Perfect Example of Why a Bailout is BS!

[GTaudiophile]

You want to give $15 Billion to a company that calls this crap progress?

This isn't progress.

This is more proof that these companies are a complete failure and need to die...and allow the market/supply & demand to run its course.

Edit: Picture says it all.

 

[Arkaign]

All hyperbole aside, I've found recent GM and Ford products to be quite decent, aside from the occasional lemon. One only needs to look at the poster here with a failed Accord engine with under 50k miles to understand that even outstanding groups like Honda can mess up.

I'm not thrilled about a bailout, but I'm not sure the general economy would be a very livable place to try to get by in if unemployment jumped 5-10% almost immediately.

 

[woodie1]

That edmunds article sure makes one wonder. I know around here Saturn is discounting their new cars like crazy. Guess the no-haggle pricing idea didn't pan out.

 

[evident]

thats goes to show again that initial quality metrics are useless

 

[Squisher]

I don't understand. You are saying that because there was an initial problem with the car that the dealership fixed up to the expectations of the testers this is a reason to not buy the car?

I guess foreign car makers don't even have service departments because their cars never break. Or, there isn't any reason to expect any new car to have any faults. Even the best carmakers at average have 1.5 complaints per 100 cars in the first 90 days. Detroit usually comes in at around 1.8 to 2.2.

Saturn service has consistently outperformed foreign carmakers in service satisfaction.

 

[ElFenix]

nissan didn't bother fixing the issue with my car clunking and making whirring sounds. 'we can't replicate your problem'

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: Squisher
I don't understand. You are saying that because there was an initial problem with the car that the dealership fixed up to the expectations of the testers this is a reason to not buy the car?

I guess foreign car makers don't even have service departments because their cars never break. Or, there isn't any reason to expect any new car to have any faults. Even the best carmakers at average have 1.5 complaints per 100 cars in the first 90 days. Detroit usually comes in at around 1.8 to 2.2.

Saturn service has consistently outperformed foreign carmakers in service satisfaction.

You know GTaudiophile has a point, this happens to ALL domestics...............I swear, true story.:disgust:

 

[Demon-Xanth]

So I take it Car and Driver's long term test of an Audi that featured replacing an $8000 transmission was a fluke?

 

[cheesehead]

GM makes some crappy cars. In my opinion, the Aura is one of them.

The new Malibu, however, appears to be both bigger and better - and, considering that it's 99% mechanically identical to the Opel Insignia, it should be quite reliable as well. It's even pretty efficient, too - I've heard that a careful driver can weasel 32MPG out of the V6 version on the highway.

On the subject of Ford, I might point out that they still have (though they're trying to sell it - why?) a controlling stake in Mazda, who in turn make the Miata and Mazda3 - two of my favorite cars. The Mazda6 is good too - and you can get one that was built in the U.S. to boot. Ford also has the (sadly not sold in the U.S.) Mondeo, which is a strong competitor for the Altima and Accord, and the soon-to-be-imported Transit, which is by far the best and most efficient way to move large amounts of stuff from A to B.

Chrysler == fail. The only thing they make that seems to be highly competitive is the Sprinter van, which is actually just a rebadged Mercedes Benz, built in Germany.

 

[alphatarget1]

I have never had problems driving domestic rentals... was pretty impressed with the 2006+ impalas.

I don't know what the probability of getting a bad new car vs. one that was put together right, but my cousin's 2006 Camry had to have the strut replaced (under warranty) because it was leaking, and it was out of alignment within like 15k miles. Maybe they're just not lucky.

And I would buy a domestic over any European trash any day of the week if I wanted reliable transportation (not counting Japanese automakers of course)

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
GM makes some crappy cars. In my opinion, the Aura is one of them.

The new Malibu, however, appears to be both bigger and better - and, considering that it's 99% mechanically identical to the Opel Insignia, it should be quite reliable as well. It's even pretty efficient, too - I've heard that a careful driver can weasel 32MPG out of the V6 version on the highway.

On the subject of Ford, I might point out that they still have (though they're trying to sell it - why?) a controlling stake in Mazda, who in turn make the Miata and Mazda3 - two of my favorite cars. The Mazda6 is good too - and you can get one that was built in the U.S. to boot. Ford also has the (sadly not sold in the U.S.) Mondeo, which is a strong competitor for the Altima and Accord, and the soon-to-be-imported Transit, which is by far the best and most efficient way to move large amounts of stuff from A to B.

Chrysler == fail. The only thing they make that seems to be highly competitive is the Sprinter van, which is actually just a rebadged Mercedes Benz, built in Germany.

What are you talking about? The new Malibu has more to do with the Aura than the Insigina. The Insignia is riding on Epsilon II, while the Malibu and the Aura are still on Epsilon I. I would say the Malibu has very little in common with the Insignia.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
You want to give $15 Billion to a company that calls this crap progress?

This isn't progress.

This is more proof that these companies are a complete failure and need to die...and allow the market/supply & demand to run its course.

Edit: Picture says it all.

Do you realize how stupid you sound?

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: Ktulu
What are you talking about? The new Malibu has more to do with the Aura than the Insigina. The Insignia is riding on Epsilon II, while the Malibu and the Aura are still on Epsilon I. I would say the Malibu has very little in common with the Insignia.

The Aura and Malibu are a perfect example of how perception and bias can influence people's opinions. The Aura and Malibu are nearly identical through and through, yet Malibu got accolades it's sibling never did and won, or was more competitive with, the Camry, Accord, and Altima in nearly ever comparison test it was in - despite being the same fucking car!

The Aura may have won NA car of the year, but magazine reviews were generally more favorable to the Malibu when comparing it to others in the class.

About the long term test, no car should have those kind of issues so early in its life. However the trim pieces are an annoyance at worst, not even a concern. The issue with the steering rack is dreadful, though. Cheers to the dealership for excellent service. A shame they are no longer in business. I guess you need to bend people over the table to run a successful dealership nowadays.

 

[Pariah]

The Big 3 are asking for loans, which aren't bailouts. They're currently asking for $34 billion. That's sounds like a lot, but let's not forget that the banking industry just got at least a $700 billion infusion of funds. What the big 3 are asking for is less than 5% of what the banking industry got, and provided they survive, the money will get paid back.

 

[kevman]

The only reason I am pulling for GM. If they make it, I will own one of these real soon.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
GM makes some crappy cars. In my opinion, the Aura is one of them.

The new Malibu, however, appears to be both bigger and better - and, considering that it's 99% mechanically identical to the Opel Insignia, it should be quite reliable as well. It's even pretty efficient, too - I've heard that a careful driver can weasel 32MPG out of the V6 version on the highway.

On the subject of Ford, I might point out that they still have (though they're trying to sell it - why?) a controlling stake in Mazda, who in turn make the Miata and Mazda3 - two of my favorite cars. The Mazda6 is good too - and you can get one that was built in the U.S. to boot. Ford also has the (sadly not sold in the U.S.) Mondeo, which is a strong competitor for the Altima and Accord, and the soon-to-be-imported Transit, which is by far the best and most efficient way to move large amounts of stuff from A to B.

Chrysler == fail. The only thing they make that seems to be highly competitive is the Sprinter van, which is actually just a rebadged Mercedes Benz, built in Germany.

Uh, the Malibu and the Aura are the exact same car. Just different sheet metal. People really amaze me sometimes. Maybe it's the tailights you don't like, the tires?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

From Car and Driver's long term tests:

Subaru STI:

Our Subaru was living a trouble-free life until nearly everyone who drove the car began to report that the transmission was popping out of second gear. (A quick Google search showed that we weren?t the only ones to experience this problem.) In the STI went to the local dealership, where?of course?the car refused to repeat its misbehavior. After a couple of weeks, we self-diagnosed the problem as occurring during light acceleration while traveling between 10 and 20 mph and took the car back to the dealer, who now recognized our issue. The service rep decided to install a new transmission?at just 16,745 miles!?as well as a new clutch, pressure plate, and throw-out bearing, a $7000 job thankfully covered under warranty. Afterward, the dealer said that another option was simply to crack the gearbox open and repair it at a cost of $1000; why they didn?t do this isn?t totally clear.

Jaguar XK Convertible

Luckily, the staff seems to be getting younger, so the old and tired jokes about British cars and the Prince of Darkness seem to be receding. Unfortunately, the Jag did its best to revive the gags with a litany of minor electronic glitches. The car?s smart key worked fine most of the time, but Bedard found that when the key fob was in his pocket, the car wouldn?t always start. Taking the key out and waving it in front of the dashboard or docking the key in its slot generally woke it up. At an unscheduled service stop at 15,937 miles, a faulty starter button was diagnosed and replaced, but the problem persisted during the car?s time with us.

At that same visit to the dealer, a glowing check-engine light was rectified by replacing a pinched vacuum hose. Jaguar of Troy in metro Detroit also addressed our complaints about the windows failing to seal properly, or index, after the doors were closed, a problem the service department had tried to fix at the 10,000-mile service by tinkering with the electrics.

This time, the windows were adjusted, but at about 17,000 miles, Austin reported that the driver?s seat stopped working, and the auto-up function for the passenger?s window would raise the glass all the way and then drop it back down?which wasn?t supposed to happen. Later on, at the 40,000-mile mark, the driver?s door wouldn?t always shut, and the window wouldn?t go down in cold weather. The dealer relubricated the seals with silicone spray, which fixed the window, but the door problem persisted.

All told, three of the four scheduled service visits?the first one was complimentary?at 10,000-mile intervals cost $967. At 20,000 miles, we had a new front wheel fitted because the rim had been bent, and we then couldn?t get the tire to seat properly. The wheel alone cost $1005. We had two unscheduled service visits, both free, plus the antenna repair.

When the car went back to Jaguar, with 40,068 miles of experience on the odometer, it still felt as good to drive, still looked lovely, and didn?t have any squeaks or rattles. With that in mind, it?s a pity it suffered so many niggling problems that would have severely tested our patience had we paid with our own money.

Mercedes GL320

Other than a free initial service anytime between the first 1000 and 3000 miles, the schedule of maintenance began at 10,000 miles and thereafter at every 10K. At that first scheduled visit, the dealer replaced nine quarts of synthetic oil ($53) and the oil filter ($30), performed various inspections, and handed us a bill for $262. The right-side power mirror, which had stopped working, was fixed under warranty.

We made a dealer stop at 17,738 miles, after several drivers reported that the Keyless Go system was no longer unlocking the driver?s door with the touch of the handle. The dealer diagnosed a failed sensor in the door and ordered a spare from Germany.

At the 20,000-mile service, that sensor was replaced (under warranty) along with all three wiper blades ($96). We got an oil change, a more rigorous round of inspections, and a bill for $480.

Soon thereafter, our luxury diesel SUV went back to the dealer because the power-operated tailgate wouldn?t close all the way and a number of noises in the luggage area were becoming bothersome. Both problems were fixed under warranty.

A third routine service at 30,897 cost $263. The final stop came at 41,116 miles and was a whopping $1244, which included the more rigorous inspections we?d experienced at the 20K mark, along with replacing the fuel filter ($105) and the air filter ($151) and changing the transmission fluid and filter ($220).

Other than the failed door sensor and the problem with the power tailgate, the GL had only one other glitch. It mysteriously neglected to start toward the end of its time with us. The engine cranked but wouldn?t fire in several attempts over the course of an hour. But with a tow truck on its way, the GL suddenly started and never repeated this curious behavior.

All told, service was $2115?about 10 times the $210 our long-term Cadillac Escalade [November 2007] cost us. The GL also went through $1084 of tires and wipers in its 40,000 miles, whereas the Cadillac went the distance on the originals.

So should all those companies die because of the problems reviewers found?

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

So should all those companies die because of the problems reviewers found?

You've got to realize that the reviewers want to look at the new models. First year = issues. I'd never buy a first year of a major redesign because you're basically signing up to be a test subject.

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
From Car and Driver's long term tests:

Subaru STI:

Our Subaru was living a trouble-free life until nearly everyone who drove the car began to report that the transmission was popping out of second gear. (A quick Google search showed that we weren?t the only ones to experience this problem.) In the STI went to the local dealership, where?of course?the car refused to repeat its misbehavior. After a couple of weeks, we self-diagnosed the problem as occurring during light acceleration while traveling between 10 and 20 mph and took the car back to the dealer, who now recognized our issue. The service rep decided to install a new transmission?at just 16,745 miles!?as well as a new clutch, pressure plate, and throw-out bearing, a $7000 job thankfully covered under warranty. Afterward, the dealer said that another option was simply to crack the gearbox open and repair it at a cost of $1000; why they didn?t do this isn?t totally clear.

Jaguar XK Convertible

Luckily, the staff seems to be getting younger, so the old and tired jokes about British cars and the Prince of Darkness seem to be receding. Unfortunately, the Jag did its best to revive the gags with a litany of minor electronic glitches. The car?s smart key worked fine most of the time, but Bedard found that when the key fob was in his pocket, the car wouldn?t always start. Taking the key out and waving it in front of the dashboard or docking the key in its slot generally woke it up. At an unscheduled service stop at 15,937 miles, a faulty starter button was diagnosed and replaced, but the problem persisted during the car?s time with us.

At that same visit to the dealer, a glowing check-engine light was rectified by replacing a pinched vacuum hose. Jaguar of Troy in metro Detroit also addressed our complaints about the windows failing to seal properly, or index, after the doors were closed, a problem the service department had tried to fix at the 10,000-mile service by tinkering with the electrics.

This time, the windows were adjusted, but at about 17,000 miles, Austin reported that the driver?s seat stopped working, and the auto-up function for the passenger?s window would raise the glass all the way and then drop it back down?which wasn?t supposed to happen. Later on, at the 40,000-mile mark, the driver?s door wouldn?t always shut, and the window wouldn?t go down in cold weather. The dealer relubricated the seals with silicone spray, which fixed the window, but the door problem persisted.

All told, three of the four scheduled service visits?the first one was complimentary?at 10,000-mile intervals cost $967. At 20,000 miles, we had a new front wheel fitted because the rim had been bent, and we then couldn?t get the tire to seat properly. The wheel alone cost $1005. We had two unscheduled service visits, both free, plus the antenna repair.

When the car went back to Jaguar, with 40,068 miles of experience on the odometer, it still felt as good to drive, still looked lovely, and didn?t have any squeaks or rattles. With that in mind, it?s a pity it suffered so many niggling problems that would have severely tested our patience had we paid with our own money.

Mercedes GL320

Other than a free initial service anytime between the first 1000 and 3000 miles, the schedule of maintenance began at 10,000 miles and thereafter at every 10K. At that first scheduled visit, the dealer replaced nine quarts of synthetic oil ($53) and the oil filter ($30), performed various inspections, and handed us a bill for $262. The right-side power mirror, which had stopped working, was fixed under warranty.

We made a dealer stop at 17,738 miles, after several drivers reported that the Keyless Go system was no longer unlocking the driver?s door with the touch of the handle. The dealer diagnosed a failed sensor in the door and ordered a spare from Germany.

At the 20,000-mile service, that sensor was replaced (under warranty) along with all three wiper blades ($96). We got an oil change, a more rigorous round of inspections, and a bill for $480.

Soon thereafter, our luxury diesel SUV went back to the dealer because the power-operated tailgate wouldn?t close all the way and a number of noises in the luggage area were becoming bothersome. Both problems were fixed under warranty.

A third routine service at 30,897 cost $263. The final stop came at 41,116 miles and was a whopping $1244, which included the more rigorous inspections we?d experienced at the 20K mark, along with replacing the fuel filter ($105) and the air filter ($151) and changing the transmission fluid and filter ($220).

Other than the failed door sensor and the problem with the power tailgate, the GL had only one other glitch. It mysteriously neglected to start toward the end of its time with us. The engine cranked but wouldn?t fire in several attempts over the course of an hour. But with a tow truck on its way, the GL suddenly started and never repeated this curious behavior.

All told, service was $2115?about 10 times the $210 our long-term Cadillac Escalade [November 2007] cost us. The GL also went through $1084 of tires and wipers in its 40,000 miles, whereas the Cadillac went the distance on the originals.

So should all those companies die because of the problems reviewers found?

Are any of these companies asking Congress for a huge bailout?
If so, then yes, let them die.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Uh, the Malibu and the Aura are the exact same car. Just different sheet metal. People really amaze me sometimes. Maybe it's the tailights you don't like, the tires?

Oops. I got the Insignia (new and surprisingly good) mixed up with the Signum (old and not as good.)


Which raises the question of why in the bloody blazes GM can't get their asses in gear and sell us an Epsilon II based Malibu.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
From Car and Driver's long term tests:
<bunch of new-car problems>

I don't get it. All my life I've driven 80s Japanese cars, and while I've had occasional problems, these are on decades-old cars with hundreds of thousands of miles on the odometer.

Frankly, if I was driving that new of a car and I had ANY problems whatsoever, I'd be PO'd. What's the deal, can't companies build a reliable car anymore? All these electronic gadgets and gizmos seem to fail all the time...cars are becoming like helicopters, with lots of interdependent parts ensuring an expensive breakdown at regular intervals.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
From Car and Driver's long term tests:
<bunch of new-car problems>

I don't get it. All my life I've driven 80s Japanese cars, and while I've had occasional problems, these are on decades-old cars with hundreds of thousands of miles on the odometer.

Frankly, if I was driving that new of a car and I had ANY problems whatsoever, I'd be PO'd. What's the deal, can't companies build a reliable car anymore? All these electronic gadgets and gizmos seem to fail all the time...cars are becoming like helicopters, with lots of interdependent parts ensuring an expensive breakdown at regular intervals.

The idea of a "car is transportation" got lost in the race to build the world's biggest/best living room with wheels on it. GPS used to be a "wouldn't it be cool if it were feasable" to "I must have or I can't live!" thing. The whole "keep the key in your pocket" thing to me just seems like more of a liability than an asset. My car doesn't start unless I stick the key in. It won't accidentally start, the doors won't accidentally lock or unlock, it just can't happen. If someone DOES build a car stripped down people look at it and call it a POS, or the manufacturers raise the sticker price (I'm looking at you Ferrari and Porsche!) and call it a special edition.

edit:
Japanese cars built their reputation building simple reliable cars, and are losing it building the complex cars that they were competing against.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
From Car and Driver's long term tests:
<bunch of new-car problems>

I don't get it. All my life I've driven 80s Japanese cars, and while I've had occasional problems, these are on decades-old cars with hundreds of thousands of miles on the odometer.

Frankly, if I was driving that new of a car and I had ANY problems whatsoever, I'd be PO'd. What's the deal, can't companies build a reliable car anymore? All these electronic gadgets and gizmos seem to fail all the time...cars are becoming like helicopters, with lots of interdependent parts ensuring an expensive breakdown at regular intervals.

The idea of a "car is transportation" got lost in the race to build the world's biggest/best living room with wheels on it. GPS used to be a "wouldn't it be cool if it were feasable" to "I must have or I can't live!" thing. The whole "keep the key in your pocket" thing to me just seems like more of a liability than an asset. My car doesn't start unless I stick the key in. It won't accidentally start, the doors won't accidentally lock or unlock, it just can't happen. If someone DOES build a car stripped down people look at it and call it a POS, or the manufacturers raise the sticker price (I'm looking at you Ferrari and Porsche!) and call it a special edition.

edit:
Japanese cars built their reputation building simple reliable cars, and are losing it building the complex cars that they were competing against.

I agree. I like my cars with relatively few options. I'm willing to pay a bit more for a better drivetrain but it usually involves getting a package that includes all this garbage that I don't want.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: boomerang

Uh, the Malibu and the Aura are the exact same car. Just different sheet metal. People really amaze me sometimes. Maybe it's the tailights you don't like, the tires?

Oops. I got the Insignia (new and surprisingly good) mixed up with the Signum (old and not as good.)


Which raises the question of why in the bloody blazes GM can't get their asses in gear and sell us an Epsilon II based Malibu.

The first epsilon II car in the U.S. will be the 2010 Buick Lacrosse (more). Keep in mind the Malibu beat the Insignia to market by nearly a year. Evidentally the platform wasn't ready.

I agree though the Malibu should have been on epsilon II. They should have started development on it sooner.

 

[Chunkee]

just get a ford fusion instead of the malibu..much nicer car IMO...esp the new ones...making good deals actually also..highly rated, by both consumers and pro critics...go blue oval