Patriot Act II

[UltraQuiet]

It seems there is more on the way. Better protection for Americans or further erosion of civil liberties? Some of both? There is a link in the article to the actual document.

The Bush Administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the USA Patriot Act passed in the wake of September 11, 2001, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information.

PAII

 

[Kev]

oh boy, here we go...

 

[SuperTool]

What will George Wissarionovich Bush and John Beria Ashcroft think of next?

 

[datalink7]

I'd prefere to have my liberties intact than to have better protection. But maybe that is just me.

 

[TheShiz]

I like how they name these things, who is going to vote against the "patriot" act, it is so ridiculous it should not be allowed, make the name have a meaning please.

Tim

 

[PrinceofWands]

revolution calling, revolution calling....

 

[jahawkin]

Section 501, "Expatriation of Terrorists": This provision, the drafters say, would establish that an American citizen could be expatriated "if, with the intent to relinquish his nationality, he becomes a member of, or provides material support to, a group that the United Stated has designated as a 'terrorist organization'." But whereas a citizen formerly had to state his intent to relinquish his citizenship, the new law affirms that his intent can be "inferred from conduct." Thus, engaging in the lawful activities of a group designated as a "terrorist organization" by the Attorney General could be presumptive grounds for expatriation.

Great. That will never get abused.

 

[xBopx]

This is scary sh!t. Before we know it, our government will be the ones committing the terror acts against its citizens. Heck, its already starting to happen to some of us.

 

[reitz]

It seems there is more on the way. Better protection for Americans or further erosion of civil liberties? Some of both? There is a link in the article to the actual document.

I haven't read the article yet, but I'll comment anyway. I have a serious problem with The USA PATRIOT Act Part One, mainly because it simply wasn't necessary. We already have all of the tools necessary to combat terrorism, and passing more laws is just stupid when all that needs to be done is to get the CIA to clean up it's act and cooperate with other departments.

The September 11th terrorist attacks should not have happened, and the blame should rest squarely on the shoulders of the CIA. From Newsweek, June 10, 2002, "The Hijackers We Let Escape":

Tucked away in a posh suburban condominium [in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia] overlooking a Jack Nicklaus-designed golf course, nearly a dozen of Osama bin Laden's trusted followers, posing as tourists, plotten future terrorist strikes against the United States [in January 2000].

A few days after the Kuala Lumpur meeting, NEWSWEEK has learned, the CIA tracked one of the terrorists, Nawaf Alhazmi, as he flew from the meeting to Los Angeles. Agents discovered that another of the men, Khalid Almihdhar, had already obtained a multiple-entry visa that allowed him to enter and leave the United States as he pleased. (They later learned that he had in fact arrived in the United States on the same flight as Alhazmi.)

Yet astonishingly, the CIA did nothing with this information. Agency officials didn't tell the INS, which could have turned them away at the border, nor did they notify the FBI, which could have covertly tracked them to find out their mission.

...the CIA's Counterterrorism Center--base camp for the agency's war on bin Laden--was sitting on information that could have led federal agents right to the terrorists' doorstep. Almihdhar and Alhazmi, parading across American in plain sight, could not have been easier to find. NEWSWEEK has learned that when Almihdhar's visa expired, the State Department, not knowing any better, simply issued him a new one in June 2001--even though by then the CIA had linked him to one of the suspected bombers of the USS Cole in October 2000.

CIA officials also point out that FBI agents assigned to the CIA's Counterterrorism Center were at least informed about the Malaysia meeting and the presence of Almihdhar and Alhazmi at the time it occurred. But FBI officials protest that they only recently learned about the most crucial peice of information: That the CIA knew Alhazmi was in the country, and that Almihdhar could enter at will. "That was unforgivable," said one senior FBI official.

To bolster their case, FBI officials have now prepared a detailed chart showing how agents could have uncovered the terrorist plot if they had learned about Almihdhar and Alhazmi sooner, given their frequent contact with at least five of the other hijackers. "There's no question we could have tied all 19 hijackers together," the official said.

After the meeting, Malaysian intelligence continued to watch the condo at the CIA's request, but after a while the agency lost interest. Had agents kep up the suveillance, they might have observed another beneficiary of Sufaat's charity: Zacarias Moussaoui, who stayed there on his way to the United States later that year. The Malaysians say they were surprised by the CIA's lack of interest following the Kuala Lumpur meeting. "We couldn't fathom it , really," Rais Yatim, Malaysia's Legal Affairs minister told NEWSWEEK. "There was no show of concern."

The CIA's reluctance to divulge what it knew is especially odd because, as 2000 dawned, U.S. law-enforcement agencies were on red alert, certain that a bin Laden strike somewhere in the world could come at any moment. There was certainly reason to believe bin Laden was sending men here to do grave harm. Just a few weeks before, an alert Customs inspector had caught another Qaeda terrorist, Ahmed Ressam, as he tried to cross the Canadian border in a rental car packed with explosives.

If the CIA had done it's job properly; the job we, as American citizens and taxpayers are paying for it to do, September 11th likely would not have happened. The CIA should have alerted the FBI as soon as Alhazmi entered the country, and the FBI could have followed his trail to the other 19.

Instead, the CIA--whether deliberately or not--seriously dropped the ball and consequently over three thousand of our countrymen lost their lives. What has our government done in response? Has it held those in charge of the CIA accountable? Has it taken any serious steps to force greater cooperation between the CIA and other agencies? Has it demanded the CIA to disclose everything it knew? No, instead it passed the USA PATRIOT Act, allowing government agencies much greater powers to issue wiretaps, intercept emails, and confiscate private records without a warrant. It amended the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 to make it illegal for anyone presented with a subpoena regarding a terrorism investigation to disclose not only the contents of the subpoena, but the fact that he was presented with a subpoena at all. It removed judicial oversight from any investigation involving terrorism, and allowed the investigating agencies sole discretion in classifying such investigations.

Am I in the minority in thinking this is truly fucked up? We already have the tools necessary to combat terrorism...9/11 happened only because the CIA fucked up big time. Instead of passing draconian new laws, why can't the government take action against the beaurocratic mess that allowed 9/11 to happen in the first place?

 

[Zim Hosein]

Originally posted by: jahawkin

Section 501, "Expatriation of Terrorists": This provision, the drafters say, would establish that an American citizen could be expatriated "if, with the intent to relinquish his nationality, he becomes a member of, or provides material support to, a group that the United Stated has designated as a 'terrorist organization'." But whereas a citizen formerly had to state his intent to relinquish his citizenship, the new law affirms that his intent can be "inferred from conduct." Thus, engaging in the lawful activities of a group designated as a "terrorist organization" by the Attorney General could be presumptive grounds for expatriation.

Great. That will never get abused.

Je*us Chri*t, that's scary *hit! :Q

 

[xBopx]

Originally posted by: reitz

Am I in the minority in thinking this is truly fucked up? We already have the tools necessary to combat terrorism...9/11 happened only because the CIA fucked up big time. Instead of passing draconian new laws, why can't the government take action against the beaurocratic mess that allowed 9/11 to happen in the first place?

Sadly, some people in the government seem to want to destroy the values our country was built on. Instead of fighting terrorists, they are becoming terrorists.

 

[Piano Man]

The way to fight terrorism is to educate people and to not treat others who are different like complete sh!t. Yes, its that f*cking simple. But no, we have to take away more liberties in order to fight terrorism. Fight? Fighting is what caused this crap in the first place.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

The terrorists are winning.

 

[Vic]

Free men are better fighters than slaves.
If America is threatened, laws like these will merely hasten our demise.

As for Ashcroft, his removal from office, indictment, and long imprisionment can't come soon enough for me. :|

 

[derek2034]

Let's hope it doesn't get past this very premature stage. Needless to say, this would be terrible. Just the fact that Ashcroft could draft such a piece of legislature should show everyone his true colors. How could anyone support this monster?

 

[Insane3D]

You know what they say about the road to hell....

:disgust:

 

[RSMemphis]

I am missing the people who normally write that "it won't affect law-abiding citizens" and "is a good way of getting rid of terrorists"...

Hmm, there must be a popular democrat bashing thread going on right now.

 

[derek2034]

Some of these people will never believe their beloved republicans could ever do anything wrong until they wake up behind bars, for nothing.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think (hope) this is going to have a tougher time getting through Congress.

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
I think (hope) this is going to have a tougher time getting through Congress.

No, they'll just "manufacture" some event so that everyone will be happy for its passing through congress.

 

[43st]

From my topic that was a repost of this...

draft.pdf

It looks like the DOJ had a leak. This document was picked up by The Center for Public Integrity and is now being investigated by independant sources. It's a draft proposal for changes to the PATRIOT act. The Department of Justice now wants secret arrests, amoung some other questionable things.

Links:
Bill Moyers link
Full article (slow)

And a quote from the article:

Dr. David Cole, Georgetown University Law professor and author of Terrorism and the Constitution, reviewed the draft legislation at the request of the Center, and said that the legislation ?raises a lot of serious concerns. It?s troubling that they have gotten this far along and they?ve been telling people there is nothing in the works.? This proposed law, he added, ?would radically expand law enforcement and intelligence gathering authorities, reduce or eliminate judicial oversight over surveillance, authorize secret arrests, create a DNA database based on unchecked executive ?suspicion,? create new death penalties, and even seek to take American citizenship away from persons who belong to or support disfavored political groups.?

For me this goes beyond partison politics. No matter your political party this should be a concern.

 

[Red Dawn]

The bill, drafted by the staff of Attorney General John Ashcroft

That right there is enough to cause me great concern Why can't this guy do the country a favor and choke to death on a pretzel!

 

[Electrode]

I am now offically terror-stricken.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

The bill, drafted by the staff of Attorney General John Ashcroft

That right there is enough to cause me great concern Why can't this guy do the country a favor and choke to death on a pretzel!

If only we were this lucky.

It may sound like the rantings of a delusional but Ashcroft is MORE dangerous to the average American than ANY terrorist!
Freakin' anal retentive, Nazi scumbag.

I will never move back to the states with this assmunch in office and especially if he achieves his goal of raping Americans of civil liberties.

Someone please push this man in front of a bus. And, while you are at it, take out the Drug Czar also.

 

[wQuay]

No, they'll just "manufacture" some event so that everyone will be happy for its passing through congress.

True. The first Patriot Act was prepared before 9/11, and we're now officially in condition orange. An attack could be weeks away.