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Pennsylvania Voter ID Law Trial Set

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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Oh, wait. I was wrong. I guess you didn't actually make THAT post. What you actually wrote was:

But of course, you're intellectually honest and consistent. So naturally you're against Voter ID laws, since their affect is so potentially damaging and the evidence for voter fraud is virtually non-existent.
Yes, you are wrong. At least you admit to being wrong even though you do not stop being wrong about it.

There is no damaging effect of requiring voter ID, unless you are not legally allowed to vote, then you lose what you should never have had.


I am surprised you think voting is the same as global climate change. I knew you were stupid, but that goes beyond the level of stupid I thought you were at. Wow.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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More info about why the law was upheld and the likely failure of the appeal:

Opponents of Pennsylvania's new voter identification law suffered something of a setback when a Pennsylvania judge upheld the law, according to The Huffington Post. The groups trying to prevent the law from taking effect are now gearing up to file an appeal with the state Supreme Court, and the U.S. Justice Department is alsotaking a closer look at the law that requires voters to show valid photo identification before casting a ballot, according to the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Clearly the fight over whether or not the law will take effect is going to go down to the wire.

Why did the judge uphold the law?
According to NPR News, Pennsylvania state court Judge Robert Simpson allowed the law to remain on the books because the plaintiffs failed to show that voter disenfranchisement would be immediate and that the availability of free photo IDs provides enough proof that the state is trying to accommodate potential voters.

Will citizens be barred from voting without proper ID?
No Pennsylvania voter will be turned away from the polls on Election Day. Voters who lack the proper and approved photo identification will be allowed to cast a provisional ballot, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer. Upon completing the provisional ballot the voter must obtain the proper identification and present those credentials to voting authorities in a designated amount of time to have the vote counted.

What kind of photo ID is required by the law?
According to ABC News, acceptable forms of photo ID include: state issued driver's licenses, military IDs, college IDs, and any state, federal, or local ID. In addition, photo identification issued by state care facilities will also be valid, but any college ID without an expiration date will not be accepted. Residents who lack the proper identification can obtain a free photo ID from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation with a few supporting documents.

Do the opponents have a chance in the Pennsylvania Supreme Court?
The fate of any appeal in the Supreme Court is questionable, because the court is presently divided equally with three Democrats and three Republicans thanks to the suspension of Justice Joan Orie Melvin, who awaiting trial on corruption charges, according to the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Opponents would need at least four members of the court to vote against the law, but since the measure was conceived, drafted, and pushed through by Republicans, the outcome of the appeal is questionable at best for opponents of the legislation.
http://news.yahoo.com/pennsylvania-court-upholds-voter-id-law-172400906.html

Looks like the law will be here to stay. Remember, it is your own fault if you do not bother to go get a free state issued ID and therefor cannot vote. The law is not a surprise, the last election cycle had the warning system in place for it (where they told you that you will need photo ID to vote in the general election).
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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The fate of any appeal in the Supreme Court is questionable, because the court is presently divided equally with three Democrats and three Republicans thanks to the suspension of Justice Joan Orie Melvin, who awaiting trial on corruption charges
How sad is it that judicial review is largely dependent on the party affiliation of the judges? Shouldn't they be interpreting the law rather than making up their own based on political ideology? (I know, I know, there are gray areas, but you shouldn't have to look at a D or R next to someone's name to know if a law is constitutional or not).
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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It is not that they are going to vote to uphold the law because their letter matches the letter of the crafters, but because their values are most likely aligned with the values of the crafters. As such, it is expected they will share the same view as the crafters on things - provided the thing is not way out there.

Had this law instead been about giving photo IDs to illegals, the D judges would most likely side with the D congressmen who crafted that law, simply because of the shared values.


EDIT: Basically, the same reason why most people select their party and then support it, they are doing it because of shared values.
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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It is not that they are going to vote to uphold the law because their letter matches the letter of the crafters, but because their values are most likely aligned with the values of the crafters. As such, it is expected they will share the same view as the crafters on things - provided the thing is not way out there.

Had this law instead been about giving photo IDs to illegals, the D judges would most likely side with the D congressmen who crafted that law, simply because of the shared values.


EDIT: Basically, the same reason why most people select their party and then support it, they are doing it because of shared values.
I know, but it seems to me that the judicial branch, unlike the legislative or executive should be going off the laws, not shared values or ideology. In practice the law is not 100% clear so values and ideology do play a part, but it seems like nowadays the political affiliation of the judge means more than the law itself. Just my perception, I don't remember it always being this way, but I'm not sure.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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I agree with you noticing a change. It appears the nation is becoming more and more partisan, so the judges are as well (since they are just like the rest of us).
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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His posts are entirely consistent. The effect is not at all that big because it simply is not that hard to acquire an ID, since everyone pretty much already needs one to do most ordinary things in their life. The analogy to the MMGW hoax is stupid, it fails on many levels. The only way they are similar is that it isn't currently clear that there's a problem, but there are indications that there could be. Other than that, they are completely different.
Can anyone think of any other branch of science where every major scientific body on the planet - and almost all scientists in the field - says that that a theory is tue, yet a significant fraction of the population think the theory is "a hoax?"

Absolutely astonishing.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,574
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There is no damaging effect of requiring voter ID, unless you are not legally allowed to vote, then you lose what you should never have had.
And where are your studies to back up this sweeping conclusion? No, don't spout more empty opinions. Show us the basis of this claim.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,670
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I do love the misleading dishonesty of Cybr's linked piece-

Voters who lack the proper and approved photo identification will be allowed to cast a provisional ballot, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer. Upon completing the provisional ballot the voter must obtain the proper identification and present those credentials to voting authorities in a designated amount of time to have the vote counted.
But when we follow the link to the original article, not the doctored interpretation of it, we get this-

Pennsylvania's law requires voters to show an acceptable photo ID or cast a provisional ballot and return with the ID within six days.
http://articles.philly.com/2012-08-15/news/33201719_1_voter-id-laws-acceptable-photo-strict-photo-id

Obviously, it's a snap to get your birth certificate and your photo ID in 6 days. Nothing to it.

It's just another deception in the long list of deceptions leading up to & supporting current Repub voter suppression efforts.

The original article references ALEC as pushing these bills nationwide, and here's what a founder of ALEC had to say about it years ago-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GBAsFwPglw
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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I do love the misleading dishonesty of Cybr's linked piece-



But when we follow the link to the original article, not the doctored interpretation of it, we get this-



http://articles.philly.com/2012-08-15/news/33201719_1_voter-id-laws-acceptable-photo-strict-photo-id

Obviously, it's a snap to get your birth certificate and your photo ID in 6 days. Nothing to it.

It's just another deception in the long list of deceptions leading up to & supporting current Repub voter suppression efforts.

The original article references ALEC as pushing these bills nationwide, and here's what a founder of ALEC had to say about it years ago-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GBAsFwPglw

In some counties the offices where BCs are obtained don't exist. In other counties said office is only open once a week.


BTW - To add to the GOP nonsense a company has been hired to assist getting IDs out to people. The head of this company is a Romney bundler. I'm sure they'll do a bang up job :(
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Jhhnn, you are getting pretty loonie - you seem to be imploding under the stress of the election.

You can get a photo ID the same day you go get it, usually in 15 minutes if you go during a non-busy time, maybe 2 hours if you go during the busiest times. Your picture is not drawn by hand you know and they do not fabricate the plastic out of raw materials at the ID center.

How long did it take you to get your driver's license when you went in to have it made? Do you have a driver's license?

And what is so misleading about an article saying "in the designated amount of time" instead of what the exact amount of time is? Unless the time is only an hour, it is VERY VERY VERY easy to get your ID.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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And where are your studies to back up this sweeping conclusion? No, don't spout more empty opinions. Show us the basis of this claim.
The law went into effect in the middle of March. Everyone has had MANY months to get their IDs. What is stopping them, other than being not allowed to get an ID due to being illegal?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Obviously, it's a snap to get your birth certificate and your photo ID in 6 days. Nothing to it.
In some counties the offices where BCs are obtained don't exist. In other counties said office is only open once a week.
They have had since about March 15th (we will say the 16th for fairness sake). That will be 7.5 months by the time the election rolls around. This means they have had about 198 days to get one. You agree that is plenty of time, right? I know the DOT can be slow, but it is not THAT slow.

I know you guys really want to make this into some horrible thing that suddenly removes the right to vote from people, but it does not. What is stopping them from getting their Photo IDs over a 198 day period?
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,670
13,748
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Jhhnn, you are getting pretty loonie - you seem to be imploding under the stress of the election.
Just trying to beat back the lies, your own among them.

You can get a photo ID the same day you go get it, usually in 15 minutes if you go during a non-busy time, maybe 2 hours if you go during the busiest times. Your picture is not drawn by hand you know and they do not fabricate the plastic out of raw materials at the ID center.

How long did it take you to get your driver's license when you went in to have it made? Do you have a driver's license?

And what is so misleading about an article saying "in the designated amount of time" instead of what the exact amount of time is? Unless the time is only an hour, it is VERY VERY VERY easy to get your ID.
More obfuscation, of course. How long does it take to get a birth certificate, particularly when demand is high because of increased voter ID requirements & layoffs at the state & local govt level?

Dunno about Pennsylvania, but it takes abut a week here in Colorado to get an actual picture ID, because the process has been privatized, the original electronic photo sent off for processing & face recognition voodoo, after spending 3 hrs at the DMV, due to cutbacks. I did it in May, had to do so personally because I have a CDL. Some people can renew online, but not over & over, either.

It's misleading because it glosses over the fact that the "designated amount of time" is too short for many people to make their vote count, and we both know it. It even takes more words to perform the obfuscation, indicated a special massage technique has been applied.

"Six days" vs "a designated amount of time". Go figure.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Just trying to beat back the lies, your own among them.
Keep telling yourself that...one day even you might believe it.



More obfuscation, of course. How long does it take to get a birth certificate, particularly when demand is high because of increased voter ID requirements & layoffs at the state & local govt level?

Dunno about Pennsylvania, but it takes abut a week here in Colorado to get an actual picture ID, because the process has been privatized, the original electronic photo sent off for processing & face recognition voodoo, after spending 3 hrs at the DMV, due to cutbacks. I did it in May, had to do so personally because I have a CDL. Some people can renew online, but not over & over, either.
Same day if you do it in person. Three weeks if you do it via the mail (not including delivery times). The replacement certificate is free.

It's misleading because it glosses over the fact that the "designated amount of time" is too short for many people to make their vote count, and we both know it. It even takes more words to perform the obfuscation, indicated a special massage technique has been applied.

"Six days" vs "a designated amount of time". Go figure.
They will have had 198 days (7.5 months) BEFORE those six days. How is that too short an amount of time?
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,670
13,748
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They will have had 198 days (7.5 months) BEFORE those six days. How is that too short an amount of time?
Keep dodging. Why do they need picture ID? to prevent voter fraud, which is nearly the same as needing protection against bigfoot.

If disenfranchisement weren't real, Repubs wouldn't need to obfuscate about provisional ballots & what it takes to turn them into real votes, either.

Nor would they have to break their own rules to move prominent examples of disenfranchisement off the front page, giving picture ID to people who don't meet their criteria.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-cycle/48706334/#48706334

Not likely that they'll do the same for many others, is it? Of course not, because those people won't get personal national publicity.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
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http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/314273/voter-fraud-keystone-state-john-fund?pg=2

The real reason you see Dems squealing like the little piggies they are about voter ID,s
A new poll from Franklin & Marshall College shows that Barack Obama’s lead over Mitt Romney in the Keystone State has fallen to five points (47 percent to 42 percent). Obama led Romney by 48 percent to 36 percent in the last F&M poll in June. An incumbent president without majority support in a state at this point in the race is in danger of not being able to catch up. If Pennsylvania went Republican, it could decide the presidency — after all, the state hasn’t voted for the GOP at the presidential level since 1988, and it has 20 electoral votes. .............
As Judge Simpson noted, anyone who cannot obtain a photo ID is allowed to cast a provisional ballot. Provisional ballots will be counted if the voter can provide officials with a copy of acceptable ID within six days by mail, fax, or e-mail. If a voter is indigent and cannot afford the fee for a copy of his birth certificate, he simply needs to affirm this and his provisional ballot will be counted. “I am not convinced any qualified elector need be disfranchised” by the voter-ID law, Judge Simpson concluded. He also found no problem with the law’s provision that absentee voters must provide the last four digits of their Social Security number or driver’s license, a useful protection against fraud. ...............
The basic problem that opponents of photo-ID laws have is that the American people reject their view that these laws are a tool of voter suppression. The American people view these laws as common sense. In a time when everyone needs ID to buy Sudafed at a drug store, purchase beer, travel by plane or even train, cash a check, enter a federal building, or apply for welfare benefits or a marriage license, showing ID at the polls doesn’t strike the average person as burdensome.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
11,855
3,081
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Voter suppression. Repubs feel they can't win without it or they wouldn't have to be so blatantly obvious about it. It's the only logical explanation why ONLY the Repubs are doing it.

Blatantly obvious. BLA-TANT-LY OB-VI-OUS.

Noone is being fooled by it. Defending these methods of voter suppression just exposes said defender as a person who's willing to do just about anything improper and despicable for their "side" to win. Disgusting.

This kind of attitude always reminds me of Smeagol and his tragic obsession with "my precious".

edit - And yes, I'd feel the same way if Dems were doing it too, but at present, they're not going all-out with it like the Repubs are.
 
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Keep dodging. Why do they need picture ID? to prevent voter fraud, which is nearly the same as needing protection against bigfoot.
You keep pretending bigfoot is a useful comparison, but you are just repeating silly memes which only convince you and no one else; we have actual cases of in person voter fraud.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,670
13,748
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You keep pretending bigfoot is a useful comparison, but you are just repeating silly memes which only convince you and no one else; we have actual cases of in person voter fraud.
Both have about the same chance of affecting electoral integrity.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Both have about the same chance of affecting electoral integrity.
Are you still lying and saying there have never been cases of in person voter fraud in the US? Really?

EDIT: Just so you cannot claim, from this point on, that there is no in person voter fraud in the US, here is proof of it:

Hodges and McLean - who also is facing unrelated charges from this past June - both each participated in early voting at Chavis Heights Community Center in Raleigh and later voted on Election Day at their local fire department polling place, according to court documents.
They also admitted to the charges.
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=8301269
 
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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,574
5
81
The law went into effect in the middle of March. Everyone has had MANY months to get their IDs. What is stopping them, other than being not allowed to get an ID due to being illegal?
In other words, you don't have any studies whatsoever to back up your claim that there's " no damaging effect of requiring voter ID."
 

ModerateRepZero

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2006
1,572
5
81
Are you still lying and saying there have never been cases of in person voter fraud in the US? Really?
Please do not put words into Jhhnn's mouth. He's not denying voter fraud has ever occurred, just that its occurrence is so low that it doesn't undermine elections.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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In other words, you don't have any studies whatsoever to back up your claim that there's " no damaging effect of requiring voter ID."
It is no more damaging than requiring voter registration. Are you against the obvious disenfranchisement caused by voter registration, or are you holding a double standard that disenfranchisement caused by voter registration is OK but by voter ID is not ok?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Please do not put words into Jhhnn's mouth. He's not denying voter fraud has ever occurred, just that its occurrence is so low that it doesn't undermine elections.
Jhhnn claims in person voter fraud is the same as bigfoot. Bigfoot does not exist. To put it in basic math form:

Let A = In Person Voter Fraud
Let B = Bigfoot
Let C = Does Not Exist

According to Jhhnn, A = B and B = C. Therefor A = ?

Yep, the math shows that Jhhnn says A = C. Therefor, Jhhnn is saying in person voter fraud does not exist, which is an obvious lie and the purposeful spreading of misinformation, which is against forum rules.

I have directly proven it to him in this thread, so he can stop "pretending" he does not know.
 

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