Pennsylvania Voter ID Law Trial Set

[Charles Kozierok]

Ah...when you cannot find fault with what the person says, attack the person instead. Logical fallacy found, complaint flushed.

This is only a fallacy if one believes that humans are perfect and ideology never influences judgments.

History strongly suggests otherwise.

 

[cybrsage]

So I sort of understand the push for photo-id when voting; we'll be protected in the event some super-villain decides to try some overly elaborate, easily foiled election rigging.

But why isn't there a similar outcry to protect the election system in the more obvious places: absentee ballots, paper trails for electronic voting machines (such as using scan-tron style system to simply read and count a paper ballot), and finding ways to stop officials in charge of elections from stuffing ballot boxes.

We need to address all these issues, but each one on its own. Just because other avenues exist does not mean we should not try to stop others. This one is an easy fix, so do the easy fix first, then start working on the harder fixes.

It is the same way you remove credit card debt. You start by paying off the lowest debt cards first, then move to the higher debt ones.

 

[cybrsage]

This is only a fallacy if one believes that humans are perfect and ideology never influences judgments.

History strongly suggests otherwise.

Nope.

 

[actuarial]

We need to address all these issues, but each one on its own. Just because other avenues exist does not mean we should not try to stop others. This one is an easy fix, so do the easy fix first, then start working on the harder fixes.

It is the same way you remove credit card debt. You start by paying off the lowest debt cards first, then move to the higher debt ones.

You don't do that if the lowest debt cards are at a 0% interest rate.

Solving a problem that doesn't exist (or only marginally exists), while at the same time creating a new problem (voter disenfranchisement) and also ignoring other problems, doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

 

[cybrsage]

Can you tell me how to find out if people are lying about their identity when you are not allowed to check their identity?

 

[thraashman]

Can you tell me how to find out if people are lying about their identity when you are not allowed to check their identity?

And here I thought in America people were innocent until proven guilty. You seem to feel we should assume people are guilty and they must prove otherwise before we give them their Constitutionally guaranteed rights.

 

[cybrsage]

And here I thought in America people were innocent until proven guilty. You seem to feel we should assume people are guilty and they must prove otherwise before we give them their Constitutionally guaranteed rights.

Ah, a position taken out of ignorance. Not a surprise, our school system is not very good. The Constitution does not guarentee every American citizen can vote.

Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several Statesaccording to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officersof a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am14.html

Amendment 26 - Voting Age Set to 18 Years

1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am26.html

There are many people who are not allowed to vote. You are also not allowed to pretend you are someone else in order to vote. Photo ID allows us to ensure one of the people who are not allowed to vote is not posing as someone who is.

 

[actuarial]

Can you tell me how to find out if people are lying about their identity when you are not allowed to check their identity?

How about surveying voters to ensure that those listed as having shown up and voted actually did.

 

[Pens1566]

Voter ID is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

And how does it work for absentee ballots?

 

[cybrsage]

How about surveying voters to ensure that those listed as having shown up and voted actually did.

Good idea, but it is not done. Though when it is done for petitions (such as when an ex-governor of Indiana confirmed he did not sign the petition to allow Obama on the ballot in Indiana), we find a great many cases of fraud.

I suspect doing this will find the same thing. No one is doing it. You should write into the groups which are spending money to fight these laws to do such a survey, it could prove their point.

 

[cybrsage]

And how does it work for absentee ballots?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33837980&postcount=177

This was already covered, just a few posts up from your post.

 

[actuarial]

Good idea, but it is not done. Though when it is done for petitions (such as when an ex-governor of Indiana confirmed he did not sign the petition to allow Obama on the ballot in Indiana), we find a great many cases of fraud.

I suspect doing this will find the same thing. No one is doing it. You should write into the groups which are spending money to fight these laws to do such a survey, it could prove their point.

Would it not make more sense that those insisting that there is a problem needing to be solved by a law prove that the problem actually exists? I can just as easily say that a blood sample be taken to be ensure someone didn't get a photo ID with the wrong name on it. Prove that people aren't doing that or I'm gonna pass the law.

And signing petitions is much, much different than voting, because you need to register to vote.

 

[nehalem256]

How about surveying voters to ensure that those listed as having shown up and voted actually did.

And why is that any better than simply checking their ID, which is the normal way to verify identity?

Voter ID is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

And how does it work for absentee ballots?

Require the voter to put the ID# on their photoID onto the absentee ballot.

 

[actuarial]

And why is that any better than simply checking their ID, which is the normal way to verify identity?

Like a birth certificate?

Require the voter to put the ID# on their photoID onto the absentee ballot.

A photo ID# and non photo ID# are equally useful for absentee ballots.

 

[nehalem256]

Would it not make more sense that those insisting that there is a problem needing to be solved by a law prove that the problem actually exists?

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/27/vote_fraud_retires_shameless_gop_official/

Voter fraud. Seems to me like lying about your address would be a lot harder if you have to provide a driver's license which has your address on it. Maybe that is just me though.

 

[fustercluck]

I don't venture into the political forum here too often because it makes me horribly depressed and lose any faith I have left in humanity, which is about none.

BUT, The whole voter ID issue pisses me off to no end, and it's not even in my state. It's a completely despicable move by the right. It's also unconstitutional, and extremely un-american. It's very clear that voter ID is a tactic to get Romney more votes, and anyone who cannot see it like that is an idiot, or just turning a blind eye because it supports their candidate. I can't believe any states would possibly implement the Voter ID law. It's gross.

As stated many times, voter fraud is not a problem that exists. 10 documented cases in the entire country since 2000. So, I don't understand how anyone could possibly make the argument that Voter ID is necessary in any possibly way. D-e-s-p-i-c-a-b-l-e.

I don't want any Americans in EITHER party singled out from a petty law made only as a political tactic that restricts their right to vote. For example, if states made a law that restricted old rich white people from voting, I would be very much against that too even though said law would hand Obama the election on a silver platter. Let the people vote. Let the political shit take it's usual course through debates and political ads. Let people hear each candidate and make their choice, unrestricted.

Any chance the Voter ID law bullshit will get to the Supreme court? State judges getting tons of money from the Right shouldn't be deciding these things. I really really hope all the voter ID laws get struck down.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Funny over the last two nights listening to the die-hard crying on the news about how unfair it is to prove who you are.

 

[PokerGuy]

Would it not make more sense that those insisting that there is a problem needing to be solved by a law prove that the problem actually exists?

Do you always wait for something to become a big problem before addressing it, or do you proactively prevent it from happening?

 

[PokerGuy]

It's also unconstitutional, and extremely un-american.

According to who exactly?

It's very clear that voter ID is a tactic to get Romney more votes, and anyone who cannot see it like that is an idiot

Speaking of idiots, I'd love to hear you explain how having people show ID to vote would "give Romney MORE votes". When someone is asked to identify themselves they are going to change their mind and vote for Romney when before they weren't?

I can't believe any states would possibly implement the Voter ID law. It's gross.

Yeah! How dare they ask for ID when driving a car, or buying alcohol, or opening a bank account or........

Wake up you fool, you need ID for any number of things, showing that you are actually who you say you are makes perfect sense.

As stated many times, voter fraud is not a problem that exists.

Do you always wait for something to become a big problem before addressing it, or does it make more sense to prevent it?

a political tactic that restricts their right to vote.

Nobody is restricting anyone's right to vote. If they had a right to vote before, they do now. What they're asked to do is provide ID to confirm that they are who they purport to be. No vote restriction taking place.

You're just another dimlib parroting idiot dimlib talking points.

 

[actuarial]

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/27/vote_fraud_retires_shameless_gop_official/

Voter fraud. Seems to me like lying about your address would be a lot harder if you have to provide a driver's license which has your address on it. Maybe that is just me though.

It would also be hard to do that if you had to show up with any ID that had your address on it. Hell, even if you simply had to show a utility bill.

This is again an issue of voter registration fraud, not an issue of someone showing up to vote claiming they are someone they're not.

 

[actuarial]

Do you always wait for something to become a big problem before addressing it, or do you proactively prevent it from happening?

There are already measures in place to prevent it from happening. And yes, I would wait for at least some evidence that those measures are insufficient to expand them, especially if that expansion simply causes a new problem that I don't have a solution for.

 

[shira]

How do you show a crime is happening when you are not allowed to check and see if a crime is happening?

I seem to recall an earlier post you made where you took an entirely different view on voter ID laws and their potentially damaging effect on fair elections, especially (you argued) when we know so little about whether significant voter fraud even exists. Ah, yes, here's that earlier post you made:

IMO, we should not impliment potentially election damaging laws when the popular choice for President in the upcoming election is so fragile AND when our understanding of voter fraud is so limited. We should study voter fraud until we actually understand it, THEN make recommendations on what do to about it.

Right now, politically controlled legislatures are making laws without actually understanding how they affect elections. That is stupid, and potentially dangerous.

Oh, wait. I was wrong. I guess you didn't actually make THAT post. What you actually wrote was:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33794787&postcount=110

IMO, we should not impliment potentially economy damaging rules when the economy is so fragile AND when our understanding of climate is so limited. We should study HOW the climate works until we actually understand it, THEN make recommendation on what do to about it.

Right now, politically controlled science is making recommendations without actually understanding how climate works. That is stupid, and potentially dangerous.

But of course, you're intellectually honest and consistent. So naturally you're against Voter ID laws, since their affect is so potentially damaging and the evidence for voter fraud is virtually non-existent.

 

[PokerGuy]

But of course, you're intellectually honest and consistent. So naturally you're against Voter ID laws, since their affect is so potentially damaging and the evidence for voter fraud is virtually non-existent.

His posts are entirely consistent. The effect is not at all that big because it simply is not that hard to acquire an ID, since everyone pretty much already needs one to do most ordinary things in their life. The analogy to the MMGW hoax is stupid, it fails on many levels. The only way they are similar is that it isn't currently clear that there's a problem, but there are indications that there could be. Other than that, they are completely different.

 

[EagleKeeper]

There are already measures in place to prevent it from happening. And yes, I would wait for at least some evidence that those measures are insufficient to expand them, especially if that expansion simply causes a new problem that I don't have a solution for.

What measures exist to prevent it.

You have acknowledged that it happens. Therefore those measures are not as effective as what you are scared of.

The more ways of combating voter fraud; the better.

 

[cybrsage]

Would it not make more sense that those insisting that there is a problem needing to be solved by a law prove that the problem actually exists? I can just as easily say that a blood sample be taken to be ensure someone didn't get a photo ID with the wrong name on it. Prove that people aren't doing that or I'm gonna pass the law.

The law is already passed. To make it go away, those wanting it gone need to show how and why it needs to go away.

And signing petitions is much, much different than voting, because you need to register to vote.

Requiring people to register disenfranchises people...