Perception is reality or Reality is reality???

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,463
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Whether we're talking about terrorists, global warming, the economy, or Anna Nichole.........

How do you think the world TRULY reacts????

(Could probably have a separate poll for "individual reactions", "U.S. reactions" and "Global reactions", but I figure most of the world gets news on TV these days so I think it can safely be said "the world").

Is what you "perceive to be real" the world's true reality???

Or is the "physical reality" of the world, the true reality???
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
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Perception is reality. It doesn't matter whether the world is made up of atoms or of bits on a computer, all that matters is what we sense (feel, touch, see, etc...)
 

TecHNooB

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
7,460
1
76
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Perception is reality. It doesn't matter whether the world is made up of atoms or of bits on a computer, all that matters is what we sense (feel, touch, see, etc...)

 

f4phantom2500

Platinum Member
Dec 3, 2006
2,284
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Originally posted by: blackllotus
Perception is reality. It doesn't matter whether the world is made up of atoms or of bits on a computer, all that matters is what we sense (feel, touch, see, etc...)

He didn't ask what matters, he asked what's real. If you eat fast food that had ebola or something it doesn't matter that you thought nothing was wrong with it because now you're sick. However, there are some instances in which I would agree. People believed that the sun revolved around the earth, and although we now know that the earth really revolves around the sun, it didn't really matter one way or the other to them, and it really doesn't make a difference to us now. Reality is reality, but whether or not our perception is correct really doesn't make a difference, it just depends on how the difference would affect us. I do think, though, that our perceptions can affect reality. To continue with the fast food example, let's say initially nobody knew it had ebola (perception) but a lot of people were getting sick eating it (reality). So far, our perception is incorrect and the people are directly affected by the reality. Eventually, people catch on and realize that the food has ebola (change in perception), and do something about it, closing down the restaurant or whatever (reality). So, in this case, our change in perception lead us to do something about the reality of the situation.

I hope that makes sense.
 

effowe

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2004
6,021
18
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Perception (from your point of view) is reality, to you. But reality will always be reality, what other people perceive will not change true reality.
 

iamaelephant

Diamond Member
Jul 25, 2004
3,816
1
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Reality is reality. Relativism (that BS new-age attitude that we create the world by perceiving) is total crap and can be completely disproved in a number of logical ways. There is a separate, external reality that is not linked in any way to our consciousness or awareness of the world. "What the !@#$ do We Know" is a load of crap, mmkay?
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
Originally posted by: iamaelephant
Reality is reality. Relativism (that BS new-age attitude that we create the world by perceiving) is total crap and can be completely disproved in a number of logical ways.
No, it can't. Solipsism is an intractable problem because there are no phenomena that are incongruent with it.

There is a separate, external reality that is not linked in any way to our consciousness or awareness of the world. "What the !@#$ do We Know" is a load of crap, mmkay?
This is merely a postulate.
 

iamaelephant

Diamond Member
Jul 25, 2004
3,816
1
81
Originally posted by: Garth
Originally posted by: iamaelephant
Reality is reality. Relativism (that BS new-age attitude that we create the world by perceiving) is total crap and can be completely disproved in a number of logical ways.
No, it can't. Solipsism is an intractable problem because there are no phenomena that are incongruent with it.

There is a separate, external reality that is not linked in any way to our consciousness or awareness of the world. "What the !@#$ do We Know" is a load of crap, mmkay?
This is merely a postulate.

There is at least one extremely solid argument against solipsism that I know. It would take me a long time to type it out and I'm heading out soon, but if this thread is still around when I get back I will post it. It is definitive and logically defeats relativism completely and absolutely.
 

RaistlinZ

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 2001
7,629
10
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Originally posted by: f4phantom2500
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Perception is reality. It doesn't matter whether the world is made up of atoms or of bits on a computer, all that matters is what we sense (feel, touch, see, etc...)

He didn't ask what matters, he asked what's real. If you eat fast food that had ebola or something it doesn't matter that you thought nothing was wrong with it because now you're sick. However, there are some instances in which I would agree. People believed that the sun revolved around the earth, and although we now know that the earth really revolves around the sun, it didn't really matter one way or the other to them, and it really doesn't make a difference to us now. Reality is reality, but whether or not our perception is correct really doesn't make a difference, it just depends on how the difference would affect us. I do think, though, that our perceptions can affect reality. To continue with the fast food example, let's say initially nobody knew it had ebola (perception) but a lot of people were getting sick eating it (reality). So far, our perception is incorrect and the people are directly affected by the reality. Eventually, people catch on and realize that the food has ebola (change in perception), and do something about it, closing down the restaurant or whatever (reality). So, in this case, our change in perception lead us to do something about the reality of the situation.

I hope that makes sense.

Bravo! Well-explained. ;) Relativist thinkers really get on my nerves. Here's an oldie for ya... If a tree falls in a forest and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Answer: Yes, you idiot. Of course it does. :roll:
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
Originally posted by: iamaelephant
Originally posted by: Garth
Originally posted by: iamaelephant
Reality is reality. Relativism (that BS new-age attitude that we create the world by perceiving) is total crap and can be completely disproved in a number of logical ways.
No, it can't. Solipsism is an intractable problem because there are no phenomena that are incongruent with it.

There is a separate, external reality that is not linked in any way to our consciousness or awareness of the world. "What the !@#$ do We Know" is a load of crap, mmkay?
This is merely a postulate.

There is at least one extremely solid argument against solipsism that I know. It would take me a long time to type it out and I'm heading out soon, but if this thread is still around when I get back I will post it. It is definitive and logically defeats relativism completely and absolutely.
Please note that the idea that there does not exist a separate reality apart from the individual consciousness is called Solipsism -- not relativism -- and I assure you it is logically irrefutable. It is, because there are no necessarily true or false propositions in Solipsism. You cannot falsify it via reductio, therefore, nor could you falsify it empirically.

For that matter, Solipsism, like Materialism, Dualism, Idealism, etc. are philosophies of reality. You seem to think you can prove something about reality strictly through logic which will falsify Solipsism. If that is what you think you are wrong. Logic doesn't dictate reality, so your argument cannot succeed in falsifying or verifying any philosophy of reality. At most you can demonstrate something about the consistency of your definitions, but that's all.
 

iamaelephant

Diamond Member
Jul 25, 2004
3,816
1
81
Originally posted by: Garth
Originally posted by: iamaelephant
Originally posted by: Garth
Originally posted by: iamaelephant
Reality is reality. Relativism (that BS new-age attitude that we create the world by perceiving) is total crap and can be completely disproved in a number of logical ways.
No, it can't. Solipsism is an intractable problem because there are no phenomena that are incongruent with it.

There is a separate, external reality that is not linked in any way to our consciousness or awareness of the world. "What the !@#$ do We Know" is a load of crap, mmkay?
This is merely a postulate.

There is at least one extremely solid argument against solipsism that I know. It would take me a long time to type it out and I'm heading out soon, but if this thread is still around when I get back I will post it. It is definitive and logically defeats relativism completely and absolutely.
Please note that the idea that there does not exist a separate reality apart from the individual consciousness is called Solipsism -- not relativism -- and I assure you it is logically irrefutable. It is, because there are no necessarily true or false propositions in Solipsism. You cannot falsify it via reductio, therefore, nor could you falsify it empirically.

The bolded part is the key to how it is refuted. I still don't have the time to write a full post but I hope to soon.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
Originally posted by: iamaelephant
Originally posted by: Garth
Originally posted by: iamaelephant
Originally posted by: Garth
Originally posted by: iamaelephant
Reality is reality. Relativism (that BS new-age attitude that we create the world by perceiving) is total crap and can be completely disproved in a number of logical ways.
No, it can't. Solipsism is an intractable problem because there are no phenomena that are incongruent with it.

There is a separate, external reality that is not linked in any way to our consciousness or awareness of the world. "What the !@#$ do We Know" is a load of crap, mmkay?
This is merely a postulate.

There is at least one extremely solid argument against solipsism that I know. It would take me a long time to type it out and I'm heading out soon, but if this thread is still around when I get back I will post it. It is definitive and logically defeats relativism completely and absolutely.
Please note that the idea that there does not exist a separate reality apart from the individual consciousness is called Solipsism -- not relativism -- and I assure you it is logically irrefutable. It is, because there are no necessarily true or false propositions in Solipsism. You cannot falsify it via reductio, therefore, nor could you falsify it empirically.

The bolded part is the key to how it is refuted. I still don't have the time to write a full post but I hope to soon.

But you totally ignored the meta-logical reasons given that explain why no such refutation can exist. You argument will amount to nothing but sophistry -- a word game, in other words. It won't make a material reality exist. It won't affect reality one whit, and it is reality that decides the facts, not words.

You seem to think that it is a problem for Solipsism that you might derive some kind of absurdity from your arbitrarily selected premises. This betrays a very wrongheaded concept of what Solipsism is.

I'll look forward to your post.