Partitioning and Fragmentation

[farnsbarns]

Hi, great site here thought Id avail myself of some of your knowledge if thats ok

I want to install XP and the following on a single 320gb HDD, the 2nd 500gb HDD will be for occasional backups and not live in the case.
They are both same spec but 320gb has 2 platters, the 500gb has 3. I heard bigger HDDs are a bit quicker due to data being nearer the edge for seeks but as the platters are the same size for both HDDs Im not sure this matters?

Id really like to use the 320gb as its quieter and cooler, assuming performance is pretty much the same as 500gb.

I definitely want a separate data partition for music and movies but (heres where Im unsure) Id ideally like a separate games partition so I can reinstall windows by itself if needed.
However will this noticeably affect game load times by not being on the first partition?

Also will it increase fragmentation by having 2 smaller partitions instead of a bigger C:? If I used the 500gb I could of course have bigger partitions if that improves performance and fragmentation.
So does fragmentation increase the less free space you have , or only once you reach the 15% threshold?

Also I have a ton of ISOs, .daa's etc (backups actually, nothing dodgy) and keep them on the HDD permanently but are they just as liable to fragment as if the mounted data was in a normal folder?


The 320gb would ideally look like:

C: XPpro + small apps 40 gb?
D: Games 80gb 100 gb?
E: Spare (maybe linux, vista or video editing) 20 gb?
F: MP3, movies, ISOs 120gb+ 160 gb?


I don't really do much video editing so thats not a biggie, however I have never used HDD imaging software like Ghost etc, and the 500gb would allow me to ghost the 40gb OS partition to the back of the drive.
Otherwise I would just ghost to the backup drive which is probably a better idea anyway.


If it was the 500gb it would look something like

C: XP + apps 40 gb
D: Games - 80gb+ 180 gb
E: Video editing and/or test Vista, Linux etc 80 gb
F: MP3, movies, ISOs - 120gb+ 200 gb

Sorry to be so verbose but basically wondering if there is a noticeable performance difference between the 2 configurations above and if its faster and more reliable (less fragmentation) to have bigger partitions and/or Games on C: with OS.

 

[Blain]

Multiple partitions do not give you the performance of actual multiple HDs...
just so you know.

 

[farnsbarns]

Yep I know, I just want 1 HDD in the case and only point of partitions is to separate Data and Games in case I have to reinstall OS.
So was wondering if having Games separate from OS will increase load times and if having smaller partitions (instead of one big C increases fragmentation.
Hmm why didnt I just say that to start with

 

[JackMDS]

I there is minute differences of few microsec. between the arrangments, it is nothing that would be noticeable functionally.

 

[blackangst1]

Your summary of a tentative build looks fine. It is always smart to keep your OS seperate just in case And as previously stated, the real world difference between two hard drives and two partitions is negligable.

 

[farnsbarns]

Ok, what about fragmentation? I know you have to keep OS partitition at least 15% free but will there by any difference in rate of fragmentation if say its 30/40gb used (25% free) vs 10/40gb used (75% free) ? or 200/250gb used vs 50/250gb used etc
I ask because I let my C:/ OS get 90% full and even after I removed most stuff and defragged, the paging file is still fragmented and C:/ gets heavily fragmented after less than a week of normal use

Also any idea if .ISOs can fragment after being on the HDD forever, I was thinking it would be treated as 1 big file so maybe it wouldnt fragment

Im going to reinstall but I want to do it properly this time

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: farnsbarns
Ok, what about fragmentation? I know you have to keep OS partitition at least 15% free but will there by any difference in rate of fragmentation if say its 30/40gb used (25% free) vs 10/40gb used (75% free) ? or 200/250gb used vs 50/250gb used etc
I ask because I let my C:/ OS get 90% full and even after I removed most stuff and defragged, the paging file is still fragmented and C:/ gets heavily fragmented after less than a week of normal use

Also any idea if .ISOs can fragment after being on the HDD forever, I was thinking it would be treated as 1 big file so maybe it wouldnt fragment

Im going to reinstall but I want to do it properly this time

For XP, yes, you should have 15% free. Yes, an ISO will fragment (just because it's one large file doesnt mean windows will put in on contiguous blocks).

The rate of fragmentation is directly related to use of files. In other words, if a disk is rarely accessed, it wont fragment much. If it's like my storage disk and gets stuff added, moved, deleted almost daily, than it fragments fast. IMHO I would consider using a 3rd party defrag tool, and everyone has their favorite (Mine is Diskkeeper), but most will give you the option of silent defrag. It will monitor and defrag during downtime, or you can set it to defrag on a schedule i.e. once a day, once a week, twice a week, etc.

 

[farnsbarns]

The reason I stress fragmentation is because it wears out the disk over a very long time, and my OS partition currently needs defragging weekly
I think its because I overfilled it and borked the MFT or something, should be ok after a format.

Is it more likely to fragment if its 30% free instead of 60% free? Thus would my games partition be ok at 70/100gb used or should I put it in a bigger partition? These are modern 5gb+ games with big load times etc.
Thanks for any help, I appreciate it.

 

[martensite]

Originally posted by: farnsbarns
I ask because I let my C:/ OS get 90% full and even after I removed most stuff and defragged, the paging file is still fragmented and C:/ gets heavily fragmented after less than a week of normal use

Make a separate partition for the paging file? Say 3-4 GB, at the beginning of the platter (theoretically the fastest for access) on the second drive? That should prevent the paging file from fragmenting and inducing fragmentation of other files in the OS partition.

I have 2 drives in my rig currently, the 250GB is a Seagate 7200.10 (16MB) while the Hitachi 160GB is a T7k250 (8MB). I have it set it up the main partitions like this

Seagate
C: Win XP Pro approx 30GB
M: approx 120 GB for movies, mp3 etc
E: approx 100 GB for downloads, temp stuff etc.

Hitachi
S: 4 GB Swap/page file
D: approx 120 GB for Program files, games etc
W: truecrypt

There is enough free space on all the partitions to manually defrag quickly if need be, but I have automatic defrag enabled for the OS partitions and my program files partition..both of which see the most file activity and therefore fragmentation. Automatic defrag is great...it keeps both partitions neatly defragged most of the time in the background, and I dont need to do waste my time with manual defragging.

 

[farnsbarns]

Im only using a single HDD though, otherwise I would do what you said, especially after a google today pagefile placement

Just wondering though if the amount of free space affects fragmentation, assuming I have more than 15% free.

Also what about this? If Games are on D: but some savegames are in C:/ my documents, will that noticeably increase load times?
Some modern games like Stalker take up to 1min to load savegames sometimes, on my current PC.
I know I can move my docs to D: but Id rather not.

 

[Blain]

* Partitioning is way overrated (more than OS & a storage).
* Worrying about fragmentation deteriating a HD "over a very long time" is pointless, given how fast larger and cheaper drives are getting.
* Why bother with weekly defragging when you can do it daily with SmartDefrag?

 

[0roo0roo]

don't nit pick, just get a new drive, they are fast. higher density=fast sequential reads. its hardly a big thing anymore,its cpu/ram/gpu that make performance enjoyable these days.

i just use a smaller partition to make restoring o/s images easier. or if you want to format c: without having to shuffle masses of media files and such around. beyond that theres not much to worry about, fragmentation is not a biggie these days. harddrives aren't so significant anymore with ram being so dirt cheap. massive page file access is a thing of the past for most users.

what matters is density for speed assuming you don't get a raptor. if the 320gb is older generation using more platters than it will be slower than a newer 500gb with less platters. each generation tends to have a line of different sizes depending on how many platters they put in, but each gen will obviously have a higher max capacity model. so assuming the drives aren't duds the newer one is generally faster.
storagereview.com used to have decent reviews, i haven't looked recently though.

i used to use ghost, but now acronis is better.

 

[farnsbarns]

As I said in the first post (hard to read tho sorry) both HDDs I have are same latest spec and platter size (16mb cache 167gb platters), I wan to use the 320 instead of 500gb as its cooler and quieter but not if the smaller partition sizes will increase fragementation.
Also I read something about larger HDDs being a little faster cos the data is nearer the edge so the arm doesnt have to seek as far or something. If its like <1% diff I dont care though.

Fragmentation is annoying though as I do it manually (PC turns off at night) and Id guess daily defrags with all that seek activity would wear the disk down a lot faster than normal use.

Also I have never used disk imaging software but just D/Ld Acronis trial, whats the difference in reliability/file integrity between Acronis/Ghost and just copying/dragging my D:/ MP3 partition to the new formatted HDD in windows explorer?

Is imaging software like Acronis the only way to move an active windows partition? Im kind of n00b so Im guessing simply copy/pasting it to C: on the new HDD wont work

 

[blackangst1]

Dude...youre making this too complicated lol...after SP2, having a seperate partition for pagefile just doesnt benefit the aveage user. Unless youre a benchmark freak, dont bother. (Sorry to you guys who still think it's a noticable tweak, but it really isnt an advantage anymore). Let Windows manage your MFT and your pagefile. Any advantage to creating a larger or seperate pagefile is undone by memory. Its a moot point.

Acronis is probably the easiest and best imaging proggy out right now. Thr learning curve is a bit steep, but worth it.

XP *does* allow you to schedule defrags whenever you want; however, its file arrangement is a little goofy, which is why I recommended a third party utility to manage your defrags silently. Unless youre going to use Vista, in which case the defrag built in is is the same as any third party software. Like the OS itself, it was completely rewritten for the OS.

Good luck

 

[Fraggable]

Originally posted by: farnsbarns

I definitely want a separate data partition for music and movies but (heres where Im unsure) Id ideally like a separate games partition so I can reinstall windows by itself if needed.
However will this noticeably affect game load times by not being on the first partition?

If you have to reinstall Windows, you're going to have to reinstall every other piece of software on your PC anyway so why create a separate partition for software? All that does is create the possibility that your OS or software partition gets full and you'd have to rethink your setup and merge partitions to make space. Having your software on a separate drive from the OS isn't worth doing, there's virtually nothing to be gained by doing that other than having to change the default install folder EVERY TIME you install something.

I'd suggest:

C: OS Partition on 500GB drive - leave the page file there.
D: Data drive on 500GB drive
E: 320GB drive for backups of data from D: drive. Just automate it daily or weekly with Windows Backup and forget it. Map your 'My Documents' folder to D: and that's it.

And as far as fragmentation, I think you're seriously overthinking it. I do extensive, and I mean extensive, work on my PC installing/uninstalling software and working with small and large files, and my fragmentation never gets so bad it has to be done weekly. Like you said, your MFT or something is messed up and it gets bad faster than it should. Having a lot of free space will help keep it from getting bad.