senate.

For the most part, the Democratic presidential aspirants have not gone beyond applause-gathering one-liners. But former Vice President Al Gore recently delivered a detailed speech extremely critical of the Patriot Act and the motives of the Bush administration itself.

Gore accused the president and his attorney general of "constant violations of civil liberties," "putting our country in grave and unnecessary danger" and "using the war against terrorism for partisan advantage." His attacks centered on three parts of the Patriot Act: Sec. 214, which allows federal agents to delay giving suspects notice after a search has been carried out; Sec. 215, which allows searches of medical, business and library records of suspected terrorists; and Sec. 218, which allows surveillance of cell phones and Internet communications.

Before addressing these specifics, let's put Gore's case in its proper perspective by citing Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), who recently said she hadn't found a "single abuse of the Patriot Act" - and when she asked the ACLU for any instance of abuse, was told, "they had none." Similarly, Sen. Joe Biden (D-Del.) said criticism of the Patriot Act "is both misinformed and overblown" and the Justice Department has "done a pretty good job in terms of implementing" the law.



Now for the details.

* The delayed notification in Sec. 213 was already the law in cases involving organized crime, narcotics and pornography. It makes common sense because it would be absurd to inform a suspected mobster or a terrorist during the course of an investigation that a listening device had been installed in his home or office.

* Sec. 215 - the much-feared "assault against librarians" - has not been used even once. Nonetheless, we strongly believe this is a weapon that must remain in the prosecutor's arsenal. There could well be cases, for instance, when it would be critical to learn whether a suspected terrorist is reading books on explosives or the structural design of office buildings, landmark sites, bridges or tunnels. It should also be noted that library records were instrumental in tracking down such murderers as the Zodiac killer and the Unabomber.

* Sec. 218 merely gives federal agents authority to conduct surveillance of cell phones and the Internet to the same extent they can surveil rotary phones. It would be foolhardy to let terrorists use the technology of modern telecommunications without fear of being detected.

The bottom line is that the criticisms by Gore and the other critics are shameful and irresponsible. Of course we gave our government added power in the aftermath of 9/11. These powers are essential to confront a new and deadly threat.

We are also well aware that all police powers are susceptible to abuse. That risk exists, however, every time we give a law-enforcement office a loaded weapon. It is the job of the Legislatures and the courts to guard against such abuses. Responsible criticism is essential to safeguarding our citizens against governmental abuse.

It is in that spirit of responsible criticism that we raise our own concern - on President Bush's claimed right (which is not a part of the Patriot Act) to declare American citizens "enemy combatants" and effectively take them out of the legal system by detaining them indefinitely without judicial review. This practice is too susceptible to well-intentioned error - let alone abuse - without built-in judicial safeguards. Similarly, whether or not an individual is entitled to proceed in a court action, any person being detained should have the right to consult with an attorney.

Having raised these concerns, we commend President Bush and Attorney General Ashcroft for the superb job they have done over the past two years. Our liberties have been protected and our country has not been attacked. Unlike their critics, George W. Bush and John Ashcroft have had to face the hard choices and make the hard decisions. And they have made them well.

Rep. Peter King (R-Seaford), is a member of the House Homeland Security Committee. Ed Koch was New York City mayor, 1978-1989.
 

Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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I would gladly sacrifice liberty for safety. You have no idea just how frightened I am. And besides I'm an invisible part of the machine itself. They will never come after me. I will be part of the going after them. I am much too self important to have to grow up by facing my fear. I demand feeling safe. Don't get in my way. I warn you.
 

alchemize

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Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I would gladly sacrifice liberty for safety. You have no idea just how frightened I am. And besides I'm an invisible part of the machine itself. They will never come after me. I will be part of the going after them. I am much too self important to have to grow up by facing my fear. I demand feeling safe. Don't get in my way. I warn you.

Moonie really seems to have his pointless posts on a roll today. No sense addressing the topic at hand. Much easier to distort and distract.

Interesting article. The system appears to be working, we aren't reverting to a fascist regime. I'm sure all the alarmists are depressed.
 

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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I too have not been able to find a case where the Patriot Act was used to abuse the average American. I thought the highlighting of the key provisions that were being attacked was great. I did not know that these were basically extensions of existing laws.

Also, I thought Feinstein's comments were very interesting.
 

Ferocious

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Feb 16, 2000
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Then Neocons are not stupid.

They would never put the 2004 race in jeopardy by sticking their noses where they don't belong.

Not just yet anyways.
 

kylebisme

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you realise that the new your post is owned by the same guy that owns foxnews right?
 

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
you realise that the new your post is owned by the same guy that owns foxnews right?

I didn't know that, nor do I see the relevance of that. The op/ed piece is by Peter king and Ed Koch.
 

Corn

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Nov 12, 1999
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I would gladly sacrifice liberty.......

Even though Moonie is projecting sarcasm, he's made it clear time after time he cares not for liberty.

Moonie does not believe in freedom of speech/press. He does not believe that private corporations should have the right to report our news. He does not believe that corporations have the right to support politicians--yet I wonder if he feels the same way about the Sierra Club.

Moonie's words ring truer than he intends.
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Corn
I would gladly sacrifice liberty.......

Even though Moonie is projecting sarcasm, he's made it clear time after time he cares not for liberty.

Moonie does not believe in freedom of speech/press. He does not believe that private corporations should have the right to report our news. He does not believe that corporations have the right to support politicians--yet I wonder if he feels the same way about the Sierra Club.

Moonie's words ring truer than he intends.
So who cares, he's not our AG!

What's the purpose of declaring an American Citizen an Enemy Combatant thus denying isConstitutional Rights? Is that meant to scare others who might plot against this Country, it's Government or even the Bush Administration?

 

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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Red, is there something in the op-ed piece that you disagree with? Have you read it?
 

Red Dawn

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Originally posted by: miguel
Red, is there something in the op-ed piece that you disagree with? Have you read it?
I glanced over it. I think that the Patriot Act gives the Government to much power over the Citizens. Though they haven't abused it yet they could which is why I am against it, especially with a Religious Fanatic like Asscrack as AG and the nefarious Neocons in charge of the Government.

Now can you answer my question?
 

Corn

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Nov 12, 1999
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What's the purpose of declaring an American Citizen an Enemy Combatant thus denying isConstitutional Rights? Is that meant to scare others who might plot against this Country, it's Government or even the Bush Administration?

I do not know the "purpose" as I was not involved in that decision, nor am I privy to any of the evidence or information that was used in declaring Padilla an "enemy combatant". One thing I do take comfort in is that when these constitutional issues arise, the supreme court will eventually decide on their ultimate legality.

Plotting against the "Bush administration" is plotting against the government, and ultimately, the country. Is there any difference? Or are you ridiculously asserting that someone acting politically against the Bush Admin would be declared an "enemy combatant"?
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
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Just because they haven't been seriously abused yet doesn't mean they won't be. Isn't that essentially the logic some around here have on WMDs in Iraq? Just because they haven't been found, doesn't mean they aren't there? ;) Anyhoo, the whole concept that the US Patriot Act hasn't been abused is somewhat debatable. There are instances of the act being used to bust drug users/dealers, strip club operators and to designate anti-war groups as terrorists.

The ACLU is is highlighting a new report showing how the DoJ is skewing their statistics to show progress in the war on terror where there really is little progress.

Among the report?s most significant findings: more than half of all 879 terrorism or anti-terrorism-classified convictions since 9/11 resulted in no jail time. Only 23 convicts received sentences of five years or more - and only five (including "shoe bomber" Richard Reid) garnered sentences greater than 20 years in prison.

The numbers were even starker when TRAC compared the conviction record under one subcategory, "international terrorism," which would presumably encompass al-Qaeda-style conspiracies. Of the 184 international terrorism-classified convictions since 9/11, only three have received sentences greater than five years (compared incidentally to the two-year period before 9/11, which saw six such convictions). Remarkably, since 9/11, 80 international terrorism convictions resulted in no jail time and 91 received sentences of less than a year.

... snip ...

"This is a long, dense set of facts and figures that says one thing: the war on terrorism isn?t proceeding in the way that many of us thought," Edgar said. "Crucially, it shows us that laws like the USA Patriot Act, which definitely make us less free, are also doing very little to make us any safer."

Why take away civil liberties when doing so doesn't even make us safe? In the aftermath of 9/11, all kinds of stupid ideas made some degree of sense to a panicked U.S. Congress. After calming down years later, we should definitely be reevaluating some of those hasty decisions.
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Corn
What's the purpose of declaring an American Citizen an Enemy Combatant thus denying isConstitutional Rights? Is that meant to scare others who might plot against this Country, it's Government or even the Bush Administration?

I do not know the "purpose" as I was not involved in that decision, nor am I privy to any of the evidence or information that was used in declaring Padilla an "enemy combatant". One thing I do take comfort in is that when these constitutional issues arise, the supreme court will eventually decide on their ultimate legality.

Plotting against the "Bush administration" is plotting against the government, and ultimately, the country. Is there any difference? Or are you ridiculously asserting that someone acting politically against the Bush Admin would be declared an "enemy combatant"?
I'm asserting that it could be used by the Bush Administration to intimidate those whom the Administration might feel threatened from, like an insider that might have information about the Bush Administration that could bring it down.

Regarding the Patriot Act, I bet Nixon and his Cronies would have loved it.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: Corn
What's the purpose of declaring an American Citizen an Enemy Combatant thus denying isConstitutional Rights? Is that meant to scare others who might plot against this Country, it's Government or even the Bush Administration?

I do not know the "purpose" as I was not involved in that decision, nor am I privy to any of the evidence or information that was used in declaring Padilla an "enemy combatant". One thing I do take comfort in is that when these constitutional issues arise, the supreme court will eventually decide on their ultimate legality.

Plotting against the "Bush administration" is plotting against the government, and ultimately, the country. Is there any difference? Or are you ridiculously asserting that someone acting politically against the Bush Admin would be declared an "enemy combatant"?

That is, in fact, exactly what he's declaring.

You'd have thought his suit of tin-foil body armor used to keep the Catholic church from spying on his thoughts would have shorted out his computer by now. *shrug*
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Corn
What's the purpose of declaring an American Citizen an Enemy Combatant thus denying isConstitutional Rights? Is that meant to scare others who might plot against this Country, it's Government or even the Bush Administration?

I do not know the "purpose" as I was not involved in that decision, nor am I privy to any of the evidence or information that was used in declaring Padilla an "enemy combatant". One thing I do take comfort in is that when these constitutional issues arise, the supreme court will eventually decide on their ultimate legality.

Plotting against the "Bush administration" is plotting against the government, and ultimately, the country. Is there any difference? Or are you ridiculously asserting that someone acting politically against the Bush Admin would be declared an "enemy combatant"?

That is, in fact, exactly what he's declaring.
No it isn't. Let's say a Modern Day Daniel Ellsberg discovered some Documents that could bring down the Bush Administration. The Neocons in charge of the Administration could declare that he was supporting terrorism and use it to lock him up under that clause thus denying his right to be represented by a Counsel, a Fair Trial ,etc.
You'd have thought his suit of tin-foil body armor used to keep the Catholic church from spying on his thoughts would have shorted out his computer by now. *shrug*
You'd have thought an avowed Limbaughtista such as yourself would come up with a wittier Ad Hom!
 

Corn

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Nov 12, 1999
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I'm asserting that it could be used by the Bush Administration to intimidate those whom the Administration might feel threatened from, like an insider that might have information about the Bush Administration that could bring it down.

I see a lot of "could's" in there. I could invent an engine that could propel spacecraft to faster than light travel. I could be a movie star.........

Every day police officers could abuse their power and use their firearms against innocent civilian hotties to kidnap, rape, torture, and murder.

At any minute, a satellite could fall from the sky and could land on my house.



The fact of the matter is that probably any president could make almost anyone "disappear" if they so choose, hell, look at all the people Clinton had killed. ;)
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Corn
I'm asserting that it could be used by the Bush Administration to intimidate those whom the Administration might feel threatened from, like an insider that might have information about the Bush Administration that could bring it down.

I see a lot of "could's" in there. I could invent an engine that could propel spacecraft to faster than light travel. I could be a movie star.........

Every day police officers could abuse their power and use their firearms against innocent civilian hotties to kidnap, rape, torture, and murder.

At any minute, a satellite could fall from the sky and could land on my house.
Yeah yeah yeah, I don't disagree with you about politicians, even Presidents, having people just go away. But with this law they could effectively prevent a high profile individual from coming forward and exposing the Administration of criminal activity. Hell I wouldn't want a Dean Administration to be able to do that (not that he is going to win)

Anyway,I would still like to know what purpose this law has, especially when it comes to American Citizens.
 

Corn

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Nov 12, 1999
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The Neocons in charge of the Administration could declare that he was supporting terrorism and use it to lock him up under that clause thus denying his right to be represented by a Counsel, a Fair Trial ,etc.

That's bullshit and you know it Red. Did Nixon even know Ellsberg existed prior to the pentagon papers? No one would fall for the "whistleblower is really a terrorist" scenerio after the fact.
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Corn
The Neocons in charge of the Administration could declare that he was supporting terrorism and use it to lock him up under that clause thus denying his right to be represented by a Counsel, a Fair Trial ,etc.

That's bullshit and you know it Red. Did Nixon even know Ellsberg existed prior to the pentagon papers? No one would fall for the "whistleblower is really a terrorist" scenerio after the fact.

Fine, that still doesn't answer my question.
 

Corn

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Nov 12, 1999
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Fine, that still doesn't answer my question.

No it does not. As I stated earlier, I'm not qualified to answer that question as I was not part of that decision making process. I have no relevent information with regard to the "why", only that it is with a few generic "in the interests of national security" rhetoric spoon fed to us peons from those really in charge.
 

Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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Anyway,I would still like to know what purpose this law has, especially when it comes to American Citizens.
------------

I feel much safer and don't have to look at my fear. What could be more important than that. It's tremendoulsy comforting to know I live in a dangerously punitive world where anything odd gets crushed. Inwardly it makes me excited. All those years as a child feeling being told I was worthless, being molded to walk the line. Now I get my turn to grind. Now I can be the inquisitor. It's a real thrill. Freedom is being like me.

 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Anyway,I would still like to know what purpose this law has, especially when it comes to American Citizens.
------------

I feel much safer and don't have to look at my fear. What could be more important than that. It's tremendoulsy comforting to know I live in a dangerously punitive world where anything odd gets crushed. Inwardly it makes me excited. All those years as a child feeling being told I was worthless, being molded to walk the line. Now I get my turn to grind. Now I can be the inquisitor. It's a real thrill. Freedom is being like me.
Hey Moonie, you get a batch of bad acid?
 

Corn

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Nov 12, 1999
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I guess my real issue is that "could" is neither an event, nor a fact. A billion things in this would could cause something bad to happen, either to one person, or a whole lot of them. Do we ban everything that could bring harm, simply because it could?

Do I believe that Bush is a pure as the driven snow? Of course not, but I don't believe that he is evil incarnate either. I believe that he is honest in his desire to safeguard our country. I don't, not for a second, believe that anyone is "pulling his strings". Is he infallable? Not hardly, he's a regular guy in an extraordinary position, he's gonna make mistakes. Do we revoke his presidency simply because he could make a mistake?

There is not a single person alive, nor law enacted, that could live up to the scrutiny of "could".
 

Corn

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Nov 12, 1999
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Hey Moonie, you get a batch of bad acid?

Eh? He's simply relishing his well known role as our sarcastic elitist saviour. Ironically enough, he's still just as bad as the rest of us. He's learned nothing from his "better way". His feigned sarcasm is merely an insult meant to massage the hurt of feeling worthless that he struggles with.