PC Freezes - Help another problem solving forum

[SoLittle]

I have a 4 yr old home built system that is freezing up. It is an AMD 1800/Windows XP Pro. The keyboard and mouse freezes with no error message or BSOD. It take a reboot to get going again and will operate normally for an hour or a day before freezing again. I have been getting some help from the folks at PC Pitstop but no likely solution yet. I have posted details of my symptoms, my configuration and troubleshooting so far over there.

Perhaps you could take a peek there and see if you can find a clue on what to check or do next. If nothing jumps out is there anything that you might rule out? Here is the link:

http://forums.pcpitstop.com/index.php?showtopic=130721

Thanks,

Howard

 

[tk11]

I was going to say temps but you've checked that.

Next thing I'd try would be the Prime95 torture test.

 

[imported_elwood]

www.memtest.org

 

[Captante]

You might also want to inspect the capaciters on the mb itself to make sure none of them are leaking.. its a common problem in boards from 3-5 years ago and can cause lockups on the way to total failure. Try running both Memtest & Prime 96 in particular as well as has been suggested.

 

[SoLittle]

I have run Microsoft Memory Diagnostics on both sticks of memory (independently and together) and they passed all six teats. Does memtest do anything different?

On the Prime 95 or Prime 96 - I went to their web site and am confused. This looks like some kind of mathametical problem solver utility. Also it mentioned about running it for at least two weeks to get meaningful results and further I don't think it said much about output. Did I miss something?

 

[btcomm1]

Try running the extended test with the ms memtest, it will do more then 6 tests. Also like captante says, look for leaking capacitors, if you don't see any leaking look for ones that are bulding, they may also be a problem.

 

[chusteczka]

I think the problem may be caused by the PSU randomly dropping the 12V power line down below 11.50V.

A method to detect this would be with a voltage monitoring program. My Asus motherboard has PC Probe II. Your Epox motherboard contains these utilities, of which the one you probably want is the "Unified System Diagnostic Manager to monitor system performance". There may be other alternatives, such as motherboard monitor. Maybe someone else can recommend a good PSU voltage monitoring program.

There are four possible methods to solve this problem.

• Reduce any CPU overclock back to the default setting.
• Turn off any program that uses the full capacity of the CPU.
• Purchase a new, stronger, more reliable power supply.
• Purchase a UPS battery backup with Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR).
  • Such as this model.
  • APC has better deals in their refurbished section. Just wait for availability.
  • buy.apc.com
  • You may sign up for their email newsletter here. Every couple months they send an email notification about sales or refurbished items.
  • Here is a very good thread on APC battery backups

I think the best option is to purchase a battery backup, since power brownouts are actually a frequent occurrence.

Someone mentioned a failing power supply on the other forum thread you mentioned but they did not explain for further understanding. I have been having similar problems as you describe for several months now and have been wondering what is wrong. I thought is was a damaged WinXP install so I installed again. During the OS configuration, I installed the PC Probe II application to monitor the cpu temperatures and voltages. I manually set the alarm to activate outside of the 5% range. Since I have done this, I have received logged alarms of an undervoltage condition at the same frequency my system was freezing at before. My system is not freezing now because I turned off my Boinc application with SETI since I considered the possibility I could be providing corrupt results. However, if I turn on Prime95 for a significant amount of time, my system will again freeze at the previous random frequency. Sometimes I receive an logged alarm notification upon restart and sometimes I do not.

I had a UPS a year ago with no freezing problems for this same system. I am certain the problem is not due to an overheating cpu or hard drive since my system has frozen when my room has been rather cold with the windows open this past month in the colder weather here in Chicago. Also, I am certain my system is not improperly overclocked since I reset it to its defaults and painstakingly reworked the overclock process to determine my system was stable.

The Everest Home edition program provides a snapshot of the PSU voltages. It may be beneficial to provide these for comparison. Maybe other people can provide their PSU voltages from stable systems and better quality power supplies for additional comparison. I have found my middle range quality PSU works just fine with a UPS with AVR but gives random problems without the UPS.

Everest | Computer | Sensor | Voltage Values
CPU Core: 1.55 V
+3.3 V: 3.26 V
+5 V: 4.95 V
+12 V: 11.78 V
+5 V Standby: 4.76 V

My +12 V rail randomly drops down to 11.46 V. I think this is what was causing my system to freeze when this voltage drop was combined with 100% cpu usage.

My PSU is an Enlight 340W with 18Amps on the 12 volt rail.

My cpu core is high at 1.55 V since I was attempting to eliminate that as a cause of the system freeze. My system is currently overclocked with a bus speed at 290MHz on an Asus A8N-E skt 939 system. My memory is currently set at a 5/6 memory divider (333MHz) with a bus speed of 238MHz.

PS. What kind of spellchecker does Anandtech have that marks popular computer terms as misspelled?
Some examples are: Anandtech, AVR, psu, PSU, overclock, and cpu (but not CPU).

 

[chusteczka]

Other people attribute a freezing PC to:

• an improper memory overclock or timings
• buggy nVidia sata drivers for the hard drive, typically on a skt939 Asus A8N-E motherboard.
  • These people receive a blue screen error due to the nvata.sys driver. Some people report this is fixed by uninstalling the nVidia drivers, causing the system to return to Microsoft Windows for hard drive drivers. Other people mention updating the bios, or replacing their hard drive.

 

[SoLittle]

The quest continues:

First the processor is not and never has been overclocked.

I am running Everest Home and Motherboard Monitor 5. The temps are relatively consistent. Temps from Everest are:

Sensor Properties:
Sensor Type Winbond W83697HF (ISA 290h)
Motherboard Name Epox 4SDA / 8K3A / 8K9A / 8KHA / 8KHM Series

Temperatures:
Motherboard 30 °C (86 °F)
CPU 46 °C (115 °F)
WDC WD1200JB-00GVA0 30 °C (86 °F)

Cooling Fans:
CPU 4623 RPM
Chassis 2280 RPM

Voltage Values:
CPU Core 1.76 V
+3.3 V 3.36 V
+5 V 4.81 V
+12 V 12.46 V
+5 V Standby 5.51 V
VBAT Battery 3.17 V
DIMM 2.59 V
AGP 1.54 V

I don't know what this all means.

One thing I note is the +5 V as being 4.81 V but again don't know if this is a problem.

I think my powere supply is an Enlight and is over 300w but not sure of the exact model & don't want to open the case just now.

I can pretty much rule out memory as I have replaced it (now Crucial @ 1 gig).

I have also tried another video card and updated the driver (GeForce 4 TI 4800 nVidia).

It still freezes or locks up without warning (once or twice a day) but operates normally otherwise.

 

[chusteczka]

It may be helpful to try to stress the disk access drivers to see if an error results.

First thing to do is make sure the automatic reboot option for a blue screen error is not selected.
right-click on My Computer | select Properties | select Advanced tab |
select the settings button in Startup and Recovery - System startup, system failure, and debugging information

In the Startup and Recovery dialog box, uncheck the box for System Failure - Automatically restart

This way, if a blue screen error results, you can see what the error is without the system automatically rebooting.


Take a large file that is at least 700MB's in size. Larger is better. Copy this file to another hard drive or to another directory.

At the same time the first file is copying, do one of the following:
decompress a large file, at least 700MB's in size, or
compress a large file or directory of files, at least 700MB's in size.

Doing two, three, or four of these operations at the same time may stress your hard drive driver to the point an error can result if the problem is with a hard drive driver.

 

[SoLittle]

I will try to stress the hard drive thing later today.

Don't think disabling the reboot option will add anything as my system does not automatically attempt a reboot. When the problem happens the system will lock up tight. By that I mean it will not respond to either keyboard or mouse - - no error message, no automatic reboot, no BSOD. The only thing to do is simply press the reboot button. Then it reboots normally and works normally until the next time it freezes.

 

[ScrapSilicon]

Originally posted by: Captante
You might also want to inspect the capaciters on the mb itself to make sure none of them are leaking.. its a common problem in boards from 3-5 years ago and can cause lockups on the way to total failure. Try running both Memtest & Prime 96 in particular as well as has been suggested.

Epox 8KHA+mo board

(ineedhelpregularly21 @ 5:21am Thu Dec 14 2006)

Throw Windows and get Linux: http://opensuse.org

Download site: http://en.opensuse.org/Mirrors_Released_Version
still downloading Linux as of now (i have only a 384kbps connection, sometimes it degrades, and my download speeds at D.A.P ranges from 20-36kbps only )

If you don't have anything relevant to the issue to post then don't post anything. -kd5-

that mod needs to think before post as well..quite a few people will use a linux distro to troubleshoot Windows issues/hardware testing

 

[SoLittle]

Any comments on the temps posted above? These came from Everest Home. I am running another called Motherboard Monitor. It shows two temps that are puzzeling to me. One is -12.00 expected with a reading of 2.28 V. The other iis -5.0 expected with a reading of 0.38 V. What are these for and are the readings abnormal?

Also I have inspected the motherboard for swelled capacitors and/or burn marks. There are none.

 

[chusteczka]

Originally posted by: SoLittle
The quest continues:

First the processor is not and never has been overclocked.

I am running Everest Home and Motherboard Monitor 5. The temps are relatively consistent. Temps from Everest are:

Sensor Properties:
Sensor Type Winbond W83697HF (ISA 290h)
Motherboard Name Epox 4SDA / 8K3A / 8K9A / 8KHA / 8KHM Series

Temperatures:
Motherboard 30 °C (86 °F)
CPU 46 °C (115 °F)
WDC WD1200JB-00GVA0 30 °C (86 °F)

Cooling Fans:
CPU 4623 RPM
Chassis 2280 RPM

Voltage Values:
CPU Core 1.76 V
+3.3 V 3.36 V
+5 V 4.81 V
+12 V 12.46 V
+5 V Standby 5.51 V
VBAT Battery 3.17 V
DIMM 2.59 V
AGP 1.54 V

I don't know what this all means.

One thing I note is the +5 V as being 4.81 V but again don't know if this is a problem.

I think my power supply is an Enlight and is over 300w but not sure of the exact model & don't want to open the case just now.

I can pretty much rule out memory as I have replaced it (now Crucial @ 1 gig).

I have also tried another video card and updated the driver (GeForce 4 TI 4800 nVidia).

It still freezes or locks up without warning (once or twice a day) but operates normally otherwise.



Any comments on the temps posted above? These came from Everest Home. I am running another called Motherboard Monitor. It shows two temps that are puzzling to me. One is -12.00 expected with a reading of 2.28 V. The other iis -5.0 expected with a reading of 0.38 V. What are these for and are the readings abnormal?

Also I have inspected the motherboard for swelled capacitors and/or burn marks. There are none.

I apologize for abandoning you. My antics in Off Topic got me banned for a while and then I forgot about past threads when I had access again. Although, I wonder why no one else picked up on this thread. .. .. ..

Re-reading through this thread and the other thread shows me a few things but nothing that can provide immediate help. Is this still an issue?

The temperatures and voltages look normal. I assume a CPU Core of 1.76 volts is normal for an AMD 1800+ XP at 1.53GHz, since I believe the die size is larger than current processors.

+3.3 V @ 3.36 V is normal
+5 V @ 4.81 V appears low but should not create the experienced symptoms.
+12 V @ 12.46 V appears in the normal range but high. I do not have experience with symptoms seen with high voltages.

It may be useful to replace the power supply with a new and better quality power supply. Your system is not overclocked so it should not be sensitive to power variations. However, if I remember correctly, the AMD Athlon Thunderbirds and XP's require a lot of electricity and create a lot of heat. For this reason, power fluctuations may create problems for your system. I recently replaced my PSU with the following FSP Group FSP400-60GLN ATX 12V V2.0 400W Power Supply w/12cm Fan for a total cost of $59. NewEgg has cheaper Fortron (and Sparkle) PSU's that will work just as well. Since I replaced my PSU, my system no longer experiences random freezes similar to your problem description, that I was experiencing earlier.

I really think your problem will be solved by replacing the power supply for a 350W or a 400W Fortron or Sparkle PSU. I have two Enlight cases with Enlight power supplies. They tend to work well if the system is not overclocked and I think your aging power supply may be having difficulty with the high power requirements of the AMD Athlon XP due to the old speed wars with the Intel P4's.

I think any of these power supplies will work well for you. (Antec is supposed to be another good brand. Some of them are supposed to be rebadged X-Clio's but I now stretch my knowledge limits.) Just watch the number of pins. I think your older system requires a 20 pin connection but I am not sure. A (20 + 4) pin connection will work for your current system and will also work later for your next replacement system.

I think the voltage readings you received through Motherboard Monitor on the -12V and -5V lines are due to incorrect sensor readings. I doubt these are correct voltage readings and should therefore not be worried over.

Prime95 is one of the best system test programs available since it runs in the background and allows the user full use of the system even during system testing. Prime95 is a program designed to find Prime Mersenne numbers but has an option to run floating point calculation tests based on known results. This test runs the CPU at 100% capacity. There are three test options based on the amount of memory that is desired to be used. The test with the small floating point numbers focuses on the CPU rather than the transfer of data to and from memory. The test with the large floating point numbers focuses on thrashing the memory with multiple page faults to test both cpu calculations and memory accesses.

It would be good for you to test your system with Prime95 for at least 6 hours, preferably 12 hours, twice. The first test should be with small floating point numbers to test your cpu. The second test should be with large floating point numbers to test the memory. Try it a few times and see what happens.

I still think the problem is with the power supply unit.


Edit:
Without a battery backup and electricity line conditioner, my new FSP PSU provides the following voltages:
Vcore: 1.49V
+3.3: 3.22V
+5.0: 4.95V
+12.0: 11.90V

I have seen the same model power supply provide 12.03V on the +12V line for a system with a battery backup and electricity line conditioner.

 

[chusteczka]

In this thread, they are discussing a server that is randomly freezing. At the moment, they believe it may be either the chipset drivers or the network card drivers. Either way for you, that would translate to your chipset drivers. They may be buggy, I have seen this with the nVidia drivers since they do not always work the way they should.

You may want to try reinstalling your motherboard chipset drivers. Go to your motherboard manufacturer's support page and see if there is an updated version of the drivers.

 

[SoLittle]

chusteczka - Thanks for sticking with me. I too have been to tied up with other stuff to be all that vigerous in solving this. The other stuff has quieted down so I'll be back at it.

Not much by way of an update. Thje system still freezes with no aparent pattern. I can go for a day or more without freezing then it will freeze twice in 5 minutes. I did do a deep virus scan in the Safe mode (took 6 hours and it looked at over a million files). It turned up three and I thought I had found the problem as it ran for almost a day trouble free. But then - -

I also have run System Mechanic and AMUST Registry Cleaner. The system response is a bit faster but it still freezes randomly as before.

I think I will try your suggestion and buy a new power supply. I am considering an FSP AX400-PM at $41.99. I want to keep costs to a minimum as I'm not keen on throwing parts at it not knowing what the problem is. The wife wants me to trash this one and get a Dell with warranty. I'm not really hot on that idea but it may come to that. I have spent way to much time on this.

I will look into your suggestion on the chipset drivers. The chipset is VIA (that is about all I know). I admit to being skeptical about the drivers since I have had the system for nearly 5 years and I would think driver problems would have shown up long before now.

 

[chusteczka]

They mention the VIA chipset drivers as the buggy culprit in the other thread. However, I had a VIA chipset in my past PIII system that worked without fault. I agree with you that buggy drivers would have shown themselves earlier, probably right in the beginning. I also agree with your choice to try the power supply. There is an elite member here, MechBgon, that used to (still does?) advocate a new power supply as the solution to most system problems that have developed over time.

I agree with your choice of PSU and your choice to purchase a PSU over a new machine. New computer systems can be purchased now for as low as $400 but your current system should last at least another two years if it is not being used heavily. I think if you were using it heavily then you would have already purchased a newer system.

If it comes to Dell, remember to shop for a Dell system at the end of each fiscal quarter. Their fiscal year starts on February 1st and they tend to have sales just before the end of each fiscal quarter. Therefore, I expect them to drop prices during the second and third week of this month, to be repeated during the second and third week of April, etc. Gateway is also a good brand now since they are working to rebuild their image and I currently prefer to stay away from Hewlett Packard's.

 

[btcomm1]

I would say at this point it's most likely your PSU is going bad or the motherboard is.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

Originally posted by: btcomm1
I would say at this point it's most likely your PSU is going bad or the motherboard is.

Ditto.! Try another PSU if you have one handi.

Bad caps in PSU, or on the MB can cause intermittent issues,
Read symptoms at http://www.motherboardrepair.com and http://www.badcaps.net/Ident/

Good luck finding your problem in software.

 

[marulee]

Prime95 torture test.

is?

 

[dderolph]

SoLittle, just thought I'd mention that I bought the PSU you mentioned. I presume you meant AX400-PN, not AX400-PM, right? I just installed it 12 days ago but it seems like a very good one. And, if you looked at it on newegg.com, you know it's gotten solid reviews. My system: Athon XP 2200, 512MB RAM, two optical drives, PCI sound card, two nVidia video cards (AGP and PCI) to run two monitors.