Pedro Martinez vs. Roger Clemens

[amcdonald]

Where's the option for the cat on mars?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sideswipe001
Pedro in his prime the best all time? I'll take Sandy Koufax, thank you.

And I haven't seen Pedro strike out 20 in a game before, although I did see him blow it against the Yankees last year in the playoffs. 😉

I'd pick Roger any day. If Pedro went down right now, I wouldn't even vote for him going into the hall.

Well I said 'might' since you could argue that Koufax's prime was better.

Why wouldn't you vote for Pedro for the HOF right now? He should be an automatic selection. Although I hate using the 'waaah, this guy is in the HOF so my guy should be in the HOF', Pedro should be in if Koufax is in.

No fsckinng way. Petey couldn't hold Koufaxes Jock Strap. How many Perfect games or even no hitters does Petey have? How many WS games has he won? Hell that little pussy doesn't even have to face the likes of Bob Gibson or Juan Marichal if he throws at an opposing players. Also keep in mind that during the hieght of his career Koufax suffered from Arthritis and hardly ever missed a turn in the rotation. Hell when Petey's pussy hurts he doesn't even show up to the park!

Pedro has a higher career ERA+ than Koufax, Pedro is the greatest of all time in ERA+. Pedro has the 2nd highest K/9 EVER (only behind Big Unit). He has the BEST BB+Hits allowed/9 EVER. He has a lower career ERA than Koufax. This was done in Fenway Park, where even Erstad (the small Anaheim shortstop) could post Barry Bonds like SLG%. Koufax pitched in cavernous LA! And what about the DH that Pedro has to face at Fenway? What about Pedro accomplishing all of this in one of the best hitting eras EVER? Look at 1999, and 2000, .275 and .276 was the AL AVERAGE when Pedro had his best two years. ? Look at 1957-1966 NL league averages, it was around .260. The proof is right there.

Opposing teams HAVE beaned Boston players when Pedro threw at them... you must be misinformed (it's not as prevalent today b/c the umps will eject anyone throwing now, yes we play in a pussy era). We all know that WS wins are a function of TEAM. In most INDIVIDUAL categories of dominance Pedro is better per inning pitched. No hitters mean nothing, it's a function of your team's DEFENSE (Boston has never had a good defense since Pedro was there, they're ranked third this year in errors for example) and a little luck (how many players could we name who threw at least two no no's or a perfect game that SUCKED for their career?). Unless Koufax struck out 27 batters in a game for a perfect game or no no, then your argument is very weak.

Koufax pitching with arthritis was exactly why his career was ended early, he was a dumbf*ck and didn't listen to his body and thought he was Rambo. And it's why Pedro's cumulative stats will, if not already, have surpassed Koufax's this year besides owning him in career ERA+, career ERA, single season ERA+, K/9, BB+H/9, etc. Koufax only pitched 10 seasons with 100 or more IP, what a sissy! Pedro has pitched 11 already, and he probably still has 3 more good years left even with his velocity down.

 

[Ranger X]

Originally posted by: BostonRedSox
Pedro in 1999-2000 was probably the best pitcher of all time.

Best pitcher of all time?

Pedro 1999-2000
23-4, ERA 2.07, 313K's, 5CG, 1 Shutout

That was one hell of a year but to make such a bold statement is anything but accurate.

Here's one that someone said earlier.
Sandy Koufax 1965
26-8, ERA 2.04, 382K's, 27 CG, 8 Shutouts

or

Sandy Koufax 1963
25-5, ERA 1.88, 306K's, 20 CG, 11 Shutouts

or

Doc Gooden 1985
24-4, ERA 1.53, 268K's, 16CG, 8 Shutouts

 

[Led Zeppelin]

It's no use Demon, they see everything through rose-colored glasses.

 

[Ranger X]

Originally posted by: BostonRedSox
It's no use Demon, they see everything through rose-colored glasses.

I thought we were evaluating the best season a pitcher had during his prime, NOT his entire career.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sideswipe001
Pedro in his prime the best all time? I'll take Sandy Koufax, thank you.

And I haven't seen Pedro strike out 20 in a game before, although I did see him blow it against the Yankees last year in the playoffs. 😉

I'd pick Roger any day. If Pedro went down right now, I wouldn't even vote for him going into the hall.

Well I said 'might' since you could argue that Koufax's prime was better.

Why wouldn't you vote for Pedro for the HOF right now? He should be an automatic selection. Although I hate using the 'waaah, this guy is in the HOF so my guy should be in the HOF', Pedro should be in if Koufax is in.

No fsckinng way. Petey couldn't hold Koufaxes Jock Strap. How many Perfect games or even no hitters does Petey have? How many WS games has he won? Hell that little pussy doesn't even have to face the likes of Bob Gibson or Juan Marichal if he throws at an opposing players. Also keep in mind that during the hieght of his career Koufax suffered from Arthritis and hardly ever missed a turn in the rotation. Hell when Petey's pussy hurts he doesn't even show up to the park!

Pedro has a higher career ERA+ than Koufax, Pedro is the greatest of all time in ERA+. Pedro has the 2nd highest K/9 EVER (only behind Big Unit). He has the BEST BB+Hits allowed/9 EVER. This was done in Fenway Park, where even Erstad (the small Anaheim shortstop) could post Barry Bonds like SLG%. Koufax pitched in cavernous LA! And what about the DH that Pedro has to face at Fenway? What about Pedro accomplishing all of this in one of the best hitting eras ever? lol

Opposing teams HAVE beaned Boston players when Pedro threw at them... you must be misinformed (it's not as prevalent today b/c the umps will eject anyone throwing now, yes we play in a pussy era). We all know that WS wins are a function of TEAM. In most INDIVIDUAL categories of dominance Pedro is better per inning pitched. No hitters mean nothing, it's a function of your team's DEFENSE (Boston has never had a good defense since Pedro was there, they're ranked third this year in errors for example) and a little luck (how many players could we name who threw at least two no no's or a perfect game that SUCKED for their career?). Unless Koufax struck out 27 batters in a game for a perfect game or no no, then your argument is very weak.

Koufax pitching with arthritis was exactly why his career was ended early, he was a dumbf*ck and didn't listen to his body. And it's why Pedro's cumulative stats will, if not already, have surpassed Koufax's this year.

Pedro's stats are so good because he pitched in the era of Specialized Closers. If he had to pitch into the 8 and 9th innings like Koufax did most of his career his ERA would be much higher. For the last 5 years of Koufaxes Career he was the most dominant pitcher ever in modern times which is saying a lot because during his era the pitchers were extremely dominant (not watered down due to expansion)

It's also one thing to have a fellow player thrown at it's totally another to be thrown at yourself. As puny as Petey is I seriously doubt that any pitcher would be afraid of throwing at him if he batted himself.

Koufax was the greatest pitcher in the era of the Great. As for him being a dumbass pitching with Arthritis, keep in mind that they didn't have the Medical Treatments available. Also having to pitch as much as he did definately contributed to his physical decline. If someone like Koufax were to pitch today, especially in the AL, his stats would be the greatest ever and his career would have lasted much longer (He did go out on top mind you)

As for No Hitters and his dominance during the last 5 years of his career, he needed all of that because the Dodgers were an extremely weak offensive team yet he lead them to World Series Victories in spite of that.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sideswipe001
Pedro in his prime the best all time? I'll take Sandy Koufax, thank you.

And I haven't seen Pedro strike out 20 in a game before, although I did see him blow it against the Yankees last year in the playoffs. 😉

I'd pick Roger any day. If Pedro went down right now, I wouldn't even vote for him going into the hall.

Well I said 'might' since you could argue that Koufax's prime was better.

Why wouldn't you vote for Pedro for the HOF right now? He should be an automatic selection. Although I hate using the 'waaah, this guy is in the HOF so my guy should be in the HOF', Pedro should be in if Koufax is in.

No fsckinng way. Petey couldn't hold Koufaxes Jock Strap. How many Perfect games or even no hitters does Petey have? How many WS games has he won? Hell that little pussy doesn't even have to face the likes of Bob Gibson or Juan Marichal if he throws at an opposing players. Also keep in mind that during the hieght of his career Koufax suffered from Arthritis and hardly ever missed a turn in the rotation. Hell when Petey's pussy hurts he doesn't even show up to the park!

Pedro has a higher career ERA+ than Koufax, Pedro is the greatest of all time in ERA+. Pedro has the 2nd highest K/9 EVER (only behind Big Unit). He has the BEST BB+Hits allowed/9 EVER. This was done in Fenway Park, where even Erstad (the small Anaheim shortstop) could post Barry Bonds like SLG%. Koufax pitched in cavernous LA! And what about the DH that Pedro has to face at Fenway? What about Pedro accomplishing all of this in one of the best hitting eras ever? lol

Opposing teams HAVE beaned Boston players when Pedro threw at them... you must be misinformed (it's not as prevalent today b/c the umps will eject anyone throwing now, yes we play in a pussy era). We all know that WS wins are a function of TEAM. In most INDIVIDUAL categories of dominance Pedro is better per inning pitched. No hitters mean nothing, it's a function of your team's DEFENSE (Boston has never had a good defense since Pedro was there, they're ranked third this year in errors for example) and a little luck (how many players could we name who threw at least two no no's or a perfect game that SUCKED for their career?). Unless Koufax struck out 27 batters in a game for a perfect game or no no, then your argument is very weak.

Koufax pitching with arthritis was exactly why his career was ended early, he was a dumbf*ck and didn't listen to his body. And it's why Pedro's cumulative stats will, if not already, have surpassed Koufax's this year.

Pedro's stats are so good because he pitched in the era of Specialized Closers. If he had to pitch into the 8 and 9th innings like Koufax did most of his career his ERA would be much higher. For the last 5 years of Koufaxes Career he was the most dominant pitcher ever in modern times which is saying a lot because during his era the pitchers were extremely dominant (not watered down due to expansion)

It's also one thing to have a fellow player thrown at it's totally another to be thrown at yourself. As puny as Petey is I seriously doubt that any pitcher would be afraid of throwing at him if he batted himself.

Koufax was the greatest pitcher in the era of the Great. As for him being a dumbass pitching with Arthritis, keep in mind that they didn't have the Medical Treatments available. Also having to pitch as much as he did definately contributed to his physical decline. If someone like Koufax were to pitch today, especially in the AL, his stats would be the greatest ever and his career would have lasted much longer (He did go out on top mind you)

As for No Hitters and his dominance during the last 5 years of his career, he needed all of that because the Dodgers were an extremely weak offensive team yet he lead them to World Series Victories in spite of that.

So you are saying that Pedro's numbers are so good b/c he didn't have to pitch when he was tired in the later innings, whereas Koufax had to. That is about the only argument I could think of for Koufax, and even that is suspect... and it's obvious that's why his career was cut short (I agree that physical therapy/surgery wasn't as advanced as it is today).

It's impossible to tell if Koufax was tired or not in the later innings, for all we know he was just as strong in the 1st as the 9th... Clemens is like that, he could go for the whole game and not miss a beat b/c he's so strong... we do know that Pedro tires around the 7th b/c he's not that big (5-11, 170). Koufax was 6ft 2, 210 lbs, a BIG GUY. Both Clemens and Schilling are 6-4, around 215, and both can go the distance easily and never want to be taken out of the game. Who's to say that Koufax wasn't built like that? He was a very big guy, and probably could have taken himself out of the game if he felt weaker... he rarely did though. Pedro has pitched 2079 innings so far, Koufax has pitched 2324... after this season we will compare career era again, and see if Pedro is still lower (since he will catch 2324 innings this year if he stays healthy) or higher. I think even if Pedro has an off year, his ERA will still be lower than Koufax's after this season... (right now it's 2.58 vs 2.76)

 

[Lager]

Pedro damnit! Under 2.00 ERA = Anything.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Ranger X

Originally posted by: BostonRedSox
Pedro in 1999-2000 was probably the best pitcher of all time.

Best pitcher of all time?

Pedro 1999-2000
23-4, ERA 2.07, 313K's, 5CG, 1 Shutout

That was one hell of a year but to make such a bold statement is anything but accurate.

Here's one that someone said earlier.
Sandy Koufax 1965
26-8, ERA 2.04, 382K's, 27 CG, 8 Shutouts

or

Sandy Koufax 1963
25-5, ERA 1.88, 306K's, 20 CG, 11 Shutouts

or

Doc Gooden 1985
24-4, ERA 1.53, 268K's, 16CG, 8 Shutouts

Now compare all of their ERA's to the league average. That is why Pedro has the most dominant ERA+ ever! Why is Doc Gooden ranked 12th on this single season ERA+ list? and Pedro ranked 2nd (2000) and 9th (1999) and Koufax 55th? Your answer is right there who had the best years of your example above.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Ranger X

Originally posted by: BostonRedSox
It's no use Demon, they see everything through rose-colored glasses.

I thought we were evaluating the best season a pitcher had during his prime, NOT his entire career.

So when was Roger Clemens PRIME? Was it 1997, when he only threw 93mph-95mph, or was it 1990 when he threw 98mph and only had a four seamer and slider? He had phenomenal years statistically both times. Was his prime the area between those two years? That's why we're taking the 2 best years, I was taking 1 best from when he was the "Rocket" and one from his split fingered era.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sideswipe001
Pedro in his prime the best all time? I'll take Sandy Koufax, thank you.

And I haven't seen Pedro strike out 20 in a game before, although I did see him blow it against the Yankees last year in the playoffs. 😉

I'd pick Roger any day. If Pedro went down right now, I wouldn't even vote for him going into the hall.

Well I said 'might' since you could argue that Koufax's prime was better.

Why wouldn't you vote for Pedro for the HOF right now? He should be an automatic selection. Although I hate using the 'waaah, this guy is in the HOF so my guy should be in the HOF', Pedro should be in if Koufax is in.

No fsckinng way. Petey couldn't hold Koufaxes Jock Strap. How many Perfect games or even no hitters does Petey have? How many WS games has he won? Hell that little pussy doesn't even have to face the likes of Bob Gibson or Juan Marichal if he throws at an opposing players. Also keep in mind that during the hieght of his career Koufax suffered from Arthritis and hardly ever missed a turn in the rotation. Hell when Petey's pussy hurts he doesn't even show up to the park!

Pedro has a higher career ERA+ than Koufax, Pedro is the greatest of all time in ERA+. Pedro has the 2nd highest K/9 EVER (only behind Big Unit). He has the BEST BB+Hits allowed/9 EVER. This was done in Fenway Park, where even Erstad (the small Anaheim shortstop) could post Barry Bonds like SLG%. Koufax pitched in cavernous LA! And what about the DH that Pedro has to face at Fenway? What about Pedro accomplishing all of this in one of the best hitting eras ever? lol

Opposing teams HAVE beaned Boston players when Pedro threw at them... you must be misinformed (it's not as prevalent today b/c the umps will eject anyone throwing now, yes we play in a pussy era). We all know that WS wins are a function of TEAM. In most INDIVIDUAL categories of dominance Pedro is better per inning pitched. No hitters mean nothing, it's a function of your team's DEFENSE (Boston has never had a good defense since Pedro was there, they're ranked third this year in errors for example) and a little luck (how many players could we name who threw at least two no no's or a perfect game that SUCKED for their career?). Unless Koufax struck out 27 batters in a game for a perfect game or no no, then your argument is very weak.

Koufax pitching with arthritis was exactly why his career was ended early, he was a dumbf*ck and didn't listen to his body. And it's why Pedro's cumulative stats will, if not already, have surpassed Koufax's this year.

Pedro's stats are so good because he pitched in the era of Specialized Closers. If he had to pitch into the 8 and 9th innings like Koufax did most of his career his ERA would be much higher. For the last 5 years of Koufaxes Career he was the most dominant pitcher ever in modern times which is saying a lot because during his era the pitchers were extremely dominant (not watered down due to expansion)

It's also one thing to have a fellow player thrown at it's totally another to be thrown at yourself. As puny as Petey is I seriously doubt that any pitcher would be afraid of throwing at him if he batted himself.

Koufax was the greatest pitcher in the era of the Great. As for him being a dumbass pitching with Arthritis, keep in mind that they didn't have the Medical Treatments available. Also having to pitch as much as he did definately contributed to his physical decline. If someone like Koufax were to pitch today, especially in the AL, his stats would be the greatest ever and his career would have lasted much longer (He did go out on top mind you)

As for No Hitters and his dominance during the last 5 years of his career, he needed all of that because the Dodgers were an extremely weak offensive team yet he lead them to World Series Victories in spite of that.

So you are saying that Pedro's numbers are so good b/c he didn't have to pitch when he was tired in the later innings, whereas Koufax had to. That is about the only argument I could think of for Koufax, and even that is suspect... and it's obvious that's why his career was cut short (I agree that physical therapy/surgery wasn't as advanced as it is today).

It's impossible to tell if Koufax was tired or not in the later innings, for all we know he was just as strong in the 1st as the 9th... Clemens is like that, he could go for the whole game and not miss a beat b/c he's so strong... we do know that Pedro tires around the 7th b/c he's not that big (5-11, 170). Koufax was 6ft 2, 210 lbs, a BIG GUY. Both Clemens and Schilling are 6-4, around 215, and both can go the distance easily and never want to be taken out of the game. Who's to say that Koufax wasn't built like that? He was a very big guy, and probably could have taken himself out of the game if he felt weaker... he rarely did though. Pedro has pitched 2079 innings so far, Koufax has pitched 2324... after this season we will compare career era again, and see if Pedro is still lower (since he will catch 2324 innings this year if he stays healthy) or higher. I think even if Pedro has an off year, his ERA will still be lower than Koufax's after this season... (right now it's 2.58 vs 2.76)

For the first part of Koufax's career his ERA was over 3.00 so it can be said that Petey was better in comparison at the begging of his career compared to Koufax at the beggining of his (accounting for his 2.76 ERA) but when Koufax hit his prime Petey couldn't touch him.

 

[RabidMongoose]

I think that we're all forgetting some of the most important things. When you take these into account, then Pedro isn't even one of the top 1000 starting pitchers of all time.

1. Pedro has no heart - He doesn't care about winning. That's why he has no world series ring and why he couldn't beat the Yankees last season.
2. Pedro is the all time biggest clubhouse cancer. He is a complete distraction to the team. He only thinks about himself. This in itself probably costs the team at least 30 wins.
3. Pedro is a coward. He's a crybaby coward that cries and he tries to beat up 70 year old men because he likes to think that it'll make him manly.
4. Pedro is frail. He can't even pitch over 200 innings anymore.

In conclusion, Pedro sucks.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I think that we're all forgetting some of the most important things. When you take these into account, then Pedro isn't even one of the top 1000 starting pitchers of all time.

1. Pedro has no heart - He doesn't care about winning. That's why he has no world series ring and why he couldn't beat the Yankees last season.
2. Pedro is the all time biggest clubhouse cancer. He is a complete distraction to the team. He only thinks about himself. This in itself probably costs the team at least 30 wins.
3. Pedro is a coward. He's a crybaby coward that cries and he tries to beat up 70 year old men because he likes to think that it'll make him manly.
4. Pedro is frail. He can't even pitch over 200 innings anymore.

In conclusion, Pedro sucks.

He didn't beat the Yankees because he made a bad pitch, not because of his heart.
Where do you get that 30 game number from?
To be fair, Zimmer charged HIM.

I'm no Pedro fan, but let's be fair here.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I think that we're all forgetting some of the most important things. When you take these into account, then Pedro isn't even one of the top 1000 starting pitchers of all time.

1. Pedro has no heart - He doesn't care about winning. That's why he has no world series ring and why he couldn't beat the Yankees last season.
2. Pedro is the all time biggest clubhouse cancer. He is a complete distraction to the team. He only thinks about himself. This in itself probably costs the team at least 30 wins.
3. Pedro is a coward. He's a crybaby coward that cries and he tries to beat up 70 year old men because he likes to think that it'll make him manly.
4. Pedro is frail. He can't even pitch over 200 innings anymore.

In conclusion, Pedro sucks.

He didn't beat the Yankees because he made a bad pitch, not because of his heart.
Where do you get that 30 game number from?
To be fair, Zimmer charged HIM.

I'm no Pedro fan, but let's be fair here.

I am being fair here. I called him a coward crybaby cancer instead of a whiney little b!tch.

(that entire post was a joke)

 

[thawolfman]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
The Rocket.

:beer:

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sideswipe001
Pedro in his prime the best all time? I'll take Sandy Koufax, thank you.

And I haven't seen Pedro strike out 20 in a game before, although I did see him blow it against the Yankees last year in the playoffs. 😉

I'd pick Roger any day. If Pedro went down right now, I wouldn't even vote for him going into the hall.

Well I said 'might' since you could argue that Koufax's prime was better.

Why wouldn't you vote for Pedro for the HOF right now? He should be an automatic selection. Although I hate using the 'waaah, this guy is in the HOF so my guy should be in the HOF', Pedro should be in if Koufax is in.

No fsckinng way. Petey couldn't hold Koufaxes Jock Strap. How many Perfect games or even no hitters does Petey have? How many WS games has he won? Hell that little pussy doesn't even have to face the likes of Bob Gibson or Juan Marichal if he throws at an opposing players. Also keep in mind that during the hieght of his career Koufax suffered from Arthritis and hardly ever missed a turn in the rotation. Hell when Petey's pussy hurts he doesn't even show up to the park!

Pedro has a higher career ERA+ than Koufax, Pedro is the greatest of all time in ERA+. Pedro has the 2nd highest K/9 EVER (only behind Big Unit). He has the BEST BB+Hits allowed/9 EVER. This was done in Fenway Park, where even Erstad (the small Anaheim shortstop) could post Barry Bonds like SLG%. Koufax pitched in cavernous LA! And what about the DH that Pedro has to face at Fenway? What about Pedro accomplishing all of this in one of the best hitting eras ever? lol

Opposing teams HAVE beaned Boston players when Pedro threw at them... you must be misinformed (it's not as prevalent today b/c the umps will eject anyone throwing now, yes we play in a pussy era). We all know that WS wins are a function of TEAM. In most INDIVIDUAL categories of dominance Pedro is better per inning pitched. No hitters mean nothing, it's a function of your team's DEFENSE (Boston has never had a good defense since Pedro was there, they're ranked third this year in errors for example) and a little luck (how many players could we name who threw at least two no no's or a perfect game that SUCKED for their career?). Unless Koufax struck out 27 batters in a game for a perfect game or no no, then your argument is very weak.

Koufax pitching with arthritis was exactly why his career was ended early, he was a dumbf*ck and didn't listen to his body. And it's why Pedro's cumulative stats will, if not already, have surpassed Koufax's this year.

Pedro's stats are so good because he pitched in the era of Specialized Closers. If he had to pitch into the 8 and 9th innings like Koufax did most of his career his ERA would be much higher. For the last 5 years of Koufaxes Career he was the most dominant pitcher ever in modern times which is saying a lot because during his era the pitchers were extremely dominant (not watered down due to expansion)

It's also one thing to have a fellow player thrown at it's totally another to be thrown at yourself. As puny as Petey is I seriously doubt that any pitcher would be afraid of throwing at him if he batted himself.

Koufax was the greatest pitcher in the era of the Great. As for him being a dumbass pitching with Arthritis, keep in mind that they didn't have the Medical Treatments available. Also having to pitch as much as he did definately contributed to his physical decline. If someone like Koufax were to pitch today, especially in the AL, his stats would be the greatest ever and his career would have lasted much longer (He did go out on top mind you)

As for No Hitters and his dominance during the last 5 years of his career, he needed all of that because the Dodgers were an extremely weak offensive team yet he lead them to World Series Victories in spite of that.

the problem with this argument is, Pedro's ERA was SOO much better than everyone elses. we are speaking comparatively vs his contemporaries. so if he benefited from the closer so did everyone else that pitched during the same era and yet Pedro's ERA was soo much better.

Koufax didn't dominate his contemporaries as much.

 

[pmoa]

jaydee your stat is incorrect at the bottom about WS. its not 0 its 3

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
the problem with this argument is, Pedro's ERA was SOO much better than everyone elses. we are speaking comparatively vs his contemporaries. so if he benefited from the closer so did everyone else that pitched during the same era and yet Pedro's ERA was soo much better.

Koufax didn't dominate his contemporaries as much.

Yeah he did! He was the greatest during the era of great pitchers. I was lucky enough to be around when he palyed so I don't have to depend on stats and what eveybody else says. Pedro is great but he's no Koufax..or Dysdale, or Gibson or even Carlton or Nolan!

Compared to them he's just a boy!

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
the problem with this argument is, Pedro's ERA was SOO much better than everyone elses. we are speaking comparatively vs his contemporaries. so if he benefited from the closer so did everyone else that pitched during the same era and yet Pedro's ERA was soo much better.

Koufax didn't dominate his contemporaries as much.

Yeah he did! He was the greatest during the era of great pitchers. I was lucky enough to be around when he palyed so I don't have to depend on stats and what eveybody else says. Pedro is great but he's no Koufax..or Dysdale, or Gibson or even Carlton or Nolan!

Compared to them he's just a boy!

Um Nolan Ryan and Steve Carlton weren't even in the same ERA as Koufax, lol. Pedro has better prime numbers than all of them that relate to dominance (career ERA, career ERA+, single season ERA, single season ERA+, K/9, BB+H/9, etc); notice how you haven't used any statistics to back you beliefs... why? Because statistically none of them can touch Pedro's 1999-2000 seasons, end of story (PS look at Don Drysdale's career stats compared to Curt Schilling's, they are practically identical, if he's in the HOF then Schill should be too...).

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
the problem with this argument is, Pedro's ERA was SOO much better than everyone elses. we are speaking comparatively vs his contemporaries. so if he benefited from the closer so did everyone else that pitched during the same era and yet Pedro's ERA was soo much better.

Koufax didn't dominate his contemporaries as much.

Yeah he did! He was the greatest during the era of great pitchers. I was lucky enough to be around when he palyed so I don't have to depend on stats and what eveybody else says. Pedro is great but he's no Koufax..or Dysdale, or Gibson or even Carlton or Nolan!

Compared to them he's just a boy!

Um Nolan Ryan and Steve Carlton weren't even in the same ERA as Koufax, lol. Pedro has better prime numbers than all of them that relate to dominance (career ERA, career ERA+, single season ERA, single season ERA+, K/9, BB+H/9, etc); notice how you haven't used any statistics to back you beliefs... why? Because statistically none of them can touch Pedro's 1999-2000 seasons, end of story (PS look at Don Drysdale's career stats compared to Curt Schilling's, they are practically identical, if he's in the HOF then Schill should be too...).

One season does not a career make. Koufax had 5 seasons in a row that were comparable or better than Petey's 99-2000 season

IMO Shilling is the Stud of the Red Sox PS, not Petey!

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Pedro by far.

 

[wkabel23]

Pedro, no contest.

 

[RedPickle]

nolan ryan

 

[RedPickle]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: jkasmann
What about Pedro's performance in big games? It doesn't matter how low his season ERA is if he can't do it in the clutch, and did anyone see the ALCS last year? Pedro lost it when the team really needed him. Clemens and the Yankees won a bunch of world series titles.

Even if Pedro was better in 2000, until he wins it in the clutch, I can't say I would take him in a huge game.

Read my post above:
Pedro in his prime years: 1999 - one game started against Cleveland in the opening round: 2.70ERA, 10 innings pitched, 5K's in a loss (good but not dominant). Next round against World Series champs NYY: started one game, went 1-0, 0.00 ERA, 7 Innings pitched, TWELVE K's against the champs!! You have your answer right there.

Pedro HAS won the big game in the prime of his career(1999-2000), do some research before talking please.

Funny, even though this thread is about the past, when reminded of 1918, Red Sox fans always tell us Yankee fans to stop living in the past. :roll: