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PCIe vs AGP

dante2010

Junior Member
So I'm in the market to buy a new computer. I've read some articles on here about what MB/Processor to go with.

I had one all picked out (Asus A8N-E NF4U S939 PCIe Mainboard), but then found out that since it was a PCIe board, that I couldn't use my AGP card in it. I am not in the market to buy a new video card at the moment, as I just purchased one about 6 months ago.

So, my question is this.. what are the differences between a PCIe card and an AGP one? Is there a major speed difference?

Are there MBs that allow you to use AGP as well as PCIe? I'd really like to get one with PCIe for the time that I upgrade to such a card. Having to buy a new MB at the same time would suck.

 
Welcome to the forums.

There are (currently) no speed differences between the AGP and PCI-E versions of the same video card. The main advantages of PCI-E motherboards/video cards right now are upgradability (since AGP is on its way out), and also there are a few instances in which the PCI-E version of a card is actually cheaper than the AGP version (6600GT, X800XL) - or in the case at the ultra high-end right now (7800GTX), the card only exists in PCI-E.

Also, there are currently no viable motherboards that support AGP alongside with PCI-E. There have been a few solutions that basically throw an AGP slot on the PCI bus (performs badly, as you may imagine). There is supposedly a ULi chipset that enables a true combination of the two slot types on a board, but to my knowledge there are no current boards using the chipset.
 
Originally posted by: dante2010

So, my question is this.. what are the differences between a PCIe card and an AGP one? Is there a major speed difference?

Are there MBs that allow you to use AGP as well as PCIe? I'd really like to get one with PCIe for the time that I upgrade to such a card. Having to buy a new MB at the same time would suck.

Performance difference between PCIe and AGP today is almost non-existent. PCIe allows you to have the option of dual graphics cards - ala SLI. Since you are not considering this option, I wont dwell on it.

"If you already have a very nice AGP video card, then by all means spring for an nForce3 AGP motherboard on Socket 939. However, there are several things to consider first; expect to see Socket M2 DDR2 processors from AMD early next year with very little AGP support if any. Also, start to expect product launches (like G70/7800GTX) showing up en masse for PCIe, with AGP support just trickling in behind (or lacking altogether for high-end)." - Anandtech

You could sell your current AGP card to help recoup the cost. You could get AGP 939 board and hope that ATI or Nvidia release their latest GPUs on AGP one last time. AFter this generation I doubt they'll have high-end agp cards as those will be bottlenecked by slow cpus (because S754 and S478 only support cpus to some adequate speed).

Your other option would be to simply keep EVERYTHING you have and only upgrade the graphics card in AGP - given that the rest of your system is good enough. Perhaps getting a new graphics card now will offer you the best bang for the buck until you switch to dual-core cpus, DDR2, new AMD socket and so on next year.
 
pci-e was invented for the sole purpose of dual video cards. it does not grant a single bit of performance over agp, unfortunatley. i wish it did because i sitll see no reason to upgrade before your current agp computer goes.
 
Thanks for the replies guys.

I'll have to think about this some more. Maybe you could tell me what sort of performance boost I'd get out of the following config, as related to my current setup:

Current System:
Athlon 1700+ XP
512MB PC2700 Memory X 2
Gforce FX 5600 256MB

New System:
AMD Athlon64 3000+ S939 Processor
Asus A8N-E NF4U S939 PCIe Mainboard
512MB PC3200 DDR Memory (BRAND NAME) X 2
Asus GFX 6600GT 128MB DH PCI-E Video Card w/TV-OUT

 
.. also, I'm seeing discussion about venice vs winchester processors.

How do I tell the difference? What is the difference? Should I care? I'm not looking to overclock anything with my system.
 
Originally posted by: SynthDude2001
There are (currently) no speed differences between the AGP and PCI-E versions of the same video card.
6600 GT AGP has 900 MHz memory clock frequency, while the PCIe version has 1000 MHz/1 GHz.

 
i must advise against you going with the ASUS motherboard you will regret it

go spend the money on one of the DFI motherboards. the asus is junk.

here is a thread right here with people talking about those 2 boards.
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=29&threadid=1588415

google also has plenty of other info.

take your money and buy the DFI board with the 4 phase power and 4v vdimm right out of the box and the fact that DFI caters to the overclocker the DFI is gunna just rock your world.

ASUS has done nothing for several years now but let down the consumers. From shadey support to absolutely rediculous overclocking (meaning little to no overclocking) horrible voltage settings pci/ago locks that dont work or are sketchy.

stay with the DFI version and you wont regret it.
not to mention there are TONS of modded bios's that help this board out alot!

Also go get yourself a 3200+ Venice they are $190 friggin bucks at newegg.

i am sooo almost ready to get my credit card and buy that bad boy!! they are better performan and run MUCH MUCH cooler.

Originally posted by: Algere
Originally posted by: SynthDude2001
There are (currently) no speed differences between the AGP and PCI-E versions of the same video card.
6600 GT AGP has 900 MHz memory clock frequency, while the PCIe version has 1000 MHz/1 GHz.

100mhz HAHAH please man so your gunna say that makes the pci-e better?

that doesnt mean the PCI-E version is better

simply put there is no performance increase by going to PCI E or very little. its SURELY does NOT warrent shelling out another 150+ for a PCI E mobo.

the only reason for most to go to that platform now is because the world thinks that PCI Express is the shiznit or for SLI/Crossfire.
and for the love of god SLI DOESNT EVEN WORK FOR ALMOST ALL THE GAMES THAT ARE OUT NOW!! IT DOESNT WORK! even creating custom profiles and hacks doesnt allow SLI to run the way its meant to.

i said when PCI-E first started coming out (prior to actual retail launch) that pci express was nothing special.
you need to understand that 8x AGP has the abilities to shove enormous amounts of data and yet they refuse to use it. all they do is create a new standard which they STILL havent tapped into. which forces the consumer to spend more money then they need to.

not to sound like a conspiracist but pc designers do this to create revenue for themselves.

PCI express maybe around for a while but there is NOTHING in PCI Express that 8x AGP cant do already. and bloody hell YES dual AGP slots could have been used for SLI!! power consumption ? bah bullcrap.
look at the 7800 series it takes less power to run and performs better. funny agp slots cant give the power thats needed. bull crap
look at the venice chips and the Dothan's this is the whole point of technology from here on out. Less power consumption and more power output.
i laughed whenever i read articles about AGP not being able to handle the next gen cards cuz its a bullsh|t lie forced down our throats to make us believe pci express is the next level of video interfaces on a motherboard. its all bullcrap.
but its too late cuz the masses have embrassed it now we have no choice but to upgrade to it and for what ?
for a $1000 super video rig ? that $1000 is the videos card alone.
oh im sorry $1200 if you go with a 7800 series SLI
or $300 for a nice 6600 GT SLI rig which when overclock friggin scream for a 300 SLI setup. when SLI is working btw.

PCI Express has the ability to shove way way more data than AGP but if they cant even use agp to its fullest what makes you think they would use PCI-E to its fullest ?
the same technology that drives pci express has driven pc's for years. its called your northbridge chipset. its the same thing(to a degree). It's how pc's can handle such insane amounts of data shoveling . they just thought that video cards needed the same backbone. and they do.. but there isnt a card made yet that can push the pci-e or agp bus. it would be truly truly nice to see a 7800 GTX AGP version cuz i can almost bet you would see very little performance difference.


anyways im off my soap box...

get the DFI my friend.. drop that asus.
 
Originally posted by: Algere
Originally posted by: SynthDude2001
There are (currently) no speed differences between the AGP and PCI-E versions of the same video card.
6600 GT AGP has 900 MHz memory clock frequency, while the PCIe version has 1000 MHz/1 GHz.

Ah, I was not aware of that. Thanks for the correction.

I think my point still stands in a general sense though - PCI-E alone does not give any performance boost. 😉
 
Originally posted by: SuperTyphoon
pci-e was invented for the sole purpose of dual video cards. it does not grant a single bit of performance over agp, unfortunatley. i wish it did because i sitll see no reason to upgrade before your current agp computer goes.

Thats not entirely true. PCIe wasn't invented for the sole purpose of running dual video cards. It was invented to address the shortcommings with AGP. AGP only provides 30 to 35 watts of power, its a uni-directional bus, etc. PCIe offers a bi-directional bus, and 70 to 75 watts of power directly to the video card. The increased bandwidth it provides doesn't offer any performance benefit at the highend, however that increase in bandwidth allows for significant gains in the integrated and low end market. (TurboCarche/HyperMemory)

PCIe is a far superior interface than AGP, and we should transition as quickly as possible.

Edit - Something to add on the DFI NF4 boards. They come will next to no documentation. I just built a system for my roommate around the DFI Lanparty NF4 Ultra board. I'm not new to building machines, but even I found the documentation lacking. I've gotten comics from fast food restaurants that are longer. 😛

I like Asus boards, never had a single problem with them. Since you aren't looking to overclock, the DFI board shouldn't be first on your list. Especially if its one of your first system builds.
 
Well I'm not going to overclock anything. I've also had asus boards in the past and I've never had a problem with them. If the only benifit of the DFI board is the OC ability, I think I'll just stick with the asus.

So how about the performance boost between systems? Will it be a large one?

Also, what is the difference between a venice processor and a regular one? Any store I've looked at never lists them as venice or something else.. how do I tell the difference?
 
for you, i actually recommend asus. the DFI has compatibility issues with some hardware and for a new builder, it's not the ideal motherboard. Asus is great. i have many asus products, as far back as a motherboard with a still functional 486 DX 33mhz to my newest Amd64 3300+(oem chip 2.4ghz,256kb chache). Not a single problem except for that time i fried my newest board with static electricity but still got an RMA approved anyway.

there really isnt a performance difference between them the DFI and Asus anyway.

winchester on the other hand is venice minus a new memory controller. Venice ocs better(supposedly)because its designed with SOI(silicon on insulator technology, prevents current leaks between transistors), has a memory controller allowing you to use 4 stiks of ram at pc3200 speeds(winchester forces pc2700 speed) and 1t timings(for 1 sided ram) insteal of 2 t timings.

in conclusion, to yuo, that means venice allows you to rum more ram at a faster data rate and better timings when all 4 slots of your motherboard are filled.
 
Ok, so what if I am only going to fill 2 memory slots on my MB, with PC3200 RAM. Will the winchester force them to run at PC2700, or is that just when you are using all 4?

How can I tell if I am purchasing a venice chip? The store I will be buying from doesn't list a difference between the Athlon64 chips they offer for sale.
 
SuperTyphoon, BTW PCI-E wasnt invented just to run 2x gpu's it was made to get rid of the old pci bus which has a 133MB sec limit and therefor harddrives cant go any faster than the pci bus even my onboard silicon sata controler goes through the pci bus so even though my sata claims 150MB sec it will never goby 133MB even if i had 2 hdds fast enough and in raid 0.

Sata 300 drives and mobos (some good makes of NF4) have sata 300 controlers and as they have pci-e, so they could get over the 133MB bottleneck if the actual hardrives could perform as fast.

In 2007 we are gonna see sata 600, but i go no idea how they gonna get a mechanical harddrive to even use that bandwidth, possibly the new samsung drives that are gonna be hybrids in 2006, they are fast HDD's with a 1gig buffer memory chip that caches 1gig to and from ram before reading or writing to or from the platters.

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=4409

Hope thats correct link, cause there is 2 version, 1 is the above i mention for perfomance, the other is for laptops to save battery life by idling the hardrive most of the time.
 
Originally posted by: dante2010
Thanks for the replies guys.

I'll have to think about this some more. Maybe you could tell me what sort of performance boost I'd get out of the following config, as related to my current setup:

Current System:
Athlon 1700+ XP
512MB PC2700 Memory X 2
Gforce FX 5600 256MB

New System:
AMD Athlon64 3000+ S939 Processor
Asus A8N-E NF4U S939 PCIe Mainboard
512MB PC3200 DDR Memory (BRAND NAME) X 2
Asus GFX 6600GT 128MB DH PCI-E Video Card w/TV-OUT

huge difference, look at the corsair vs 2x512 ram, its around 80 bucks. the asus board is fine, i like the dfi but they're both good
 
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