pentium 3 (and 4) vs. amd xp (and 64) - noticeable lag with amds?

[unwhippable]

i only recently noticed this after i ordered the logitech mx1000 mouse.
i'm not talking about the lag associated with taking the mouse off of the surface and replacing it, that lag happens independent of what computer it's connected to (due to the laser turning off and on).
what i am talking about is a sluggish delay (very slight) but noticeable if you pay close attention.
at first i thought it was the mouse because it was wireless... my roommate has a pentium 4 3.0 ghz computer so i tried it there and it doesn't happen there.

i was still doubtful that it was my system cuz (as you can see from my sig) my system is solid. so i decided to do a test... my canon sd300 has a 60 frames per second mode that can be viewed in slow motion or frame by frame... i placed my mouse directly in front of my monitor and recorded the movement of the mouse and the cursor as i wiggled my moues left and right a few times (all captured clearly on the camera). from watching the video in slow motion, you can see that upon direction change my hand and mouse would physically start moving before the cursor on the screen. there was about a 2-3 frame delay. i mirrored this test on my rooommate's pentium 4 (and even my pentium 4 mobile without hyperthreading) and the lag is not there... of course there is an occasional 1 frame delay due to synching the frames with the direction change... but it was clearly more better.
after this, i started noticing how simple applications (explorer, firefox, internet explorer, windows media player) loaded slower and was just a bit laggier on my monster athlon 64 than my roommate's stock p4.

is this common?
were any of you aware of this?
is intel's hyperthreading technology this good?
furthermore, when i move on to a dual core Athlon64 X2, will this lag disappear or at least be mollified?

i've since repeated my test with other mice to see the same results (an ibm optical, and the logitech mx518-which is btw, the best mouse i've ever used for gaming).

thoughts?

 

[Vegitto]

Yes, I believe this has to do with AMD64 (non-X2)'s disability to properly multitask. Do you experience these problems when doing CPU-intensive tasks, or even when just on desktop doing nothing? Anyway, if that is the case, there's nothing a good dose of X2 couldn't fix.

EDIT: Miltutaks instead of multitask.

 

[unwhippable]

yes, all of these retardations happen regardless of the CPU's utilization. it happens even when i'm running hardly running anything.

 

[Vegitto]

Interesting... And it is overclocked? It might have to do something with Cool & Quiet not working properly, but that's your own fault, for overclocking the processor . Try to completely update (if possible) your drivers. Also, try Windows Update (I'm assuming you're using Windows, if not, I don't really know what to do unless it's a Mac. Which it's not).

 

[Jeff7181]

It could be due to the lack of HT and Windows' poor preemptive multitasking. However I would think it would be something more to do with the USB controllers of each. You're talking about processors that cycle billions of times per second... I don't think there's going to be any lag you can detect with a mouse.

 

[Dman877]

I have a P4 2.8 system next to an Athlon XP system (2.4 gig barton) and don't notice this. The only difference between the two I have noticed is that my tv tuner doesn't stutter on the P4 system when I scroll an internet window, on the AMD it does. Everything else is exactly the same. I can't encode video or audio on either system and still use it, hyper-threading or not.

This was my first P4 system and I like it but the HT feature isn't enough to sway any future decision for me. Fortunately, dual core procs will address multitasking problems.

 

[unwhippable]

yes this is happening on windows xp pro with service pack 2 and all the updates from windows update... i'm also running the latest drivers for the motherboard so the latest usb drivers should be in effect.

what i left out of the original message was that i've done this test with my athlon xp 1800+ on a shuttle mb with via chipset and it does the same thing. and it's not my monitor either cuz i ruled that out too by connecting it to a CRT.

i'm also using the latest drivers for the logitechs... and i've even tried using microsoft drivers and surprising, the MS intellipoint (latest) drivers with the MX1000 show slightly less lag than with the logitechs.. according to my test... i've also done the test (on the Athlon64) without any mouse drivers except the default windows and it still has this lag.

i want to get to the bottom of this by either conceding that amds have this lag (hard to believe that nobody else has noticed it) or that there is something wrong with both my amd systems. i need to justify why my roommate's k/d ratio on CS is so much better than mine!!! ok, it might be cuz he plays like 8 hours a day... but seriously, the lag is kinda annoying.

are there no other AMD fanboys that will admit this issue? i am a huge fan of amd but this is unacceptable.

 

[HDTVMan]

Not happening to either of my 2 main machines.

One is a Barton 3200 the other a P4 2.4C.
Logitech MX500 & Microsoft Intellimouse explorer 2.0

Is the mouse surface different where your PC is? I had a wooden surface that would cause irratic operation of the mouse kind of like a lag but it was instantly gone when I got a mouse pad.

 

[unwhippable]

dman, that stuttering is exaclty what i meant by the lag when running multi-aps... so you don't notice the mouse lag? i mean, it's not easily noticeable at all... none of my friends have noticed it on my computer until i pointed it out. it's very subtle. do you, by chance, have the same mouse connected to the computers? could you do a simple tracking test: just move the mouse back and forth trying to get a good feel for it and then immediately do the same on the other computer. if you did have one of the canon SDX00 series camera it would be awesome if you could test it the way i did. another way to test it would be to change your background to a dark (pref. black) color and while moving your mouse left and right focus your eyes on a spot between your mouse and the cursor so that you're not looking at either of them directly but can still see them in your periphery. if you do have any lag, this method should allow you to sense a slight disconnect from the motion of the mouse and the cursor (of course it would be best to position your mouse near the monitor so that the left and right motions of the hand and cursor are parallel). using this method i notice a distinct difference between the p4s and the AMDs - athlon64 and athlonXP.

 

[unwhippable]

hdtvman, nope, this occurs with the same mouse pad.
thanks for your input though...
i'm now wondering if i'm really just super sensitive to this (cuz like i said, no one else that uses my computer has noticed it) or if there is some software that is causing this...
i installed xp on my A64 recently and haven't put much software on it at all... i guess i could do this test again after a fresh install...
but i'm not that anal, i'm not about to reinstall windows cuz of this barely noticeable lag...

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: unwhippable
yes this is happening on windows xp pro with service pack 2 and all the updates from windows update... i'm also running the latest drivers for the motherboard so the latest usb drivers should be in effect.

what i left out of the original message was that i've done this test with my athlon xp 1800+ on a shuttle mb with via chipset and it does the same thing. and it's not my monitor either cuz i ruled that out too by connecting it to a CRT.

i'm also using the latest drivers for the logitechs... and i've even tried using microsoft drivers and surprising, the MS intellipoint (latest) drivers with the MX1000 show slightly less lag than with the logitechs.. according to my test... i've also done the test (on the Athlon64) without any mouse drivers except the default windows and it still has this lag.

i want to get to the bottom of this by either conceding that amds have this lag (hard to believe that nobody else has noticed it) or that there is something wrong with both my amd systems. i need to justify why my roommate's k/d ratio on CS is so much better than mine!!! ok, it might be cuz he plays like 8 hours a day... but seriously, the lag is kinda annoying.

are there no other AMD fanboys that will admit this issue? i am a huge fan of amd but this is unacceptable.

Send me your MX1000 and I'll verify it for you.

 

[Zebo]

Never heard of that. A64 is notoriusly snappy on desktop due to interated mem-controller...lots of reviwers talk about it..

Sounds to me like some malware some driver conflict something software related. reformat and reinstall?

Multitasking means two heavy duty, 100%, type CPU load things run at once, not what you're talking about at all.

 

[Lithan]

This has nothing to do with HT. God, Im so sick of people with no clue what they are talking about spewing this garbage. There is one of three causes for this.

1. It's all in your head.
2. Your settings for the mouse are different and/or you have driver issues.
3. Did I mention that it's probably all in your head?

Reinstall your USB drivers. That's the only actual problem that could cause this.

 

[unwhippable]

dang it, i guess i'm gonna have to reinstall...

 

[Markfw]

I have windows 2000 on all my boxes, and allways use PS2 mice, no problems, but it a different situation. I can say it is NOT the CPU.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Lithan
This has nothing to do with HT. God, Im so sick of people with no clue what they are talking about spewing this garbage. There is one of three causes for this.

1. It's all in your head.
2. Your settings for the mouse are different and/or you have driver issues.
3. Did I mention that it's probably all in your head?

Reinstall your USB drivers. That's the only actual problem that could cause this.

If he is multi tasking it does have something to do with HT for an Intel chip. For instance going from multi tasking on an A64 (non X2) to a P4 you will notice a difference. AMD's instruction pipeline may be short, but not that short.

Additionally a lot has to do with the OS scheduler.

-Kevin

 

[unwhippable]

ok lithan, it's not in my head cuz i have proof with the video i took... i will see if i can post that here... and secondly, how can you so audaciously (take the lord's name in vain and) say "God, Im so sick of people with no clue what they are talking about spewing this garbage." b/c you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. intel's hyper threading has everything to do with scheduling tasks on the cpu. and updating the position of the curor on the screen is in fact a task... although it is quite frivolous.

your statement "Reinstall your USB drivers. That's the only actual problem that could cause this" is obviously shortsighted, or you're not reading too well because i've posted that this occurs on two of my machines with:

a) the logitech latest drivers
b) the latest MS intellipoint drivers
c) no drivers but the generic windows drivers

so obviously it's not the drivers.

how about some helpful, less belittling comments?
thanks.

 

[HDTVMan]

Since you have a high performance mouse you may want to look at USB Mouserate Switcher. Im a semi serious gamer. Doesnt mean I am any good. But this has helped my game. Maybe it will help you.

Keep in mind this will poll the mouse port 2-4 times faster so other USB devices may be effected. None of mine so far have but some have reported but didnt specify what devices.

USB Mouse Switcher 1.1 FREE DOWNLOAD

USB Mouserate Switcher 1.1 - FREE DOWNLOAD
USB Mouserate Switcher lets you enforce a mouse polling rate of 250 Hz (4 ms), 500 Hz (2 ms) or 1000 Hz (1 ms) and lets you restore Windows' original "usbport.sys" (8 ms) if needed. INSTRUCTIONS: 1. Restart Windows and login to Safe Mode with an admin account 2. Run this utility in SAFE MODE and follow the instructions 3. Reboot your computer [ read more about USB Mouserate switcher >> ]

 

[porkster]

The AMD market isn't based on firm standards, so you may be encountering an issue regarding motherboard drivers or market indifference.

1. Try to update all drivers.
2. See if there is enough v+amps on the USB port as too many USB items can exceed your motherboard's ability or PSU.
3. Use the good mouse on the P4.
4. HT is a great feature so don't listen to those that denounce it.
5. Check your bios settings. Some bios have option to how USB is handled, either by bios or os.
6. Is the AMD system's gfx card good at 2d work?

.

 

[michal1980]

Originally posted by: porkster
I need to be banned for being a trol

.

 

[Aenslead]

Originally posted by: unwhippable
ok lithan, it's not in my head cuz i have proof with the video i took... i will see if i can post that here... and secondly, how can you so audaciously (take the lord's name in vain and) say "God, Im so sick of people with no clue what they are talking about spewing this garbage." b/c you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. intel's hyper threading has everything to do with scheduling tasks on the cpu. and updating the position of the curor on the screen is in fact a task... although it is quite frivolous.

your statement "Reinstall your USB drivers. That's the only actual problem that could cause this" is obviously shortsighted, or you're not reading too well because i've posted that this occurs on two of my machines with:

a) the logitech latest drivers
b) the latest MS intellipoint drivers
c) no drivers but the generic windows drivers

so obviously it's not the drivers.

how about some helpful, less belittling comments?
thanks.

why do you have MS's Intellipoint software? You have a Logitech! Uninstall the Intellipoint software, please.

This is NOT related in ANY way to the processor whatsoever. Even an Athlon 1Ghz could deal with such things without coughing on the mouse.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: unwhippable
ok lithan, it's not in my head cuz i have proof with the video i took... i will see if i can post that here... and secondly, how can you so audaciously (take the lord's name in vain and) say "God, Im so sick of people with no clue what they are talking about spewing this garbage." b/c you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. intel's hyper threading has everything to do with scheduling tasks on the cpu. and updating the position of the curor on the screen is in fact a task... although it is quite frivolous.

your statement "Reinstall your USB drivers. That's the only actual problem that could cause this" is obviously shortsighted, or you're not reading too well because i've posted that this occurs on two of my machines with:

a) the logitech latest drivers
b) the latest MS intellipoint drivers
c) no drivers but the generic windows drivers

so obviously it's not the drivers.

how about some helpful, less belittling comments?
thanks.

Try a PS2 mouse. If you don;t have one, you can buy one for $5 just to see if that is it.

 

[Amaroque]

I've used many Athlon systems. From the original slot A Athlons, to the A64 939's, and almost everything in between. I've never seen this behavior on any VIA, AMD, or nVidia chipsets.

One exception, I do notice a slight lag when I use a Bluetooth mouse on my 939 system. This does not happen with a regular wireless optical (or corded) mouse, only Bluetooth.
The only conclusion I can draw, is that it's an interface issue.

 

[MDme]

good idea trying an ordinary (wired) mouse it may at least tell you if it is due to your MX1000. also, has it ever occured to you that there might be some interference from some other device (let's say your wireless phone, cellphone, radio, whatever) which may be not present in your friend's place. Also IIRC there is a setting for "hardware" mouse cursor...but i think most modern systems do have hardware mouse. either way, I have tried to see if that happens to my AMD system and honestly, it doesn't. (not even with my previous AMD and intel systems)

 

[Sixtyfour]

Originally posted by: unwhippable

a) the logitech latest drivers
b) the latest MS intellipoint drivers
c) no drivers but the generic windows drivers

so obviously it's not the drivers.

Why you think that latest drivers fix issues ?
Latest drivers more likely CAUSE issues.

But i believe that your mouse is the one to blame, since it is cordless.

btw. Lack of HT won't cause any lag in those situations.