PC Game quality

9mak9

Senior member
Dec 3, 2007
494
0
76
I'm sorry this is ridiculous. I just read that T4 Salvation has 5 hours of gameplay!! 5 is it. It costs full retail price of $50.

I bought Mirror's Edge and Wolverine Origins for $20 but they are also 8 hours of gameplay.

Putting gameplay aside (Mirrors Edge and Wolverine are fun; while I heard T4 sucks), why must these games have no value? I at least like that there are additional features in the games I bought but the actual story/game is so short its just no worth price.

And they wonder why people are illegally downloading games.
 

mindcycle

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2008
1,901
0
76
Originally posted by: 9mak9
I'm sorry this is ridiculous. I just read that T4 Salvation has 5 hours of gameplay!! 5 is it. It costs full retail price of $50.
Yep. It's called milking money from fans of the franchise. That and movie based titles are notorious for being unfinished and generally shitty, although there are some exceptions.

Doesn't surprise me at all that T4 Salvation is a typical movie based cash grab.


Originally posted by: 9mak9
And they wonder why people are illegally downloading games.
I don't buy into quality issues being the reason that people pirate games. IMO, people are downloading because it's easy and you typically get a better experience than the retail versions that are "DRMed" to hell. I'd even go as far as to say that most people who pirate games would never have bought them in the first place, and half of them probably don't even play what they downloaded for any length of time.

Some publishers are making games that are worth paying and are also making the right move by choosing not to us invasive DRM. It's more incentives to buy, not more roadblocks, that will win over the consumer.

Stardock anyone..
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,202
216
106
As much as I hate to disagree (simply because I do love long-lasting campaigns/single-player missions and story arcs), what you're referring to 9mak9 dates back to the 8-Bit era of gaming. What makes the quality of a game isn't how long it lasts, believe me. It certainly helps appreciate the quality for a longer period, which in the end surely helps augments the positive perception of the game (and the developers), but the length of a game is nothing if it lacks everything else.

I still remember to this day when back in the mid 1990's I was paying SNES, PSX and N64 games up to $70 when I could complete most of them within one or two days of play sessions (usually they never lasted more than six or so hours in totality). But I liked most of them, because they were simply good. I also remember when Left 4 Dead was released, a game with basically no single-player and craptacular Survivors A.I (with ironically good zombies A.I), and so little content, but its price at release was way more than people would have wanted it to be, and that game is recent, we all agree on that.

But believe me, it's happening since a very long time, but each time we see it happen we have the feeling that it's occurring since only a few years and that gaming quality is under an unprecedented decline. It's not. It's just history repeating itself.
 
Oct 27, 2007
17,009
5
0
Originally posted by: 9mak9
And they wonder why people are illegally downloading games.

Really? Then I suppose you can show me evidence that high quality titles like Mass Effect and Bioshock have lower piracy rates than lower quality titles like T4 and Mirror's Edge? Because if not, shut the fucking hell up because I'm sick of listening to you asshole pirate criminals justify your crimes.

Check your PM's, let's play nice. Oakenfold PCG and Security Moderator
 

msi1337

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
7,825
79
101
Originally posted by: Zenoth
I still remember to this day when back in the mid 1990's I was paying SNES, PSX and N64 games up to $70 when I could complete most of them within one or two days of play sessions (usually they never lasted more than six or so hours in totality). But I liked most of them, because they were simply good. I also remember when Left 4 Dead was released, a game with basically no single-player and craptacular Survivors A.I (with ironically good zombies A.I), and so little content, but its price at release was way more than people would have wanted it to be, and that game is recent, we all agree on that.

I worked hours and hours raking blueberries in a field in Maine to save up the money for Street Fighter 2 when it came out for SNES. I beat it in under 6 hours on all difficulties, but to this day.. I never regret it. It is still one of my favorite games.

 

wanderer27

Platinum Member
Aug 6, 2005
2,173
15
81
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: 9mak9
And they wonder why people are illegally downloading games.

Really? Then I suppose you can show me evidence that high quality titles like Mass Effect and Bioshock have lower piracy rates than lower quality titles like T4 and Mirror's Edge? Because if not, shut the fucking hell up because I'm sick of listening to you asshole pirate criminals justify your crimes.

Actually, I would expect the Piracy rates of M.E. and Bioshock to be higher than the average crappola being doled out these days - and that's because of the DRM crap loaded into it.
If I recall correctly, there was a bit of a fiasco with these two titles not working properly (if at all) just because of their DRM.

Sadly, the Pirate versions don't have to deal with such headaches.

I would really like to play both of these games, and several others for that matter, but I'm not going to infest myself with the DRM incorporated in them.

I could buy a legit copy and then get the Pirate version for actual use, but that would be sending a message that I approve of whatever DRM methods they choose to use - I don't.

I'm not going to Pirate them, and I don't think they should be Pirated.
They shouldn't be purchased/supported if you don't approve of the whole product (DRM included). That's the only way they're going to quit abusing their customers.

My only recourse is to simply not buy the product. If more people did that then things might change.

Realistically, Piracy is not likely to go away.
 

9mak9

Senior member
Dec 3, 2007
494
0
76
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: 9mak9
And they wonder why people are illegally downloading games.

Really? Then I suppose you can show me evidence that high quality titles like Mass Effect and Bioshock have lower piracy rates than lower quality titles like T4 and Mirror's Edge? Because if not, shut the fucking hell up because I'm sick of listening to you asshole pirate criminals justify your crimes.

First, I have never illegally downloaded a game. Second, I am saying in general games are being pirated more because of the high cost and low quality. Third, where did I justify pirating games? I never said you should, or its right to do it because of the quality of the game. Frankly I wouldn't want T4 in anyway because its a bad game. Fourth, go fuck yourself, because your comment is unjustified, and you have no reason to write it. Fifth, I don't want this thread to become about pirating so I'm sorry I brought it up.


On the other more logical responses. I agree that a longer campaign doesn't dictate quality but looking T4 which is 5 hours and the game is terrible it makes it soo much worse. I can deal with Wolverine/Mirror's Edge being a little short because they are good quality games have additional content that extends your playing experience.

I guess I'm such a Baldur's Gate/RPG person that I wish more games has replay value.


Let's play nice. Oakenfold PCG and Security Moderator
 

Frodolives

Platinum Member
Nov 28, 2001
2,190
0
0
The eventual price reduction of games is hastened greatly when sales are poor, as they often are when a game fails to meet expectations. If the play time is really that low, then few are likely to buy it at full retail.

I agree with msi337 that the time factor does not directly equate to the value received from a game, although I recognize that you do go into a game with some hopes of a lengthy escape from reality.

And then you always have someone railing against the length of any game based upon how fast they were able to get through it, when in most cases there was a lot more to be enjoyed by anyone who was properly disposed to that particular game in the first place. When someone cries about Fallout 3 only lasting 8 or 9 hours, it sounds to me like someone saying that sex is lousy because it only lasted 2 minutes. If you are playing a game with the intent to get it over with as fast as possible then it probably wasn't the right game for you. But I'm straying from your seemingly legitimate complaint of another game.

Thankfully the market is still broad and varied, and even expanding for the moment. I'm sorry for the handful of likely suckers that will continue to be taken in by overpriced and overly hyped games, but I'm still pretty happy with my average "bang for the buck."
 

9mak9

Senior member
Dec 3, 2007
494
0
76
Yeah I think certain games such as Fallout 3 can be done in 10 hours but if you do then you aren't meant to play it. I think I've played over 40 hours and I still have plenty to go. Its the linear games that just put you on a quick path that are the problem ones.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,800
6,356
126
It looks light years better than the previous Terminator game, but ya, 4 hours gameplay is criminal.
 

tigersty1e

Golden Member
Dec 13, 2004
1,963
0
76
They did a recall on the retail version of Terminator....

Wait till the updated version comes out.
 

9mak9

Senior member
Dec 3, 2007
494
0
76
Originally posted by: tigersty1e
They did a recall on the retail version of Terminator....

Wait till the updated version comes out.

The recall had nothing to do with the actual game, it was that anyone purchasing the retail version couldn't install it.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
8 hours is actually a pretty good length for a game, especially if it's good all the way through. Especially for a $20 game.
Heck, even 4 hours is acceptable if it's really really good or priced low enough.

Most old games weren't very long either, but their difficulty made them take forever to beat. There wouldn't be 15 minute speed runs for games if they actually had so much content that you couldn't blaze through them.
 

Elcs

Diamond Member
Apr 27, 2002
6,278
6
81
Originally posted by: Fox5
8 hours is actually a pretty good length for a game, especially if it's good all the way through. Especially for a $20 game.
Heck, even 4 hours is acceptable if it's really really good or priced low enough.

Most old games weren't very long either, but their difficulty made them take forever to beat. There wouldn't be 15 minute speed runs for games if they actually had so much content that you couldn't blaze through them.

True there but you have games like Warcraft 3, Homeworld, Freespace 2, Baldurs Gate 2.... Final Fantasy VII.... all absolutely monumental games in which lasted ages. They may have been "hard" but not that hard to say that the difficulty extended the game all that much.

Of course, these are the exception and could easily rank in anyones top 10 games of all time.

Graphically, these games were a mixture with Homeworld and Freespace2 being magical and WC3 being ok, in the vain of Diablo2/Starcraft, great Blizzard games with average graphics.

Storylines were all rather strong with sufficient twists in the tale to make it believable. Story telling, FMV, the immersion in all of the games above were great, pulled you in and kept you there until you passed out/had to call a sickie from work/completed the game. Homeworld, when you hyperspaced back to Kharak, Samuel Barber's Agnus Dei playing in the background.... "Kharak has been destroyed, our Homeworld is in flames.". The game hooked me from that moment and I even got the shiver just thinking about it to type this up.

In my opinion, there are some essentials to a good (single player) game:

1) Storyline. Decent story, well told. Make me feel like I give a crap about saving the princess or my planet from certain destruction. Surprise me, make me think about whats going to come next. Please do not do the movie thing and shorten the story just to make it fit. Rushing certain areas or parts of the plot just helps detract from the immersion.

2) Make sure the game mechanics are good, consistant and balanced. Despite my love of RPG's, try not to make certain combinations uber or others near useless. Combat must be enjoyable, challenging but not frustrating. In my opinion, avoid one-shot kill type skills and force me to think of tactics, how to beat an enemy. Don't make an awful inventory system or complicated to use skills system.

3) A good length. Fully develop the story, give background on the characters and tie them into both the story and the player. No rushed parts, let the game flow and marry the story progression with it.

4) Bugs. I am no programmer and as I understand it, coding a game for the multitude of PC configurations available is a proverbial nightmare. Game breaking, glitching, annoying or downright sloppy bugs reduce immersion and can turn what is a great game into a pile of trash or just tarnish that nice vaneer. First impressions are often key in most walks of life and if you fail (T4:Salvation's install bug) then thats not good!

Overall, as the technology market in the form of CPU's and GPU's has skyrocketed since some more golden years for games in the mid-nineties to early naughties and it has probably contributed to the complexity of producing a bug free game allowing less time for certain aspects to be developed. If this theory holds true, one can understand that combined with the economics around games development and the gaming industry that the pressure to achieve sales results could compromise on game quality.

So in my opinion, games quality has certainly dropped in recent times. You occasionally find a gem but not many games are "worth it" at full price. I have not yet had an issue with DRM but from the overall feel of forums including this one, it feels like it is more of a hinderance than a help.

Pirating is something I cannot agree with. The only grey area for me is DRM issues. From what I have read, pirated games are usually the same as the retail version but with any intrusive DRM removed. I cannot agree with someone pirating a game to avoid potential DRM issues but I can feel some sort of... sympathy? probably the wrong word... with someone trying not to install what can be perceived as a piece of intrusive software onto their PC....

If someone legally purchased a game but downloaded a version from the internet which had the DRM/DVD check removed, I'd find that a tough one to call.

I have only posted personal opinion, always open to criticism but dislike flaming. :)
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Originally posted by: Fox5
8 hours is actually a pretty good length for a game, especially if it's good all the way through. Especially for a $20 game.
Heck, even 4 hours is acceptable if it's really really good or priced low enough.

Most old games weren't very long either, but their difficulty made them take forever to beat. There wouldn't be 15 minute speed runs for games if they actually had so much content that you couldn't blaze through them.

True that. Quake was a ridiculously high price of $70 when it first came out and yet we have speed run videos of the game being beaten in 10 minutes flat. Doom 2 can be done in 15 minutes.

And they wonder why people are illegally downloading games.
Do a torrent search for Big Rigs Over The Road Racing. Get back to me on how many people are pirating that piece of shit.
video
 

Via

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2009
4,670
4
0
I've never understood blowing through games. I like to take my time and explore every nook and cranny.

Fo example - i heard some people beat FEAR in 5 hours; I'm sure it took me over twice that long.

After what seems like months to find a game I could really get into I fianlly found it in Mass Effect, a game some people call short. I've only done the first big mission (find the Asarian) that you can do with your ship and I'm already up to 8 hours. And I've barely completed any of the extras.
 

9mak9

Senior member
Dec 3, 2007
494
0
76
Again I never justified pirating games nor do it do that if you want to read what I said. But I might as well just delete the comment if people keep responding to it.

I am also playing Fallout 3, Max Payne 2, Baldur's Gate, Marvel UA, Tower Grid and Medieval TW. Those are better games that I can spend much more time playing.

I guess its a bad comparison since movie games are usually terrible and are made so quickly to make the movie release time. I still think its ridiculous that the game is 5 hours of gameplay and is $50.
 

9mak9

Senior member
Dec 3, 2007
494
0
76
Originally posted by: angry hampster
Portal is only a few hours long, but it's an incredible game.

Yes it cost me $5, it was a great game but short

T4 costs $50, is a terrible game and is short.
 

Gothgar

Lifer
Sep 1, 2004
13,429
1
0
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: 9mak9
And they wonder why people are illegally downloading games.

Really? Then I suppose you can show me evidence that high quality titles like Mass Effect and Bioshock have lower piracy rates than lower quality titles like T4 and Mirror's Edge? Because if not, shut the fucking hell up because I'm sick of listening to you asshole pirate criminals justify your crimes.

Check your PM's, let's play nice. Oakenfold PCG and Security Moderator

how do you really feel?
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
I think that for the most part, first person games tend to be fairly short, but there are some definite winners out there. CoD4 for example, I really enjoyed that game.

With regard to piracy, I will just say this. (taken from the dictionary on my Mac)

Piracy: The practice of attacking and robbing ships at sea (or similar practice in other contexts, such as airline hijacking)

Bootlegging: Make, distribute or sell (illicit goods, liquor, computer software, or recordings) illegally.

So, to be clear. Piracy is a violently and illegally taking things, bootlegging is just illegally taking things.

Since I am pretty certain that the people that frequent PirateBay, Demonoid, SuprNova et al. are not holding up the devs with 12 guages and molotov cocktails, lets just call it bootlegging.

However, what is the consensus on someone buying a game, discovering that you HAVE to have the disk in the drive in order to make it work and so that someone then downloads a copy of the game so that they can then mount the ISO for playing the game?
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,814
3,612
136
Here's a helpful function (minus indenting due to forum suckularity).

Function BuyThisGame(PersonalInterest)
Dim Title as Game

Game.Interest = 10
If Title.Type = "Movie Tie-In" Then
Title.AddtoTrackedList = False
Title.AddtoWishList = False
Title.ViewPreviews = False
Title.ViewImages = False
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest - 5)
For i = 1 to Title.Reviews.Count
If Title.Review(i).Score < 8 And Not Title.Interest = 0 Then
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest - 1)
Else
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest + 1)
End If
Next
If Title.Interest > 8 And PersonalInterest > 9 Then
BuyThisGame = True
Else
BuyThisGame = False
End If
Else
Title.AddtoTrackedList = True
Title.AddtoWishList = True
Title.ViewPreviews = True
Title.ViewImages = True
For i = 1 to Title.Reviews.Count
If Title.Review(i).Score < 7 And Not Title.Interest = 0 Then
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest - 1)
Else
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest + 1)
End If
Next
If Title.Interest > 7 And PersonalInterest > 7 Then
BuyThisGame = True
Else
BuyThisGame = False
End If
End If
End Function
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
2
0
Originally posted by: AdamK47
Here's a helpful function (minus indenting due to forum suckularity).

Function BuyThisGame(PersonalInterest)
Dim Title as Game

Game.Interest = 10
If Title.Type = "Movie Tie-In" Then
Title.AddtoTrackedList = False
Title.AddtoWishList = False
Title.ViewPreviews = False
Title.ViewImages = False
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest - 5)
For i = 1 to Title.Reviews.Count
If Title.Review(i).Score < 8 And Not Title.Interest = 0 Then
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest - 1)
Else
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest + 1)
End If
Next
If Title.Interest > 8 And PersonalInterest > 9 Then
BuyThisGame = True
Else
BuyThisGame = False
End If
Else
Title.AddtoTrackedList = True
Title.AddtoWishList = True
Title.ViewPreviews = True
Title.ViewImages = True
For i = 1 to Title.Reviews.Count
If Title.Review(i).Score < 7 And Not Title.Interest = 0 Then
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest - 1)
Else
Title.Interest = (Title.Interest + 1)
End If
Next
If Title.Interest > 7 And PersonalInterest > 7 Then
BuyThisGame = True
Else
BuyThisGame = False
End If
End If
End Function

does that make the turtle draw something or what?