Patriotism and Loyalty.

[LeeTJ]

This has been on my mind a lot lately, then i saw that thing about the College bball player that would turn away from the flag and it really made me think about it again.

In a lot of other countries, particularly with long histories, the definition of citizenship and patriotism is a bit easier. usually there are cultural ties, language, physical characteristics etc.

In the US however, citizenship is voluntary. it's almost like a marriage and lately i've been getting the impression that a lot of people feel that patriotism is a take it or leave it proposition. that loyalty is based on agreement between the citizen and the government.

this bothers me.

I choose to be a US Citizen. I choose to give up citizenship from the country of my birth in order to be a U.S. citizen. I try to be a loyal and patriotic citizen and it shouldn't be based on everything always going the way I want it to.

OK so here it is.

patriotism, Loyalty, Fanaticism. Where do you draw the line??

Is it strictly a "i'll agree with you if you agree with me proposition?". many will say, if we never speak our mind when will we ever be heard?? but it's not that simple, if you have 300+ million people all expressing their opinions, how do you hear anything?? isn't that why we have a representative form of government?? because we believe that there are some common opinions that are more important than others? isn't that how we prioritize our opinions??

anyway, i know i haven't stated my proposition clearly, and mb i'm looking to get opinions of others to define this position for myself.

 

[TheShiz]

I definitely think blind patriotism is not a good thing. Governments have to be questioned, especially when lives are on the line. We should recognize that in this country we have the freedom of speech. If people want to turn their back on the flag there should be nothing in place to stop them from expressing their opinion. 300+ million people have their voice heard by forming groups with similar thoughts, look at the protests, their views have actually gotten media coverage because they got together and did something they believed in.

Tim

 

[Piano Man]

Good post, I've done a lot of thinking about this as well ever since 9/11. It really comes down to your core values as a human being. Do you believe in a higher moral order that transcends the very laws that were made to serve it even though those laws are sometimes misused? I do, but then so do religous fanatacs, and I have little in common with those people. I personally don't believe in patriotism anymore. I think like nationalism, it will eventually go the way of the dodo as more and more people in this world realize that we are all the same and learn to live and love each other as such. However, that may never come to pass.

 

[Kadarin]

The thing about that basketball player is that when she turns her back on the flag, whatever her intentions are her actions are perceived as her turning her back on everything that flag stands for. That's not the same thing as protesting Bush's actions with regard to Iraq.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
The thing about that basketball player is that when she turns her back on the flag, whatever her intentions are her actions are perceived as her turning her back on everything that flag stands for. That's not the same thing as protesting Bush's actions with regard to Iraq.

I can agree with that. And she is welcome to turn her back on the flag, if she is willing to take the heat for it. She has the right to make her statement.

 

[3L33T32003]

We have free speech here. If she wants to turn her back she can.

Thing is, the conservatives by and large don't understand free speech. Unless it is THEM speaking, of course. A true patriot openly questions what the government is doing when he thinks there is a problem, and his or her voice becomes louder and more strident with the depth of their conviction and the lack of a response.

The conservative mantra seems to be: "If you do NOT agree with Bush, you are unpatriotic." Bull$hit.

If we did not have true patriots digging for facts, things like Watergate would never have come to light.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: 3L33T32003
We have free speech here. If she wants to turn her back she can.

Thing is, the conservatives by and large don't understand free speech. Unless it is THEM speaking, of course. A true patriot openly questions what the government is doing when he thinks there is a problem, and his or her voice becomes louder and more strident with the depth of their conviction and the lack of a response.

The conservative mantra seems to be: "If you do NOT agree with Bush, you are unpatriotic." Bull$hit.

If we did not have true patriots digging for facts, things like Watergate would never have come to light.

here is the line tho. at what point do you say that she is being unloyal?? the question is of loyalty. loyalty means that you accept the decisions your leader makes even tho you don't completely agree with it.

most of these decisions are made based on a lot more information than we have access to. even in a democratic government not all information can be made accessible to the public. Is it possible that sometimes our objections on small matters would have been resolved if we had just waited??

part of the problem is the lack of patience by americans. we want to have our government agree with our every whim. often times we base our opinions on bad information. sometimes it's just a feeling we have.

here is what i was trying to say. We elect government and give them the power to reach certain goals. in the process of reaching these goals, the government may be required to do things that some of us individually may not agree with.

anyway, i know i'm not being clear because the issue is a pretty big one tho.

one more try. in order to reach certain economic goals, all of us are going to have to make sacrifices. there are absolutely NO options here. In order to reduce government debt, in order to reduce trade deficits our government will have to make some TOUGH choices.

I would like to see a real leader run for the office of president. Someone who i can say, I don't agree with everything he says, but i trust him to lead us.

that's what i don't see. It's not a blind trust (some may call it blind) but perhaps that is what is necessary.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: 3L33T32003
We have free speech here. If she wants to turn her back she can.

Thing is, the conservatives by and large don't understand free speech. Unless it is THEM speaking, of course. A true patriot openly questions what the government is doing when he thinks there is a problem, and his or her voice becomes louder and more strident with the depth of their conviction and the lack of a response.

The conservative mantra seems to be: "If you do NOT agree with Bush, you are unpatriotic." Bull$hit.

If we did not have true patriots digging for facts, things like Watergate would never have come to light.

What you speak of comes from both sides the fence. Liberals have the same problems when hearing things they dont agree with.

 

[Lithium381]

something to add, might be relevant, maybe not.......why do people immigrate here and then complain? not to be racist and single them out, but the hispanics....it's just i see it alot....if it's so bad to be here why not leave!? I also find that May 5th is a big holiday......why do we celebrate it so activly here? are they mexican or american!? i don't get it(remember, i'm not looking to flame here...)

 

[koryo]

To me there's nothing more patriotic than someone who has the guts to tell the system to go kiss off, and nothing more pathetic than people who use stuff like "rally behind the president" and "if you don't like it, then leave" to defend otherwise indefensible ideas.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: 3L33T32003
We have free speech here. If she wants to turn her back she can.

Thing is, the conservatives by and large don't understand free speech. Unless it is THEM speaking, of course. A true patriot openly questions what the government is doing when he thinks there is a problem, and his or her voice becomes louder and more strident with the depth of their conviction and the lack of a response.

The conservative mantra seems to be: "If you do NOT agree with Bush, you are unpatriotic." Bull$hit.

If we did not have true patriots digging for facts, things like Watergate would never have come to light.

That's not the Conservative Mantra, that's the "fscking Idiots who don't know squat and call them themselves Conservative" Mantra. The Conservative Mantra is "If you don't agree with me then you are a Liberal". The "fscking Idiots who don't know squat and call them themselves Conservative" do that too but the real Conservatives don't question ones Patriotism if one disagrees with Bush or thinks Bush is a Moron because the Conservative often wonders if Bush is a Moron too.

 

[SlowSS]

Originally posted by: 3L33T32003
We have free speech here. If she wants to turn her back she can.

Thing is, the conservatives by and large don't understand free speech. Unless it is THEM speaking, of course. A true patriot openly questions what the government is doing when he thinks there is a problem, and his or her voice becomes louder and more strident with the depth of their conviction and the lack of a response.

The conservative mantra seems to be: "If you do NOT agree with Bush, you are unpatriotic." Bull$hit.

If we did not have true patriots digging for facts, things like Watergate would never have come to light.

Same BS can be said about liberals.....The liberals would say "If you agree with Bush, you are a sheep and a war-war-monger"

I'm a conservative and yet I belive in freedom of speech even if I completely disagree with liberal's issues.
I believe it is healthy to have disagreements, as long as it is debated in a mature manner instead of resorting
to name calling. I also don't agree with blind party loyalty, I certainly don't agree with every conservative's platform.

That Basketball player have a right to turn her back on the flag to make her statement, just as I have a right
to display a flag on my yard. That is what makes this country great, we have right to speak out or make political
statements without worrying about retribution.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Now, who said it and why for 15 points.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SlowSS

Originally posted by: 3L33T32003
We have free speech here. If she wants to turn her back she can.

Thing is, the conservatives by and large don't understand free speech. Unless it is THEM speaking, of course. A true patriot openly questions what the government is doing when he thinks there is a problem, and his or her voice becomes louder and more strident with the depth of their conviction and the lack of a response.

The conservative mantra seems to be: "If you do NOT agree with Bush, you are unpatriotic." Bull$hit.

If we did not have true patriots digging for facts, things like Watergate would never have come to light.

Same BS can be said about liberals.....The liberals would say "If you agree with Bush, you are a sheep and a war-war-monger"

I'm a conservative and yet I belive in freedom of speech even if I completely disagree with liberal's issues.
I believe it is healthy to have disagreements, as long as it is debated in a mature manner instead of resorting
to name calling. I also don't agree with blind party loyalty, I certainly don't agree with every conservative's platform.

That Basketball player have a right to turn her back on the flag to make her statement, just as I have a right
to display a flag on my yard. That is what makes this country great, we have right to speak out or make political
statements without worrying about retribution.

I never understood the reason for burning the flag or disrespecting it. If you want to get your point across what sense does it make to piss off those who you are trying to convince that your point of view is right?

 

[LeeTJ]

some interesting points, regarding immigrants, i guess i was such an immigrant. i choose to be patriotic and loyal to the country of my choice. i agree that this is not true of all immigrants.

the remark about nothing more patriotic . . .

ya ya ya, fine and good, BUT it isn't that simple. very often these people have ulterior motives. you have to ask what their real agenda is. it's not always patriotism, i can guarantee you that. there are many people who come here just to take advantage of economics and to take down the system politically.

once again, i'm really curious about leadership tho. How many of you would follow a real leader. Someone who can show you a plan (you may not agree with all of it) but a plan that is consistent, one that has a chance, These PLATFORMS that current politicians run with are not PLANS, there is not direction, they are just piecemeal ideas. words really, just words no real promises implied. words that they THINK you want to hear. I'd rather vote for someone who has a specific agenda and really does't care to phrase all his words so that i won't be offended.

for eg. flat tax, i believe in it, if someone came along (i would have voted for forbes for eg) and showed me a plan, it wouldn't matter to me whethor or not i agree with him on the issue of abortion, gun control, education, military spending etc etc. how have those things become issues by which we elect leaders??

i want a leader who will say, Here, this is the way, follow me. I'd follow. i really would.

 

[ScottyB]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SlowSS

Originally posted by: 3L33T32003
We have free speech here. If she wants to turn her back she can.

Thing is, the conservatives by and large don't understand free speech. Unless it is THEM speaking, of course. A true patriot openly questions what the government is doing when he thinks there is a problem, and his or her voice becomes louder and more strident with the depth of their conviction and the lack of a response.

The conservative mantra seems to be: "If you do NOT agree with Bush, you are unpatriotic." Bull$hit.

If we did not have true patriots digging for facts, things like Watergate would never have come to light.

Same BS can be said about liberals.....The liberals would say "If you agree with Bush, you are a sheep and a war-war-monger"

I'm a conservative and yet I belive in freedom of speech even if I completely disagree with liberal's issues.
I believe it is healthy to have disagreements, as long as it is debated in a mature manner instead of resorting
to name calling. I also don't agree with blind party loyalty, I certainly don't agree with every conservative's platform.

That Basketball player have a right to turn her back on the flag to make her statement, just as I have a right
to display a flag on my yard. That is what makes this country great, we have right to speak out or make political
statements without worrying about retribution.

I never understood the reason for burning the flag or disrespecting it. If you want to get your point across what sense does it make to piss off those who you are trying to convince that your point of view is right?

'cause then you can laugh at them.