Patents for "Secure" Inventions

[daniel1113]

I've always been under the impression that information regarding patents is open to anyone that wants it. However, if this is the case, how to company's such as Diebold, Masterlock, etc. keep the mechanical workings behind some of their top-secret mechanical locks and such from the public sector? Are there specific provisions for these kinds of inventions?

EDIT: Patents, not copyrights 🙂

 

[Colt45]

I was not aware there were any top secret mechanical locks

 

[EyeMWing]

Originally posted by: daniel1113
I've always been under the impression that information regarding copyrights is open to anyone that wants it. However, if this is the case, how to company's such as Diebold, Masterlock, etc. keep the mechanical workings behind some of their top-secret mechanical locks and such from the public sector? Are there specific provisions for these kinds of inventions?

First, these are patents. Second, I *BELIEVE* you can make special arrangements with the patent office in cases where national defense is at stake. Third, I'm not aware of any lock that isn't commercially pickable.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Colt45
I was not aware there were any top secret mechanical locks

Perhaps my examples are poor, but surely there are various inventions that need to be kept secret...

 

[quakefiend420]

well then what about <insert top secret thing here>...or whatever the case may be...something you wouldnt want the general public to be privy to...

 

[EyeMWing]

A better example here would be the guidance system on a JDAM.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: daniel1113
I've always been under the impression that information regarding copyrights is open to anyone that wants it. However, if this is the case, how to company's such as Diebold, Masterlock, etc. keep the mechanical workings behind some of their top-secret mechanical locks and such from the public sector? Are there specific provisions for these kinds of inventions?

s/copyrights/patents

If the security of a device depends on attackers not knowing how the device works, then the device isn't secure, so this isn't an issue.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

I think you mean patents.

And the idea behind a patent is that everyone gets to see and use your idea, you just a. keep the credit and b. control the technology for 20 years.

If someone wants to keep an idea "secret", they don't patent it and hope no one figures out how they did it. AMD and Intel have been reverse engineering each other for years in this way, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Colt45]

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
A better example here would be the guidance system on a JDAM.

Just don't register it?

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
If someone wants to keep an idea "secret", they don't patent it and hope no one figures out how they did it. AMD and Intel have been reverse engineering each other for years in this way, if I'm not mistaken.

That seems logical, but risky.

 

[Bootprint]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
I think you mean patents.

And the idea behind a patent is that everyone gets to see and use your idea, you just a. keep the credit and b. control the technology for 20 years.

If someone wants to keep an idea "secret", they don't patent it and hope no one figures out how they did it. AMD and Intel have been reverse engineering each other for years in this way, if I'm not mistaken.

That's my understanding of the process as well.

You need to a patent public or else someone might be using it and not know.

 

[Shame]

Originally posted by: Colt45

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
A better example here would be the guidance system on a JDAM.

Just don't register it?

Huh?

Write the patent office and request specs to the JDAM system. Include $3.95 for shipping and handling. Should arrive in 4 -6 weeks.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
If someone wants to keep an idea "secret", they don't patent it and hope no one figures out how they did it. AMD and Intel have been reverse engineering each other for years in this way, if I'm not mistaken.

That seems logical, but risky.

Well, it doesn't work terribly well on commercial products. 🙂 There's a lot of loopholes in patent law, so an idea used in one product can be changed just enough in another that it warrants a whole new patent and thus the company doesn't have to get permission/pay royalties to the originiating company. Such is my understanding of it, anyway.

 

[Colt45]

Originally posted by: Shame

Originally posted by: Colt45

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
A better example here would be the guidance system on a JDAM.

Just don't register it?

Huh?

Write the patent office and request specs to the JDAM system. Include $3.95 for shipping and handling. Should arrive in 4 -6 weeks.

Ok then, so the guy's example is at fault not me 😉

 

[EyeMWing]

Originally posted by: Shame

Originally posted by: Colt45

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
A better example here would be the guidance system on a JDAM.

Just don't register it?

Huh?

Write the patent office and request specs to the JDAM system. Include $3.95 for shipping and handling. Should arrive in 4 -6 weeks.

Yeah, hand-delivered by the FBI and CIA on suspicion of terrorist activities 😛

 

[bsobel]

If the security of a device depends on attackers not knowing how the device works, then the device isn't secure, so this isn't an issue.

Well, that is a simplistic view. The truth is, for many weapon systems, the inventors can file patents however those patents can be kept secret. Since the defender can't get access to the device to reverse engineer (in theory) the secrecy remains. It makes no sense to then publish details on how the device works, so those same defenders can work on countermeasures.

Bill

 

[damonpip]

Two words: trade secrets

Basically, if you don't want anyone to know how your invention works, you can't patent it. The formula for Coke is a trade secret, I think many CPU designs are as well.

 

[Shame]

Originally posted by: EyeMWing

Originally posted by: Shame

Originally posted by: Colt45

Originally posted by: EyeMWing
A better example here would be the guidance system on a JDAM.

Just don't register it?

Huh?

Write the patent office and request specs to the JDAM system. Include $3.95 for shipping and handling. Should arrive in 4 -6 weeks.

Yeah, hand-delivered by the FBI and CIA on suspicion of terrorist activities 😛

Again no problem at all. Just tell them that you pay taxes and are entitled to it. The thing you need to do is cover all your bases. Here's what I did: Last year on my 1040A I put next to my signature, "For purchase of JDAM systems only". If you do that, and you have $3.95, you are entitled to blueprints. 😀

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: damonpip
Two words: trade secrets

Basically, if you don't want anyone to know how your invention works, you can't patent it. The formula for Coke is a trade secret, I think many CPU designs are as well.

Trade Secrets

That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

 

[sohcrates]

1) trade secrets. it's not in their best interest to patent a lot of things that affect entire industries

2) yes, the patent office has a special sector for "secure" patents. these are 99% national security risk patents. They are highly guarded and workers in those areas must have top secret clearance. There are special arrangements made so they are not openly public even though that is the intent of the patent system

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: sohcrates
1) trade secrets. it's not in their best interest to patent a lot of things that affect entire industries

2) yes, the patent office has a special sector for "secure" patents. these are 99% national security risk patents. They are highly guarded and workers in those areas must have top secret clearance. There are special arrangements made so they are not openly public even though that is the intent of the patent system

Ah. Thanks for that info as well.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: sohcrates
1) trade secrets. it's not in their best interest to patent a lot of things that affect entire industries

2) yes, the patent office has a special sector for "secure" patents. these are 99% national security risk patents. They are highly guarded and workers in those areas must have top secret clearance. There are special arrangements made so they are not openly public even though that is the intent of the patent system

What's the point of a patent if the idea isn't supposed to be known by anyone in the first place? Are you going to take someone to court and sue them for stealing your idea that they never knew you had?

 

[suse920]

Originally posted by: OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two words: trade secrets

Basically, if you don't want anyone to know how your invention works, you can't patent it. The formula for Coke is a trade secret, I think many CPU designs are as well.