Pentax K20D Body VS Nikon D80 Body and SB600 Flash

[garritynet]

Ok new thread. I thought I had finally made my final decision but I kept on reading and I decided to start a new thread.

A friend, whose advice I solicited, suggested that I get a cheaper camera and spend the extra money on a decent flash if I wanted to take really nice indoor pictures and only get the K20D if I wanted a fancy camera. I mentioned its weather resistance and he suggested that I not take pictures in the rain. Fair enough.

I had decided that the performance of the E520 simply was not going to cut it as I wanted good performance at ISO 800 although I am not too worried about 1600 or 3200. I am not actually sure why I want ISO 800 except that said friend told me so. Also: my decision to not get a E520 is pretty much because everyone on all the different forums suggest that its noise performance is sub par and that one would be disappointed in my low light indoor pictures. Seems like a numbers game to me but my confidence in the camera is diminished none the less.

I was looking at the D40 and D60 because for some reason I got it in my head that the D80 was a lot more expensive that it actually is. Maybe the price recently dropped. Anyway it cost about the same as the XSi and I can get a body for $550. I did almost no research and decided that the SB600 flash was a good match for it. That the SB800 cost $400 was an important factor.

Together they cost a grand total of $727.36 I would then purchase the Nikon 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED AF-S VR DX for it.

The K20D body is 748.36

I don't like the feel of the XSi.

Basically I want to take nice pictures of my cats, things I'm selling online, my family(mostly indoor shots), and random outdoor pictures of the sprawling strip mall/construction site that is Houston, Tx.

Anyway I have analysis-paralysis right now and I could use a few more of your excellent post to help me out. Thanks!

 

[dug777]

I used a SB-600 with my D80 and was utterly blown away by how badass it was

However, I have no experience with a K20D, other than playing in the shop.

Nikon lens family>Pentax lens family FWIW (like honey to the bee, I can see the angry responses already, but you're wrong, mmmkay? ).

 

[twistedlogic]

Originally posted by: garritynet
I was looking at the D40 and D60 because for some reason I got it in my head that the D80 was a lot more expensive that it actually is. Maybe the price recently dropped. Anyway it cost about the same as the XSi and I can get a body for $550. I did almost no research and decided that the SB600 flash was a good match for it. That the SB800 cost $400 was an important factor. I would then purchase the Nikon 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED AF-S VR DX for it.

I'd only go for the D40/D60 if you know your going to stick with mostly zoom lenses, as Nikon has only one (50mm F1.4) prime that will AF with these bodies. As long as you know this limitation beforehand you shouldn't be disappointed with either body.

I'd suggest if you don't plan on printing bigger than 8X10 or plan on doing any major cropping, the D40's 6MP would be a nice fit. The file sizes are small enough where it won't eat through memory cards and HDDs, and sorting and viewing them should be faster than a 10mp file. Though on the flip side memory(flash), HDD, and CPU power is becoming cheaper day by day.

So yeah, if cost is a factor and you want the most bang for buck, I'd suggest a refurbished D40 +kit lens ($375) + SB-600 ($170). That would put you at $545. This would get you started and leave you with a choice to go with either a bigger zoom (18-200) or a faster zoom (F2.8).

Good luck with your choice.

 

[magomago]

You should look at some DPREVIEW reviews rather than just read what things are written (4/3 isn't that much smaller you know). Especially look at comparison photographs. I will agree that Olympus seems, atleast when I'm specifically looking at comparison photos, more noisy, but the translation to real world photos is not AS direct.

Pentax also is much more noisier, however they intentionally apply VERY little noise reduction to save detail. If you want to apply NR later, you can always do it. If you don't want to buy a SB-600 due to cost, look at Sigma flashes. I don't have one, but I heard for people that they work fine, although you want to avoid doing repeated burst shots if you are already near full power because I've read a case of the plastic actually melting Of course I have no idea if it would happen to other flashes as well.

The D80 should be cheaper because its 'last gen' - it was released along with the K10D in the same 'bracket'. Oh, and head over to the dpreview forums for Pentax SLR. Plenty of them use their weather sealed lenses in the rain...your friend suggested that you don't, but you can if you want to

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: magomago
You should look at some DPREVIEW reviews rather than just read what things are written (4/3 isn't that much smaller you know). Especially look at comparison photographs. I will agree that Olympus seems, atleast when I'm specifically looking at comparison photos, more noisy, but the translation to real world photos is not AS direct.

Pentax also is much more noisier, however they intentionally apply VERY little noise reduction to save detail. If you want to apply NR later, you can always do it. If you don't want to buy a SB-600 due to cost, look at Sigma flashes. I don't have one, but I heard for people that they work fine, although you want to avoid doing repeated burst shots if you are already near full power because I've read a case of the plastic actually melting Of course I have no idea if it would happen to other flashes as well.

The D80 should be cheaper because its 'last gen' - it was released along with the K10D in the same 'bracket'. Oh, and head over to the dpreview forums for Pentax SLR. Plenty of them use their weather sealed lenses in the rain...your friend suggested that you don't, but you can if you want to

4/3 is at least 1/3 smaller (IIRC) than the size of most APS-C 3/2 systems, so I would say it's much smaller.

Pentax is not "much more noisier", except when comparing the K20D to the Nikon D90. Generally, Pentax is slightly noisier because, as you noted, they opt to save detail rather than reduce noise.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: dug777
Nikon lens family>Pentax lens family FWIW (like honey to the bee, I can see the angry responses already, but you're wrong, mmmkay? ).

You give us no credit! I don't think even the most hardcore Pentaxian would disagree with you. Most Pentaxians I know who get into the lens debate simply point to the uniqueness (they claim) of a few Pentax offerings, not the size and breadth of selection.

Personally, if it were my money on my budget, I'd go for a Pentax K200D w/kit lens, maybe also the FA 50/1.4 for portrait/low-light use, and, if you would like a zoom, the Pentax 55-300 (which is a steal at ~ $300). You could get a 3rd party flash, or the Pentax AF360GZ for under $200.

And, of course, because the K200D has in-body image stabilization, all the lenses benefit.

As far as weather sealing, I think that most DSLR's and lenses can tolerate a light rain pretty well. I know mine have.

 

[ElFenix]

D80 has an older version of the sensor that is in the K200D. the D80 should be a bit noisier overall due to that. again, in camera processing comes into play (especially with dpreview's "noise" test). so don't confuse lack of noise with less detail due to noise reduction with lower noise. frankly, all the nikon crops look like mud and you might as well use a G10 (ok i'm kidding about that last part... a little). the pentax looks like its been sharpened a bit to me as well. sharpening increases detail but also increases the appearance of noise.

all you really need to know about how silly that "noise" test is in the red line in the chart at the bottom of the page. it's lower at 800 than 400.

 

[garritynet]

Ok, so I was up to 4am. Reading reading everything ever said on the internet about these cameras. Only difference being that instead of trying to decide between the XSi and the E520 I am comparing the D80 to everything else. I also read a ton of lens reviews. I ended up reading a lot of lens reviews just for fun, or maybe it was just inertia.


What I currently have in my Amazon cart is

Pentax K200D kit with 18-55 lens 558.88
Understanding Exposure - Brian Peterson 17.13
Magic Lantern Guide 13.57
Metz 48 AF-1 Flash 249.90
Trancend 8GB Class 6 SDHC card w/ reader 26.67

Total 866.65

What do you guys think? Good setup? Can I get it cheaper somewhere else?

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

If you don't need swivel and can do with a bit less oomph, you can save $80 by getting the Pentax AF360GZ flash.

BTW, it's fun to obsess and debate about equipment, but the most important component is the nut behind the camera.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle

Originally posted by: magomago
You should look at some DPREVIEW reviews rather than just read what things are written (4/3 isn't that much smaller you know). Especially look at comparison photographs. I will agree that Olympus seems, atleast when I'm specifically looking at comparison photos, more noisy, but the translation to real world photos is not AS direct.

Pentax also is much more noisier, however they intentionally apply VERY little noise reduction to save detail. If you want to apply NR later, you can always do it. If you don't want to buy a SB-600 due to cost, look at Sigma flashes. I don't have one, but I heard for people that they work fine, although you want to avoid doing repeated burst shots if you are already near full power because I've read a case of the plastic actually melting Of course I have no idea if it would happen to other flashes as well.

The D80 should be cheaper because its 'last gen' - it was released along with the K10D in the same 'bracket'. Oh, and head over to the dpreview forums for Pentax SLR. Plenty of them use their weather sealed lenses in the rain...your friend suggested that you don't, but you can if you want to

4/3 is at least 1/3 smaller (IIRC) than the size of most APS-C 3/2 systems, so I would say it's much smaller.

Pentax is not "much more noisier", except when comparing the K20D to the Nikon D90. Generally, Pentax is slightly noisier because, as you noted, they opt to save detail rather than reduce noise.

I guess i was reacting harsh because some people hate on 4/3s as if it barely produces above P&S camera in terms of quality because of the 'small sensor'. The crop factor is greater (2 vs 1.5) but I notice most people rag on the image quality without seeing what it actually produces.

and Yes you are correct. I made a mistake in saying that Pentax was 'much noisier'. Perhaps 'much' was too strong It is noisier, but like we both agree, it is to save detail (And I actually prefer this approach...which is why I have a K100D)

I selecting...I'd probably go K20D over K200D, but in the end the pocket book rules them all (although what you get for the money you put down on a K20D is pretty nice)

I know I'll get flack for this, but I'd actually suggest forgoing the books and using all the incredibly detailed resources online. I read a lot for a very long time online and learned plenty. In the end though i did get 'light science and magic', but i'm glad that I spent time reading a lot of the great 'documentation' online, as well as looking at forums

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: magomago
and Yes you are correct. I made a mistake in saying that Pentax was 'much noisier'. Perhaps 'much' was too strong It is noisier, but like we both agree, it is to save detail (And I actually prefer this approach...which is why I have a K100D)

I selecting...I'd probably go K20D over K200D, but in the end the pocket book rules them all (although what you get for the money you put down on a K20D is pretty nice)

I know I'll get flack for this, but I'd actually suggest forgoing the books and using all the incredibly detailed resources online. I read a lot for a very long time online and learned plenty. In the end though i did get 'light science and magic', but i'm glad that I spent time reading a lot of the great 'documentation' online, as well as looking at forums

Hello, fellow K100D user!

I agree, you don't really need books, with so many excellent resources on line.

 

[Funyuns101]

OP, if you're bargain hunting... try heading over to www.pentaxforums.com - people periodically sell lightly used K20D for good prices along w/all sorts of lens and accessories.
I'm very glad to have picked up a K10D over the K100D at the time for the extra dial alone.

 

[garritynet]

The Sigma 530 DG ST cost a little less than the AF360GZ and it swivels. I am under the impression that I need swivel more than I need HSS or Modeling Light options. If I got a Sigma 530, no books and left the SD card for another day the grand total for a great camera with a nice lens and what I hope is sufficient flash capability for $707. I have read that it is however, really freakin huge. Like bigger than the camera huge. I would pay a little extra for a smaller flash that dose the same things, if only one existed.

The K20D has better noise handling and a 14MP but for less than the price of its body I get a K200D with a decent flash and lens. From what I have seen the flash is going to make a much bigger difference than the extra pixels or noise.

 

[twistedlogic]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
BTW, it's fun to obsess and debate about equipment, but the most important component is the nut behind the camera.

QFFT

Ergonomics FTW.

 

[soydios]

D80 + SB-600 = winnar

 

[garritynet]

soydios- how so?

 

[ElFenix]

if you get the pentax be sure to pick up the FA 50 f/1.4. it's ~$200 and will let in more light than any other pentax lens. it's a bit of a portrait lens on the digital pentaxes. canon and nikon's comparable lenses are ~$300

 

[garritynet]

ElFenix- Thanks! I will do that.

 

[Funyuns101]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
if you get the pentax be sure to pick up the FA 50 f/1.4. it's ~$200 and will let in more light than any other pentax lens. it's a bit of a portrait lens on the digital pentaxes. canon and nikon's comparable lenses are ~$300

absolutely. everyone Pentax guy/gal should have one!

 

[ivan2]

Originally posted by: Funyuns101

Originally posted by: ElFenix
if you get the pentax be sure to pick up the FA 50 f/1.4. it's ~$200 and will let in more light than any other pentax lens. it's a bit of a portrait lens on the digital pentaxes. canon and nikon's comparable lenses are ~$300

absolutely. everyone Pentax guy/gal should have one!

even I have one, got it on a m42 to canon converter...

D80 is a bit too old of a camera to buy new especially when it's replacement has come out with good reviews. Look for it in used market. The Sigma 530 is a great alternative, my friend loves his and I am sure you will do great with it.

 

[tdawg]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
if you get the pentax be sure to pick up the FA 50 f/1.4. it's ~$200 and will let in more light than any other pentax lens. it's a bit of a portrait lens on the digital pentaxes. canon and nikon's comparable lenses are ~$300

Yeah, but the Nikon 50 f/1.8 is $100 and for most people will produce images every bit as good as the 1.4 version.

Since you're interested in flash photography: the Nikon flash system is arguably the best flash system (speedlights only; not discounting strobes and more advanced lighting options) available (accuracy, consistency, ease-of-use, wireless multiflash control, etc), so pairing a D80 with an SB-600 should produce very nice images. This is something you should definitely be considering if you are planning on using flash a lot (and if you're doing indoor, family holiday type shots, you'll be using a flash). And with a speedlight on the camera, there's no need to worry about high iso, really, though both will be decent to a point (iso 800+?).

Ultimately, you'll be satisfied with either camera you choose. Just make sure the lenses and accessories you think you want are going to be available to you, since you're really buying into a system.

EDIT: You should check out www.keh.com for used camera bodies, lenses and accessories. Like another poster said, the D80 can be found cheaper used, since it's the predecessor to the D90--basically, the D80 was a mini D200.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: tdawg

Yeah, but the Nikon 50 f/1.8 is $100 and for most people will produce images every bit as good as the 1.4 version.

it's also 2/3 of a stop slower.

 

[tdawg]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: tdawg

Yeah, but the Nikon 50 f/1.8 is $100 and for most people will produce images every bit as good as the 1.4 version.

it's also 2/3 of a stop slower.

Yes, that's true. But in terms of functionality for the everyday user, the difference is most likely negligible. At f/1.8, there's still plenty to learn about depth of field and usage of wide open apertures. That, and it's far cheaper. The 50 f/1.8 is one of the best bang-for-the-buck lenses you can buy, in a lot of people's opinion, including mine. I'm just proposing options to the buyer; f/1.4 or f/1.8 is going to be worlds brighter than a consumer f/3.8 - f/5.6 or f/6.3, or similar lenses.

 

[jpeyton]

Liar liar...pants on fire?

 

[dug777]

I don't think I made it clear how good the SB-600 is