I'd say both teams choked at times... although, Young never choked and showed his God-like ability once again.
USC's defense was just not very good this year and their plan of attack against Young was piss poor, to say the least.
There were a couple of seriously suspect official reviews. (1) The review at the end of the game that stopped the clock, put 12 seconds back on the clock, and gave Texas a free timeout...that was shady, real shady. (2) The lack of review on Vince's pitch where his knee was clearly down. (3) A comparison of the interception of Leinart's pass in the endzone versus the reception by White and then the fumble that reviewed and ruled an incompletion... in my opinion, the concept of possession of the football was applied both times heavily in Texas' favor. I think Leinarts pass was an INT. But the later pass that fumbled was a fumble and should've been USC's ball.
Bottom line...Texas won, they most likely would have won regardless...but, IMO, this game was tainted by some shady review booth officiating that ended up going in Texas' favor on 3-4 important occasions.
wow are some of you football idiots.
Vince Young, late first round? HA! Top 3 pick, period. Mediocre passing? He's made meteoric improvements from his Freshman year till now - in fact he's a much more accomplished passer than Mike Vick was at this point in their careers.
A half-step faster? How about 2 and half steps faster? Did Mike Vick's speed get negated when he went to the NFL? Not even close - and Young is every bit that fast, and 5 inches taller to boot.
Ohio St was able to control Young's rushing after the first 2 series because their LB's are all NFL-caliber players (and AJ Hawk is a top 5 pick himself), but with their LB's staying closer to the line of scrimmage, Young beat them throwing the ball.
Reggie Bush was the focus of the Texas defense, and they limited his explosive plays to only a few, but he still had 170+ rushing & receiving yards combined - and yes, receiving yards count too, who is the idiot that said his receiving yards don't mean anything?
A third-down back in the NFL? Wow, buy a clue please. Is Tiki Barber a giant? Is Warrick Dunn? Admittedly he's not a move-the-pile RB, but my god he's the most fluid runner I've seen since OJ Simpson - he'll be an NFL star.
As for Pete Carroll holding Bush back because of what happened to McGahee, that is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The FACT of the matter is that Lendale White is also an NFL caliber RB, he's got 55 career rushing TD's, and he'd been able to run the ball for 5+ a pop until that carry..the Texas D made a play in a game where neither D really made too many plays.
Matt Leinhart was being showcased for the NFL? Go away with this garbage, he's a top 5 pick - and would have been the #1 pick had he come out last season.
3-peat bullsh%t? How is that? It was a legit attempt at winning three championships in a row - don't give me the "LSU was the champ 2 years ago" BS, they both were because the system doesn't always work. Arguing otherwise is petty and pointless.
It was a great game, Carroll's decision to go for it on 4th down was the right call - the timeout on the 2pt conversion is another story, but let's not get into some of the garbage that is in this thread - one team had to lose the game, deal with it and enjoy it for what it was - the rare game that actually lives up to the hype.
Vince Young, late first round? HA! Top 3 pick, period. Mediocre passing? He's made meteoric improvements from his Freshman year till now - in fact he's a much more accomplished passer than Mike Vick was at this point in their careers.
A half-step faster? How about 2 and half steps faster? Did Mike Vick's speed get negated when he went to the NFL? Not even close - and Young is every bit that fast, and 5 inches taller to boot.
Ohio St was able to control Young's rushing after the first 2 series because their LB's are all NFL-caliber players (and AJ Hawk is a top 5 pick himself), but with their LB's staying closer to the line of scrimmage, Young beat them throwing the ball.
Reggie Bush was the focus of the Texas defense, and they limited his explosive plays to only a few, but he still had 170+ rushing & receiving yards combined - and yes, receiving yards count too, who is the idiot that said his receiving yards don't mean anything?
A third-down back in the NFL? Wow, buy a clue please. Is Tiki Barber a giant? Is Warrick Dunn? Admittedly he's not a move-the-pile RB, but my god he's the most fluid runner I've seen since OJ Simpson - he'll be an NFL star.
As for Pete Carroll holding Bush back because of what happened to McGahee, that is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The FACT of the matter is that Lendale White is also an NFL caliber RB, he's got 55 career rushing TD's, and he'd been able to run the ball for 5+ a pop until that carry..the Texas D made a play in a game where neither D really made too many plays.
Matt Leinhart was being showcased for the NFL? Go away with this garbage, he's a top 5 pick - and would have been the #1 pick had he come out last season.
3-peat bullsh%t? How is that? It was a legit attempt at winning three championships in a row - don't give me the "LSU was the champ 2 years ago" BS, they both were because the system doesn't always work. Arguing otherwise is petty and pointless.
It was a great game, Carroll's decision to go for it on 4th down was the right call - the timeout on the 2pt conversion is another story, but let's not get into some of the garbage that is in this thread - one team had to lose the game, deal with it and enjoy it for what it was - the rare game that actually lives up to the hype.
I was not impressed by that. But I don't know that he really meant to rub it in Texas' face, I think it's total stunned disbelief on his part. How would you feel if everyone you encountered on a daily basis was falling all over themselves telling you how great you were, and then you failed in the big Disney ending. This is someone who literally and figuratively has been felated by half the West Coast for the last 3 years. Reality bites. Hard.
Leinart, all the fanboys, and all the sportswriters in CA live their lives in a bubble. The problem is everyone else has had to put up with it for the last 3 years. Watching the disbelief as this comes crashing down on them is pure schadenfreude for the rest of the country, those of us who watch real football conferences like the SEC, Big 10, Big 12, ACC and see them beat each other to a pulp over the course of a season. The national nightmare is over. The truth is, USC played in 2 BCS championship games in the last 3 years. They won one and lost one. And that's what ESPN had a month long circle jerk over?
The OP here reads like something out of the Onion. This must be satire. Ummm, right, Carroll should have gone to Bush on that 4th down, who was stopped multiple times trying to turn the corner, instead of White, who absolutely shredded Texas down the stretch in the late 3rd/4th quarters. Hilarious how it turns to speculating on pro careers to relieve the pain. Yeah, that's going to change last night's score. Everyone in the NFL will catch up to Young's "half step,", but Bush will be seeing and playing the game like everyone else is in slow motion and making NFL players look like 2005 Fresno State defenders? hahhahahahaha, funny stuff
I have to disagree with your comment about conferences, Sludge...the Big 12, outside of Texas, was crappy this year too, and the vaunted Oklahoma teams from last year and the year before got their 4sses handed to them outside of their conference. The SEC and the Big 10 are the 2 best football conferences - in that order, then the ACC, Big 12, and Pac 10, probably in that order as well, but the gap from Big 12 to Pac 10 isn't a large one at all.
didn't nebraska from the craptastic big 12 north beat michigan this year? oh and missouri beat south carolina. big 12 north is crap. the south has always been decent although this year wasn't as good as its been previously (despite oklahoma beating oregon).
Bowl records would disagree with this statement:
BCS Highest Winning Percentages By Conference
Conference
Percentage (Record)
Mountain West 1.000 (1-0)
Southeastern .636 (7-4)
Pacific-10 .600 (6-4)
Big 10 .583 (7-5)
Big East .500 (4-4)
Big 12 .454 (5-6)
Atlantic Coast .125 (1-7)
Independents .000 (0-1)
2005/2006 Conference Standings
Name (Teams) Record
ACC (8) 5-3
Big 12 (8) 5-3
Pac-10 (5) 3-2
SEC (6) 3-3
C-USA (6) 3-3
Mountain West (4) 2-2
Independents (2) 1-1
MAC (2) 1-1
Big Ten (7) 3-4
WAC (3) 1-2
Big East (4) 1-3
Sun Belt (1) 0-1
2004/2005 Conference Standings
Name Record
Big 12 4-3
Pac 10 3-2
Conf USA 3-2
Big Ten 3-3
SEC 3-3
ACC 3-3
Mountain West 2-1
WAC 2-2
Big East 2-3
Mid-American 2-3
Independents 1-1
Sun Belt 0-2
I realize matchups are important in bowl games, but Pac 10 does very well in the bowl season. Over the last two years combined:
Big 12 .600
Pac 10 .600
ACC .571
SEC .500
Big 10 .462
Why you choose to exclude the Pac 10 from the real football conferences makes no sense.
You don't send the small fast guy up the middle on 4th and short.
You give the short yardage carries to the big bruiser.
Ever seen Jerome Bettis?
BeauJangles
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2001
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:thumbsup: Great post
First, VY will be a star in the NFL. He has the speed, the accuracy, and the throwing ability to be a true QB unlike Vick.
Second, I think Bush saw limited rushing yards because Texas so so overprepared for him. They seemed to know most of his moves, where he liked to go, etc. This is evident, IMO, from the fact that they were clueless about LenDale White who consistently surprised them with his speed and tackle-breaking.
Third, how can people really be talking about Bush giving up the Heisman? I still think he is equally as deserving of it as VY and this game doesn't downplay that one bit. Think of it this way (and this goes with #2) without Bush in the game to preocupy the minds of the Texas defense, would White really have rushed for 3 TDs, would Leinhart really have thrown for 350? Although he didn't touch the ball as often, he created the potential for those players to be phenominal because he was so consistently covered.
The numbers won't show it as much, but Bush had a huge impact on that game. And plus I have never, ever seen anyone move like Bush does. VY has some great moves too but he relies more on strength to get his yards, Bush just flat out makes people miss. Just look at his highlight real... his physical ability is just astounding.
You know I hate the term all purpose yards. Special teams just should not count for a single players yards. It is more of a team effort than anything else.
Texas' defensive team speed was the reason why reggie did not have the success that he had against ND or other games this season. The Texas D is just fast. They can catch him and O by the way, they can tackle. There was a reason they were number 1 in fewest yards after the catch against.
Yes, Vince would be a 1st round pic. The saints would take him in a heartbeat not to mention Houston thinking about it. However he hasn't declared yet, so chill on that. Vince doesn't have to rely only on his strength, but he is strong, very strong at his size and he does use that as a weapon. I have been to almost every UT college game he played in. He is much more elusive than most realize, and the USC defense could not scheme that. USC's defense did not have the team speed of Ohio State, and thus they had a very long night.
Oh and the Big 12 is better than most believe. Lets see....
In the first 10 years of the big 12, the national title has been won by
1997 Co champion Nebraska and Michigan
2000 Oklahoma
2006 Texas
So if your conference has 3 national titles from 3 different schools in 10 years.... They are pretty good.
Texas' defensive team speed was the reason why reggie did not have the success that he had against ND or other games this season. The Texas D is just fast. They can catch him and O by the way, they can tackle. There was a reason they were number 1 in fewest yards after the catch against.
Yes, Vince would be a 1st round pic. The saints would take him in a heartbeat not to mention Houston thinking about it. However he hasn't declared yet, so chill on that. Vince doesn't have to rely only on his strength, but he is strong, very strong at his size and he does use that as a weapon. I have been to almost every UT college game he played in. He is much more elusive than most realize, and the USC defense could not scheme that. USC's defense did not have the team speed of Ohio State, and thus they had a very long night.
Oh and the Big 12 is better than most believe. Lets see....
In the first 10 years of the big 12, the national title has been won by
1997 Co champion Nebraska and Michigan
2000 Oklahoma
2006 Texas
So if your conference has 3 national titles from 3 different schools in 10 years.... They are pretty good.
I think the whole game turned on Reggie Bush's inane attemp at a lateral. Usc was driving down the field, would have had great field position, and instead Texas takes the ball.
The momentum shifted, and that was that.
The momentum shifted, and that was that.
Oh great football poomba, I beseech thee:
Petty? Sorry, we don't really like someone else claiming the championship, signified by the championship trophy, which we won in the championship game.
See pic.
HendrixFan
Diamond Member
- Oct 18, 2001
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I see where VY finishes strong (carrying a pile), but most of the time he makes people miss. Ive watched him run for 3 years now, and he is so great at sidestepping defenders and making them miss. Bush does the same, but I dont think you can say one does it better than the other. Watch VY's runs against USC, especially from one of the end zone cameras. You can see the juking and sidestepping as people whiz by him. VY is one of the best I have seen at making people miss.
yea but Vince Young WILL NOT be able to do this in the NFL where the defenses are far smarter and more effective at tackling than USC's was. IMHO VY will not be as great a prospect as everyone thinks he will be. He's a good all-around QB but I don't really see him excelling in any one area. I think he will be decent in the NFL, but not a superstar like Manning or Mcnabb.
As for Reggie Bush, if you have watched this kid from his freshman year to now there is no doubt he is destined for NFL greatness. He has the raw physical talent, in-game intelligence, and passion for the game that will no doubt bring him good fortune in the NFL. The kid is absolutely amazing.
As for Reggie Bush, if you have watched this kid from his freshman year to now there is no doubt he is destined for NFL greatness. He has the raw physical talent, in-game intelligence, and passion for the game that will no doubt bring him good fortune in the NFL. The kid is absolutely amazing.
HendrixFan
Diamond Member
- Oct 18, 2001
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All those qualities can be found in VY. Raw physical talent, in game intelligence and a passion for the game. Remember that VY was the nation's leading passing efficiency QB.
If the USC game was your only time seeing him this year, then you didnt get to see him display his deep ball. All year long he had been hitting home runs with the deep ball (big part of his efficiency numbers - 9.72 YPA), piling up long TD after long TD. Carroll decided to make VY win with the short pass, not to let the deep ball kill his (relatively) slow secondary. The safeties played deep all game long, allowing the short passes and the scrambles. The LBs had to drop back into coverage in support of the safeties playing deep, giving him alot of running room (again, without the "homerun" threat - this time with the running game). VY picked apart the soft middle, completing 75% of his passes. Carroll's plan worked pretty well as UT stalled on a few drives when the offense killed itself (fumbles were a problem all year long). The fumbles that werent lost all were costly and stalled drives. USC's defense played a soft prevent to allow the UT offense to choke itself.
VY went against 3 future NFL LBers at OSU, and still got 80 yards rushing. No, I dont see him getting 200 yards on the ground in the NFL, but he certainly will be able to pick up a first down here or there. VYs real strength at the next level is his passing game. Simms is starting for an NFL playoff team, and VY is better at reading defenses and making throws than Simms was at this point.
Bush went up against at least 7 future NFL players on the Longhorn defense (5 DBs, a DT and a DE). Those speedy DBs were able to pretty much keep Bush contained. If Texas had some better LBs, he may have been held to half his rushing total.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/uscoffense.html
At this site they break down the Trojan offense (pre-Rose Bowl). You can see the bulk of the rushing yards (and YPC) come running off tackle to the outside. That outside corner can be killer when you have a speed advantage, and allows for big breakaways against slower defenses. The speed and sure tackling (compared to the college game) of the NFL will force Bush to run between tackles, something he is good at, but not great. Ive said all year long that Id take LenDale White over Bush, and I knew he'd pose more of a threat to our defense.
Edit: Go back and watch the INT that was ruled incomplete. Our LBer Kelson was step for step with Bush the entire time down the field. The announcer said that Bush usually burns the defender on that play. He couldnt outrun our LBer (albiet, our fastest one). He certainly couldnt outrun our secondary, nor will he outrun many NFL defenders.
http://espn.go.com/recruiting/s/2002/0506/1378709.html
According to this link he ran a 4.5 40yd dash coming out of high school. That is pretty much standard for a HB heading to the pros. His moves are what seperates him from most backs, but those stand out mostly in the open field. Id need to see more of him play (Ive seen four of his games), but he needs to run better between the tackles to have "greatness" in the NFL.
If the USC game was your only time seeing him this year, then you didnt get to see him display his deep ball. All year long he had been hitting home runs with the deep ball (big part of his efficiency numbers - 9.72 YPA), piling up long TD after long TD. Carroll decided to make VY win with the short pass, not to let the deep ball kill his (relatively) slow secondary. The safeties played deep all game long, allowing the short passes and the scrambles. The LBs had to drop back into coverage in support of the safeties playing deep, giving him alot of running room (again, without the "homerun" threat - this time with the running game). VY picked apart the soft middle, completing 75% of his passes. Carroll's plan worked pretty well as UT stalled on a few drives when the offense killed itself (fumbles were a problem all year long). The fumbles that werent lost all were costly and stalled drives. USC's defense played a soft prevent to allow the UT offense to choke itself.
VY went against 3 future NFL LBers at OSU, and still got 80 yards rushing. No, I dont see him getting 200 yards on the ground in the NFL, but he certainly will be able to pick up a first down here or there. VYs real strength at the next level is his passing game. Simms is starting for an NFL playoff team, and VY is better at reading defenses and making throws than Simms was at this point.
Bush went up against at least 7 future NFL players on the Longhorn defense (5 DBs, a DT and a DE). Those speedy DBs were able to pretty much keep Bush contained. If Texas had some better LBs, he may have been held to half his rushing total.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/uscoffense.html
At this site they break down the Trojan offense (pre-Rose Bowl). You can see the bulk of the rushing yards (and YPC) come running off tackle to the outside. That outside corner can be killer when you have a speed advantage, and allows for big breakaways against slower defenses. The speed and sure tackling (compared to the college game) of the NFL will force Bush to run between tackles, something he is good at, but not great. Ive said all year long that Id take LenDale White over Bush, and I knew he'd pose more of a threat to our defense.
Edit: Go back and watch the INT that was ruled incomplete. Our LBer Kelson was step for step with Bush the entire time down the field. The announcer said that Bush usually burns the defender on that play. He couldnt outrun our LBer (albiet, our fastest one). He certainly couldnt outrun our secondary, nor will he outrun many NFL defenders.
http://espn.go.com/recruiting/s/2002/0506/1378709.html
According to this link he ran a 4.5 40yd dash coming out of high school. That is pretty much standard for a HB heading to the pros. His moves are what seperates him from most backs, but those stand out mostly in the open field. Id need to see more of him play (Ive seen four of his games), but he needs to run better between the tackles to have "greatness" in the NFL.
BeauJangles
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2001
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I think Bush has demonstrated a lot of intelligence throughout his career and will have success in the NFL. Certainly he needs to be a better 'conventional' runner, but I don't think it will take long for him to learn the ropes. I agree, his speed isn't going to shock and awe the NFL but what I was saying before (when you quoted me) is that sure VY makes people miss and he does it very well. For me, though, Bush is nuts when it comes to open field moves. The way he contorts and shifts his body around is astounding. I think that, in the end, you are probably right that he and Young have nearly the same ability to make somebody miss, but Bush does it with a flair that is remarkable.
edit for clarity
edit for clarity
Not trying to be disrespectful, but the Pac 10 went 3-2 due to the fact that two of the wins were over BYU and Rutgers.
If the Big Ten had the bowl system set up to where they would have their fourth and fifth teams playing BYU and Rutgers, it would be sad. Hell, Minnesota and Northwestern would pound BYU/Rutgers.
Also, the Big Ten was two close (and very controversial) games away from going 5-3 and winning the Bowl Challenge Trophy. If Michigan and Iowa don't get bad calls against them in the ends of their bowl games, Michigan most likely wins and Iowa has a great shot at pulling a remarkable comeback.
That being said, congratulations to the SEC and Big XII for their wins this year.
HendrixFan
Diamond Member
- Oct 18, 2001
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Ill certainly agree with that. His balance is much better than Young, which is why he can make his jukes look so much more impressive. I think Young fell down twice on his runs the other night.
I dont think Ive seen anyone jump a tackle like he does, though I do think he may get drilled in the NFL doing that. His leaps into the end zone are special.
I dont think Ive seen anyone jump a tackle like he does, though I do think he may get drilled in the NFL doing that. His leaps into the end zone are special.
yes, the Big 12 has had some national championship teams........I'm talking about the status of the Big 12, right now.
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
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Yup, Reggie has standard back speed and doesn't run in between tackles well. Will he be decent? Yeah, probably a solid back but he's definitely overhyped. If he can learn to run between tackles, he will probably be your prototypical Brian Westbrook since he can catch/run well.
If you wanna see some real speed check out freshman Steve Slaton from WVU, he ran a 4.34 but may even be faster than that (judging how badly he burned UGA's All Am safety in the Sugar Bowl many times). Frosh QB Pat White also has the speed (4.45) to be better than VY on the ground, he can also throw w/ good efficiency as well.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/bowls05/news/story?id=2273311
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