Paying for something you'll never get the full benefit of.

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,458
12,611
126
www.anyf.ca
This is incorrect. It is part of code because it has been previously identified as a common fault. That is why it is that way, not some conspiratorial "faceless bureaucrat is out to get me!" nonsense.

....but it's weird that you selectively accept "nonsense codes" for electrical work (which is your field, right?) but dismiss it for general contracting/structural work (not your field). Why is that?

I was speaking more in general. These are just examples of stupidities but they are in every field.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,935
6,310
136
This is incorrect. It is part of code because it has been previously identified as a common fault. That is why it is that way, not some conspiratorial "faceless bureaucrat is out to get me!" nonsense.
this.

@Red Squirrel and your examples of overdoing, 2x8 and staple distance, requiring a do over...never heard on an instance. @Greenman @skull @herm0016 @NutBucket ...anyone else?

It is Kanikistan though.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,458
12,611
126
www.anyf.ca
I ain't buying the story about the deck. Building codes set the MINIMUM that's acceptable...you can ALWAYS go better/heavier as long as the underlying structure will handle it.

That's the thing it depends on the inspector. If you get a really petty one they will call out the most bogus thing. At that point it's not even about safety it's just someone being petty.

But anyway I was more talking about the permit part itself, that's the part that's just a money grab. You can still build something safe without one. Didn't think this would blow up. Just hate all the beaurocracy in today's world when it comes to that. Thankfully there are unorganized townships where you can build what you want without the government having their nose in it.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,935
6,310
136
You can still build something safe without one.
Maybe you can but 99% of people yank plugs out by the cord. You really trust them to be your neighbors and doing electrical?

Otherwise....Just hate all the beaurocracy in today's world when it comes to that.....agree.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,448
1,070
126
this.

@Red Squirrel and your examples of overdoing, 2x8 and staple distance, requiring a do over...never heard on an instance. @Greenman @skull @herm0016 @NutBucket ...anyone else?

It is Kanikistan though.

nope. some inspectors are jerks though. ex: the one that did my new septic last year made us put extra risers on all the access points and it cost some pretty penny, nothing in code about it, she just wanted them FURTHER above grade. after final, i had to dig around all of them to take them out. covers are now at grade, where they should be. and i have &&&& of extra risers stacked up in the junk corner.

i have also fixed non-code compliant work after its inspected, like bonding the ground to the neutral in a sub panel.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,208
12,528
136
That's the thing it depends on the inspector. If you get a really petty one they will call out the most bogus thing. At that point it's not even about safety it's just someone being petty.

But anyway I was more talking about the permit part itself, that's the part that's just a money grab. You can still build something safe without one. Didn't think this would blow up. Just hate all the beaurocracy in today's world when it comes to that. Thankfully there are unorganized townships where you can build what you want without the government having their nose in it.

Petty inspectors or not, your example makes no sense. If the code had required 2x8s and he used 2x6s...then requiring the change would make sense...not the other way around.
I'm lucky...I'm building a small (10x10) greenhouse and a 8x10 shed, followed by a 6' fence around my back yard. No permit required.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,458
12,611
126
www.anyf.ca
Petty inspectors or not, your example makes no sense. If the code had required 2x8s and he used 2x6s...then requiring the change would make sense...not the other way around.
I'm lucky...I'm building a small (10x10) greenhouse and a 8x10 shed, followed by a 6' fence around my back yard. No permit required.

Some are just that petty, they want it to be exact to code. There's probably some stupid reason behind it. It's the same as how you're not allowed to use "real" dimensional lumber (ex: unplaned) even though it's thicker and stronger. Lot of those rules arn't about safety at all they're just there because of some stupid reason they came up with. And let's not even get started with HOAs.

I make sure anything I do does not require a permit, it just makes everything simpler and cheaper. Minute you need a permit the cost of your project just went up 3x and your taxes go up too. Rather save that money and put it towards the actual project and overbuild. Wish I could have made my shed bigger though but any bigger requires a permit. For my deck as long as it's within a certain distance from the ground I don't need one either. For stuff inside the house then F em it can't be seen from outside. I just make sure it's as good as what a pro would do.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,167
1,638
126
my eyes are about 1x the distance of the diagonal size of the screen from the screen. (106 inch screen, sadly, only 1080p)

In the living room, wife's gaming pc is connected to a lil 65inch screen, approx 8 feet from the screen ... around 1.5x screen diag size.

85 inch would work better for 4k at that distance, but, it costs about $2000 more for an 85 inch screen vs a 65 inch screen. Alsow 4k and 1080p TVs cost approx same amount.
 

TXHokie

Platinum Member
Nov 16, 1999
2,557
173
106
I'm gonna be real upset if I kick the bucket before I can spend my retirement savings.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,936
5,560
136
this.

@Red Squirrel and your examples of overdoing, 2x8 and staple distance, requiring a do over...never heard on an instance. @Greenman @skull @herm0016 @NutBucket ...anyone else?

It is Kanikistan though.
Those are both bad examples. If the joist system was compliant with 2x6, using 2x8 would be completely acceptable in the US. It's actually common to move up one size to reduce deflection. But you could also use 12x12 if you wanted to. There is no limit imposed on how far beyond code you go.
The stapling issue I don't understand at all. If it's building paper or something like that it has to stay up until the siding goes on, the inspector doesn't give a rats ass how you make it stay there.

Overall the code is sensible, there some odd items you'll come across that don't seem to matter, but overall it's primary purpose is to insure that minimum standards are met, and that the structure is sound and habitable.

My experience with inspectors over the last 35 years is that if they walk on the job and it looks like you know what you're doing, they aren't going to spend an hour trying to find something wrong. They can be very helpful when you run across an odd situation and don't really know how to proceed.

Here in California there are also some serious problems with not pulling permits. The first is that if there is a fire, and the insurance discovers the work was done without a permit, they won't cover the loss. Even if there is absolutely no doubt the unpermitted work wasn't the issue. The reasoning is that they don't insure illegal work, and any work done without a permit is by definition illegal, no matter how well it was done. There can also be problems at the time of sale. Unpermitted work can actually decrease the value of a home, and every buyer uses that bargaining chip to full advantage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: highland145

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,053
571
126
While I can see the insurance claims, buyers don't care in CA given it's still a seller's market. But you may have trouble with a loan if the renovations add significant square footage. Otherwise the "only" thing that matters is appraisal for condition.
 

skull

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2000
2,209
327
126
Those are both bad examples. If the joist system was compliant with 2x6, using 2x8 would be completely acceptable in the US. It's actually common to move up one size to reduce deflection. But you could also use 12x12 if you wanted to. There is no limit imposed on how far beyond code you go.
The stapling issue I don't understand at all. If it's building paper or something like that it has to stay up until the siding goes on, the inspector doesn't give a rats ass how you make it stay there.

Overall the code is sensible, there some odd items you'll come across that don't seem to matter, but overall it's primary purpose is to insure that minimum standards are met, and that the structure is sound and habitable.

My experience with inspectors over the last 35 years is that if they walk on the job and it looks like you know what you're doing, they aren't going to spend an hour trying to find something wrong. They can be very helpful when you run across an odd situation and don't really know how to proceed.

Here in California there are also some serious problems with not pulling permits. The first is that if there is a fire, and the insurance discovers the work was done without a permit, they won't cover the loss. Even if there is absolutely no doubt the unpermitted work wasn't the issue. The reasoning is that they don't insure illegal work, and any work done without a permit is by definition illegal, no matter how well it was done. There can also be problems at the time of sale. Unpermitted work can actually decrease the value of a home, and every buyer uses that bargaining chip to full advantage.

This, your allowed to go over code minimum no problem, extra staples bigger lumber not an issue. Inspectors aren't dicks unless they can tell you're incompetent, then they will nit pick every little thing. Just red squirrels fantasy world having no basis in reality yet again.

I just took over and finished a job where the electric inspector red tagged another "contractor". When I called him to get the scoop before I accepted the job he laughed like can you believe they thought they could pass an inspection. I said nope thats what was killing me I've seen a lot of terrible work but not terrible work where they thought they could pass an inspection. Anyway the inspector didn't see half of it. Place was a nightmare multiple circuits tied together, the junctions buried in walls no boxes. Terrible connections no special connectors going from aluminum to copper, wire nuts were already melting from the poor connections. Owner wasn't going to pull permits, he got busted not pulling them, inspections saved that place from burning down, permits are not a bad thing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: highland145

13Gigatons

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
7,461
500
126
Thats what you want starting and stopping all the time is harder on the system than just running, the right sized one could of lasted 25. Think of all that wasted energy over 19 years. Then there is the higher humidity levels because of short cycling.

I don't know what your talking about never had warranty problems like that.

I really doubt he's getting short cycling on a 3-ton. He also stated he had no humidity problems. Other factors have to be considered. Daily temperature. Days per year A/C is needed. Age and condition of home or office. What temperature the customer desires. Past experience.

2.5 ton is 30,000 BTU and 3 ton is 36,000 BTU....not a huge leap I know but some people will pay more per month on their energy bill to get a system that may last longer.

There are plenty of terrible companies that won't honor their warranty. They will blame failure on a bad install or just give you the run around plus they make you pay for the labor which can get really steep. Sure the part is free but labor is $2000 (Should be a law against that).
 
Last edited:
Mar 11, 2004
23,280
5,721
146
That is kinda weird OP. Wonder if they don't have some special deal where they get higher margins from the one brand or something that they would be installing if you went with the lower one. Or maybe they just know those systems more, or they were just trying to be legit honest and saying you probably didn't need it due to the ductwork.
 

Linux23

Lifer
Apr 9, 2000
11,333
705
126
i have a Goodman 3-ton system. been going strong about 10 years now. should have went 2 ton though. 5 minute cycles make the temp swings uncomfortable some times.
 

13Gigatons

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
7,461
500
126
i have a Goodman 3-ton system. been going strong about 10 years now. should have went 2 ton though. 5 minute cycles make the temp swings uncomfortable some times.

How big is your house?
How insulated is it?
What temperature is the thermostat set at?

My 3-ton can run for hours trying to cool down the house after a hot day...have thermostat to 72 degrees.
 

Linux23

Lifer
Apr 9, 2000
11,333
705
126
How big is your house?
How insulated is it?
What temperature is the thermostat set at?

My 3-ton can run for hours trying to cool down the house after a hot day...have thermostat to 72 degrees.
it's a two family and i live on the top floor. it was built in 1920'ish so there is very little insulation but the brick masonry.

if i set my temp to 72 i'd probably have to wear a sweater lol. i'm comfy at 78 or 79 degrees. but my house is uneven depending on the time of day.

but it would take a good hour to cool down on a really hot day after i came home from work, but after that 5-6 minute cycles.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,458
12,611
126
www.anyf.ca
Is it actually cooled off after a cycle is done? It sounds like something else is telling it to stop if the cycles are so short. Is the thermostat close to a supply vent by chance?
 

Linux23

Lifer
Apr 9, 2000
11,333
705
126
Is it actually cooled off after a cycle is done? It sounds like something else is telling it to stop if the cycles are so short. Is the thermostat close to a supply vent by chance?
i have an ecobee 3 with remote sensors, but yes the main thermostat is located right above the return vents, but the sensors are placed in different rooms. i can choose which sensor(s) i want to use in my comfort settings.
 

13Gigatons

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
7,461
500
126
it's a two family and i live on the top floor. it was built in 1920'ish so there is very little insulation but the brick masonry.

if i set my temp to 72 i'd probably have to wear a sweater lol. i'm comfy at 78 or 79 degrees. but my house is uneven depending on the time of day.

but it would take a good hour to cool down on a really hot day after i came home from work, but after that 5-6 minute cycles.

That's an old home so the insulation is not the issue I would guess. Having 5-6 minute cycles are pretty short and usually 20 minutes is ideal. The temperature set is pretty high but since you are comfortable at 79 then you should really turn off the A/C for a while. It's mostly about removing the humid air which really makes the difference.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,458
12,611
126
www.anyf.ca
My A/C cycles tend to last a couple hours, depends how hot it is initially but I find at around 22 it will start to go down very slowly, at least on the upstairs sensor. The downstairs will be reading like 18 when the upstairs one is still 22.

One of these days I want to zone my system, which might help. My house is split level so not even a full two storey but I find I still get a huge temp difference between the levels.