Pentax K10D or Canon Digital Rebel XTi (400D)

grepcomputers

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I'm leaning towards the K10D, I wouldn't mind shooting in RAW most of the time and then running it through The GIMP (w/ UFRaw) or Photoshop. I miss working with images after the shot is taken, as I did in the darkroom back in highschool.

I have an old 35mm Canon Rebel w/ two lenses, and I was wondering if they would work on the Rebel XTi? That would certainly be nice. It would also weigh heavily in the XTi's favor, as I already have two lenses, one of which is 70-300mm. I'd have to buy one of those for the K10D.

I like shooting in low light conditions, and shooting candids, and being able to get good shots without a flash is important to me. What's better for this - image stabilization, or less noise at higher ISOs? Also, does the in-camera noise reduction get applied to RAW images?

I did photography in high school for 3 years, although that was a little while ago, so I'd rate myself a little above amateur. Also, the whole point of my getting a digital SLR is to resurrect this old hobby as a new hobby, so I *want* to play around.

From what I can tell, the XTi has better in-camera JPG image quality than the K10D. What's the general consensus on K10D RAW image quality vs. XTi RAW image quality?

If spending more up front to get the K10D kit plus a longer zoom means doing it right, I'm all for it. But if the XTi would suit my needs just fine, it makes more sense to go for that.
 

keeleysam

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I love my XTi.

You will love yours.

/thread.

EDIT: Your old lenses will work as long as they are EF mount, which I am assuming you have this or something similar. However, the cheap telephotos are REALLY crappy, and your XTi will show all of the glass imperfections. I have this and love it to death.

By the way, if you're going to get the XTi, buy the body seperate, as you can put the saved money into a good lens. Amazon usually has the best deal.
 

grepcomputers

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How's the auto exposure? A number of people on the dpreview forums are complaining of underexposure problems.

What's the noise level like at ISO 1600? Can you get clean shots in low light without a flash?
 

fuzzybabybunny

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1. Canon lenses will not work on the K10D because the distance between the lens and the sensor would be too far, meaning you would no longer have infinity focus if you use a Canon lens on a Pentax. The other way around works however. Pentax lenses will work on Canon cameras.

2. IS vs. High ISO: IS is better than high ISO, provided the subject is not moving. High ISO is better than IS if the subject is moving. If you were at an indoor hockey game with low light, you would want ISO over IS. If you primarily shoot somewhat stationary subjects, however, IS is far more useful than ISO. You don't lose image quality with IS, and it will generally allow you to shoot in darker situations than just high ISO.

3. The in-camera noise reduction does not get applied to RAW images. You have to do that yourself in RAW software or Photoshop.

I personally shoot exclusively in RAW + low quality JPEG. The JPEGs are only there as fast-loading thumbnail markers for the corresponding RAW file. I think it would be kind of a waste to shoot in only JPEG on either camera. With that said, both RAW images will be pretty much equal quality if shot with the same quality of lens, but the XTi will have better looking high-ISO images. I've seen shots taken from the K10D at ISO800 and above, and while a lot of people thought that the shots were good, I personally was not too impressed.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/489628/

If you look at #5 and #6 there is significant grain in the photos.

Going with Canon means you get a LOT of lens choices, and you can save yourself a lot of money by going with used lenses. Pentax has a bunch of used manual focus lenses that are great performing and at good prices, but obviously they are manual focus. Pentax only has a very small market for current used autofocus lenses.

The XTi's viewfinder stinks.
 

keeleysam

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Auto is good on the XTi, but I usually leave it on A-DEP or Av so I can shoot RAW and focus on exactly what I want to.

Canon is GREAT with high ISO. Of course, there will be a bit of grain, but it is really not noticeable. Having an IS lens will really help in low light situations, as will a lens like this, which is really a mandatory part of any camera bag. I'd pick it up with the body, as it really lets a TON of light in at f/1.8.

EDIT: Oh yeah, fuzzy, thanks for the rec. to my SS.
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Originally posted by: keeleysam
EDIT: Oh yeah, fuzzy, thanks for the rec. to my SS.

Whazza-huh?

Social Security? *mind gets locked on "Social Security," can't think of other possibilities*

:p
 

grepcomputers

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fuzzybabybunny

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Originally posted by: grepcomputers
It is beginning to sound like the XTi would be a better bet for me, especially if I can reuse my existing Canon lenses. I could spend some of the money saved on another lens, maybe one with IS.

I still would like to know about the underexposure issue I am hearing about on the dpreview forums. Or rather, the multi-point exposure issues...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=21438234
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=21216407

I have no idea. Only way to really find out is to buy one and see if you have the same issues.

Have you thought of maybe going for a used 20D instead? 8MP and 10MP is not that big of a difference. The 20D has 5FPS, a much better viewfinder than the XTi, and is generally a bit more robust. It's bigger than the XTi, and if you need the XTi for its small size and light weight, the 20D might not be the best idea.
 

grepcomputers

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I have small hands, so size will be an issue for me. Weight is not as much of an issue, but less is better. But neither are a deal breaker.

It does seem that the general consensus is that 10MP vs. 8MP doesn't really show much of a difference.

I'm thinking of hitting up B&H PhotoVideo on Tuesday (I live in NYC and have the day off work), so I can get some hands on experience with these cameras. Maybe the 20D will fit me just fine. Are the sensor and image processor on it considered to be at the same level as the XTi? Or better?
 

czech09

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I'll go with the XTI just because there are more lenses out for it and if you're looking for cheap, there's a bigger secondary (used) market for Canon.
 

czech09

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Originally posted by: keeleysam
I love my XTi.

You will love yours.

/thread.

EDIT: Your old lenses will work as long as they are EF mount, which I am assuming you have this or something similar. However, the cheap telephotos are REALLY crappy, and your XTi will show all of the glass imperfections. I have this and love it to death.

By the way, if you're going to get the XTi, buy the body seperate, as you can put the saved money into a good lens. Amazon usually has the best deal.

I agree on everything but your last comment. Dell had the body recently for very cheap. It'll be back just wait.
 

mrrman

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I was looking at the Canon S3 and now changed to the Canon G7 10MP but now this XTi looks nice....
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Originally posted by: grepcomputers
I have small hands, so size will be an issue for me. Weight is not as much of an issue, but less is better. But neither are a deal breaker.

It does seem that the general consensus is that 10MP vs. 8MP doesn't really show much of a difference.

I'm thinking of hitting up B&H PhotoVideo on Tuesday (I live in NYC and have the day off work), so I can get some hands on experience with these cameras. Maybe the 20D will fit me just fine. Are the sensor and image processor on it considered to be at the same level as the XTi? Or better?

If you try the XTi, attempt to try it with the battery grip installed. I have small hands too, but still found the XT too small. With the battery grip, it is MUCH better. Compared to a 20D with its battery grip though, the XTi with grip is still smaller. I have the 30D also, and just by itself it feels really chunky in my hands. Ironically, when it has the battery grip installed, even though the grip adds even more mass, it feels better, especially with a hand grip :confused:

As for the sensor and image processor, I'm not sure. All I know is that the new 30D has the same sensor as the 20D, and I think the same image processing engine. So I'm assuming the 20D's sensor and image processor are better than the XTi.
 

foghorn67

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The XTi isn't bad with the battery grip. Looks wise, it's damn good looking camera with a grip. It looks a lot better then my 30D w/grip.
 

ElFenix

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i bought an xti the weekend it came out. it's little. it doesn't weigh much. it has great 1st and 3rd party lens support (although sigma has an annoying tendency to front focus on canon cameras, but it doesn't afflict all models).

the viewfinder basically blows, but the AF system works really really well. put it on center spot AF, put the spot where you want, let it focus, then recompose.

for low light, it'll work best with canon's USM lenses.

a tripod is best for low light. once the camera is on the tripod you can use ISO to stop the motion if need be. the pentax would be better at that as it has an ISO3200 setting (the xti is 25% more sensitive than it's setting according to dpreview's tests, so the XTi would be ISO 2000). i'm really not sure if IS can be all that great, because all it really lets you do is keep the shutter open longer. great if your subject doesn't move, but useless otherwise.

the XTi has a really cramped grip. i hold the weight of the camera in my left hand so it doesn't bother me. my right pinky just hands out on the bottom of the camera. if you hold the camera right handed, you'd be better off with a 20D, 30D, or the pentax.

old pentax lenses are getting harder to come by as they're getting snapped up by K100D and *ist DL owners. but they are still lens expensive than used canon lenses of similar optical quality.

the pentax is far easier to focus in low light because of the much nicer viewfinder.

if you change the settings in the K10D's menu for jpegs, you can fix the softness issue. the K10D comes set to 'film,' while the K100D comes set to 'bright.' changing the K10D to 'bright' fixes the jpeg softness 'problem' that the k10d 'suffers.'

as for canon's underexposure, i've found that most of the pics i've taken with it improve with +1/3 or so. once i'm up to speed on self-metering i suppose i won't care at all about that. after all, even the best camera meter lies to you. they just can't help it.




as for the canon G7, no one would be complaining if it was called the S90.


edit: damnit i just spent 5 minutes drooling over the canon powershot pro2 announcement over at dpreview, just to find out it's wishful thinking by the poster :(
 

grepcomputers

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Hmmm. Fuzzybabybunny almost has me sold. Time to read some reviews on the 20D.

Still, it's $1K at B&H Photovideo, kit only (comes with 18-55mm lens. non IS, boo). It darn well better be better than the XTi at that much more for 2MP less... ;)
 

getbush

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I think anandtech needs to stick to reviewing what they know. I got my 30D for $867 factory refurbished from canon. It is indistinguishable from new.
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Originally posted by: grepcomputers
Hmmm. Fuzzybabybunny almost has me sold. Time to read some reviews on the 20D.

Still, it's $1K at B&H Photovideo, kit only (comes with 18-55mm lens. non IS, boo). It darn well better be better than the XTi at that much more for 2MP less... ;)

The 20D is pretty old, and so are the reviews. I would read both 30D and 20D reviews, keeping in mind that the sensors are the same. For example, 30D reviews may have tests that were not available during the 20D review, but since the two cameras are so similar, you can sorta make an educated guess as to if the test results of the 30D apply to the 20D.
 

grepcomputers

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How do you buy factory refurbished from Canon? I know I can go into B&H and go to their used department...but that's not from Canon.

EDIT:
fbb: I seem to remember a thread with a link to a photo album by you...am I making this up? If not, was that all with a 20D?

EDIT2:
Now THIS is what I'm talking about.
30D body, 17-85mm IS lens, and a 2GB CF card...all for $1700.
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Originally posted by: grepcomputers
How do you buy factory refurbished from Canon? I know I can go into B&H and go to their used department...but that's not from Canon.

EDIT:
fbb: I seem to remember a thread with a link to a photo album by you...am I making this up? If not, was that all with a 20D?

EDIT2:
Now THIS is what I'm talking about.
30D body, 17-85mm IS lens, and a 2GB CF card...all for $1700.

The link to my photo album is in my sig under "Fuzzy Photos"

All pics were taken with an XT. I just upgraded to a 30D and haven't really used it. So far, I already like the 30D better. It's just more of a camera than the XT.

The kit above is not a bad deal at all. Just make sure to send in your rebates with tracking and/or delivery confirmation and a photocopy of all documents that you keep at home. Canon is somewhat notorious for having warranty issues. Also, I would buy all extra batteries and cables from third parties. 3rd party 30D batteries cost only $12, and remote shutter cables only cost... $15 tops?
 

grepcomputers

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What are your thoughts on the 30D's lack of anti-dust features vs. the XTi and K10D?

(I guess I should read signatures more...)
 

getbush

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I've linked some photos before but I don't know if you saw them. Just some motorsports stuff from this summer. They were shot with a D50 and a Sigma 70-300 $200 lens. http://rlbimages.smugmug.com Now I have the 30D and a canon 100-300 USM for the fast focusing. Plus some other lenses.
I got the camera from ebay. It came sealed from canon in a refurbished box. I think there are pictures in my album. All packaged like a new one, except for the design of the box.

here it is
 

fuzzybabybunny

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Originally posted by: grepcomputers
What are your thoughts on the 30D's lack of anti-dust features vs. the XTi and K10D?

(I guess I should read signatures more...)

I think it was mentioned in a thread on dpreview that the only brand that had a truly working anti-dust feature was Olympus. It was generally agreed that the XTi and K10D anti-dust features are not very effective, but rather good marketing tools. There was one guy who had a spec of dust on the sensor and the vibration did nothing. He blew the sensor with a bulb blower and it was gone in a couple seconds.

BTW, if you get a 20D or 30D, sterlingtek (a very respected battery vendor) is having a free shipping promotion on its batteries:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=251594

I used Sterlingtek batteries for the XT. Worked perfectly. I got in on this free shipping a week ago and they arrived today and work great. I don't expect any problems with them. They are cheaper and have a greater charge capacity than the official Canon batteries.