Permit issues rant/request for advice

[ichy]

I bought my house two & a half years ago from a guy who'd just finished rehabbing the place. The rehab didn't involve any major structural or electrical work, but before I bought the house I insisted that the breaker panel be replaced (the old one was a model that was notorious for being unreliable.) About half a year after buying the house I also had the water heater replaced since the old one was 20+ years old.

Fast forward to today and because of low interest rates I decide to refinance my house. Everything is going fine up until the appraiser comes over. Obviously I wanted the appraisal to come in as high as possible since I wanted to maintain an 80% LTV ratio, so I mentioned that the house had a new breaker panel & water heater. Big mistake. In the appraisal report she mentioned that electrical and plumbing work had been done without building permits, and now this is turning into a huge hassle for me. The breaker panel was replaced before the place was mine, and like most normal people I didn't get a permit for a simple job like a hot water heater replacement. Has anyone had any experience with getting permits after the fact? The house is in Baltimore, MD in case it helps.

Now for the rant part, it's kind of fucked up that you need a permit to do minor work on your own house in this country. I get that if you're knocking down walls or something like that it could be an issue, but this was a frigging water heater (replaced by a licensed plumber) and a breaker panel (done by a licensed electrician.) It's complete BS that I theoretically need some ignorant city bureaucrat's approval for it.

 

[cubby1223]

It sucks.

Business I worked for was hit by lightening once, and the electrician and the town gov't argued back and forth whether a permit was needed or not to replace the meter. After a couple days of lost time for the business, it was agreed upon that a permit was needed - and then discovered that apparently the only guy in the town who can grant the permit was on vacation for the week, and no one else had the authority. So tack on another week the business is under.

 

[lupi]

Permit to change a water heater?

 

[rivan]

Now for the rant part, it's kind of fucked up that you need a permit to do minor work on your own house in this country.

The permit is there to make sure the final work is inspected and meets local building code. It is important and saves lives. Plumbers and electricians have tons of incentive to cut corners and the average homeowner doesn't know when one's been cut.

I agree it's annoying, but your beef should be with the contractors who did the work. They didn't obtain the necessary permits, and you may have a little leverage on them to make it right now. Letting the city know they're working without permits would probably not work out well for them.

That said, I think many basic things -like a water heater- can be done here by the homeowner without a permit. I could be wrong about that.

 

[jaha2000]

a breaker panel replacement if far from a minor electrical job. I had to pull a line permit from the power company for mine in order to replace the wire from the meter plug to the top of my mast.

While i think the permit system is total BS in most cases. It prevents "shadetree" repair guys from making all of our home insurance rates go up

 

[z1ggy]

I;m not sure about MD, but I know in my local town, I think if you get "caught" with out a permit for work that needed one, you can claim ignorance, basically. I'm not sure how this all works, if they charge you some fee and make you get a permit and have it inspected again or something, but the way it was told to me was, first time offenders get a slap on the wrist.

Your contractor should have gotten the permit out with the city themselves...Any compitent company would do this. If they didn't I would call them and perhaps even call BBB.

 

[slsmnaz]

I just ran into one when I had my kitchen redone. They found an issue with the plumbing in a bathroom that was unrelated to my kitchen but busted me for it anyway. Turns out the "handyman" that had the house before me wasn't quite so handy (found lots of fun stuff once the kitchen was gutted)

I got the plumber to fix the issue while still working on the kitchen, went down and applied for the permit as the homeowner and got the inspection done pretty easily. I believe it was about $60 for the permit

 

[ichy]

The permit is there to make sure the final work is inspected and meets local building code. It is important and saves lives. Plumbers and electricians have tons of incentive to cut corners and the average homeowner doesn't know when one's been cut.

For major work I agree with you, but replacing a water heater? How many lives have actually been saved by permits for water heater work?

 

[slag]

Needing a permit to replace a water heater is total bullshit. Its not an improvement, it is replacing a like item for like item.

I'd tell them to pound sand, but it won't do any good. Laws/codes like this need to be changed.

 

[ichy]

While i think the permit system is total BS in most cases. It prevents "shadetree" repair guys from making all of our home insurance rates go up

I kind of agree, but for relatively common work like a water heater replacement or a new breaker panel it ought to be enough to show that the work was done by a licensed plumber or electrician. What's the point of licensing those trades if we don't trust them to do basic work?

 

[ichy]

I'd tell them to pound sand, but it won't do any good.

It's the mortgage company that suddenly cares. Telling them to pound sand would result in me not getting the refi, and losing $250/month in savings.

Apparently there's some piece of paperwork that I might have gotten when I closed that would resolve all this. If not I'm just going to have to go to the city for permits. With the breaker panel I can quite legitimately say that it was done before I owned the house, and with the water heater I'll just claim ignorance. I hired a licensed plumber after all, not some illegal mexican on the street corner.

 

[Hoober]

Call the building department and check with them to see if you even need to pull a permit to replace a water heater.

The breaker panel I can see. That's pretty major electrical work that should be permitted/inspected.

 

[ichy]

Call the building department and check with them to see if you even need to pull a permit to replace a water heater.

I already checked the rules and technically you do. In real life almost no one does it, but if you follow the letter of the law you should.

 

[Hoober]

I already checked the rules and technically you do. In real life almost no one does it, but if you follow the letter of the law you should.

Yeah.... like others have said, I get the point of permits and inspections, but for a water heater replacement? That's Baltimore wanting to collect their slice of the pie.

 

[jaha2000]

Be it electric or gas, there are hazards for both. Not properly gluing gas line joints, having a leaky water joint on an electric heater.

I sort of disagree with you. I may be wrong about this, but i believe a lot of the basis for permits deals with life/death. For example, you install your own gas water heater. You dont hook up the vent pipe properly and vent CO into your basement.

 

[spacejamz]

In my city, you need to get a $60 permit for any fencework, even just replacing one fence post. The only exception is if you are replacing a picket with the exact same size/material as the original one...From the website:

Permit Applications
All new fencing and all work on existing fences require a permit. Exception: Pickets may
be replaced without obtaining a permit if the new pickets are of the same material, size,
and height as those being replaced.


My original fence was built with 21 wooden 2x3 posts in 2003. Most of them have rotted through and I had to replace several 2 years ago because the wind had blown them down. I am in the process of replacing the original posts with metal ones but only doing a few at a time. So far 15 are done. Since all of this work cannot be seen from the outside, I haven't gotten a permit for any of it.

However, once I get the posts done, I will replace the rails and all of the pickets and will get a permit when I start that. The permit is only valid for 60 days and you can request one 30 day extension...I should be able to replace everything in this time period. But yeah, needing a permit for fence work is BS...

 

[ichy]

Be it electric or gas, there are hazards for both. Not properly gluing gas line joints, having a leaky water joint on an electric heater.

I sort of disagree with you. I may be wrong about this, but i believe a lot of the basis for permits deals with life/death. For example, you install your own gas water heater. You dont hook up the vent pipe properly and vent CO into your basement.

How many people have actually died from screwed up water heater installations?

 

[jaha2000]

How many people have actually died from screwed up water heater installations?

Ever watch mythbusters?

Chances of it happening are obviously nothing. Google says it happens however. Dont get me wrong, i am not defending the system, for competent people its insane that you need a permit to wipe your own butt. HOWEVER, the system is not in place to protect competent people, its in place to protect people that sue mcdonalds cause the coffee they got burned them.

 

[ichy]

IMO we should be able to assume that a licensed plumber is capable of replacing a water heater. That's pretty much the most basic work that they do.

 

[Linflas]

Good luck. After a brush with the endless bureaucracy that Maryland seems to love I am letting a house sit empty until we can dump it rather than fix it up and rent it. The endless maze of regulations, permits, and inspections required are amazing.

 

[Gibson486]

Ummm..breaker panel replacement is a pretty major thing...

With electrical, usually, you cannot get away with simple upgrades. When you upgrade one thing, you usually have to upgrade the whole thing because EVERYTHING has to be up to code now since you are repairing it. That is why a permit is required. As for the water heater, they are giving you a hard time because you did not do a permit for the electrical.

unfortunately, the worst case scenario is gonna be hiring someone (IE engineer) to verify that the work done right. Also, that means getting someone to verify that everything is up to code now. That is gonna suck, especially if you have an old house.

 

[Gibson486]

Good luck. After a brush with the endless bureaucracy that Maryland seems to love I am letting a house sit empty until we can dump it rather than fix it up and rent it. The endless maze of regulations, permits, and inspections required are amazing.

Same in MA. My mother owns an apartment building. They keep saying they do not want the property empty, but the list of demands the city wants just keep growing. i finally got involved in it and finally told them, "if you want this property to be a a dumping ground for syringes and drugs, then keep up with the dumb demands, otherwise, let us rent it out." They finally approved everything a month ago....

 

[ichy]

Good luck. After a brush with the endless bureaucracy that Maryland seems to love I am letting a house sit empty until we can dump it rather than fix it up and rent it. The endless maze of regulations, permits, and inspections required are amazing.

Thankfully I'm not trying to rent the place out, I'm just trying to get it through the refinancing process.

What drives me nuts is that I was able to get a mortgage on the place without any problems, but not two yeasr later they're making such a stink about the refi

 

[ichy]

Ummm..breaker panel replacement is a pretty major thing...

With electrical, usually, you cannot get away with simple upgrades. When you upgrade one thing, you usually have to upgrade the whole thing because EVERYTHING has to be up to code now since you are repairing it. That is why a permit is required. As for the water heater, they are giving you a hard time because you did not do a permit for the electrical.

Thank god I was given the receipt for all of the electrical work (the panel was replaced a couple of weeks before I closed on the house.)

 

[BoomerD]

My city requires a permit for water heater replacement. It's about $125...I'm going to replace mine shortly. My neighbor and I will do the work...without a permit. I MIGHT pull the permit afterwards just to cover my ass with my homeowner's insurance.