Part of UK report on Iraq downloaded from internet

nowareman

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Jun 4, 2003
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I found this article about UK intel reports before the Iraq war.

This is The Sunday Telegraph link to the original story.

The intel reports in the UK might have been tweaked. What do you think? They are calling it the "dodgy dossier" in the UK. Is it OK to use a "dodgy dossier" to convince a nation to go to war?

Iraq Arms Report Mishandled, Blair Aide Concedes in Letter
By WARREN HOGE


LONDON, June 8 ? A top aide to Prime Minister Tony Blair wrote to the head of Britain's intelligence service earlier this spring conceding that the government's presentation of a report on Iraqi arms was mishandled and promising that "far greater care" would be taken with files in the future so as not to discredit the spy agency's work, a British newspaper said today.

The government admission that Alastair Campbell, Mr. Blair's director of communications, had written a letter of explanation to Sir Richard Dearlove, chief of the Secret Intelligence Service, known as MI6, came as the use of intelligence findings to muster support for the war on Iraq has increasingly come under questioning.

The apologetic letter was reported today by The Sunday Telegraph and confirmed by a Downing Street spokesman. He said that Mr. Campbell had told intelligence chiefs that procedures for handling information would be tightened and that "far greater care would be taken in dealing with anything that might impact on their reputation or their work."

The report, "Iraq: Its Infrastructure of Concealment, Deception and Intimidation," was made public in February as Mr. Blair tried to persuade the dubious British public of the need to forcefully disarm Saddam Hussein.

It is now referred to in the British news media as the "dodgy dossier" because of evidence that part of it was downloaded from the Internet ? complete with typographical errors ? from an American student's thesis that relied on 12-year-old public information.

An earlier report, published in September, is now under review by two parliamentary committees because of doubts raised about its central claim: that Iraq's chemical and biological weapons were in such a state of readiness that they could be launched within 45 minutes.

The controversy over that claim obliged Mr. Blair to reassure Parliament on Wednesday that his government had not embellished spy reports to exaggerate the threat of unconventional weapons and justify the war.

At the time, Britain took on the assignment of disclosing intelligence findings because, the thinking then went, the information would be more credible and trustworthy to critics of the war and in the Muslim world if it came from London rather than Washington.

Various newspapers have reported that intelligence officers here were pressured to produce positive evidence of unconventional weapons in the period leading up to the war. Those reports were backed up today by Robin Cook, a former foreign secretary who quit his cabinet position as leader of the Commons after Britain decided to enter the war without United Nations approval.

Speaking on the BBC, Mr. Cook, who resigned on March 17, said government officials had been selective in searching espionage files. "When they looked at intelligence," he said, "they weren't looking at intelligence to try to get a balanced judgment, a guide to policy, out of it, they were looking to intelligence to support a conclusion they had already come to ? which is that they were going to go to war."

Concerning the intelligence files, the Downing Street spokesman said today that there had been "an error of omission in the dossier, where we should have made the attribution clearer ? those elements which came from intelligence sources and those elements which came from publicly available sources."

The spokesman added, "What did happen in the wake of the controversy surrounding the dossier was that Alastair Campbell spoke to those responsible for its production and demanded a tightening of procedures."

Mr. Blair, the United States' principal ally in the war, has been under attack from opponents of the conflict and dissidents in his own party because of the failure to find chemical, biological or nuclear weapons in Iraq.

Similar concern has been expressed in the United States about the Bush administration's use of intelligence data. Still, the pressure on Mr. Blair is particularly intense since he had emphasized the threat of a potential terror strike using Iraq's unconventional weapons as the sole basis for going to war.

The British public was more dubious about the war than Americans were, and many Britons are aggressively pressing their concern about possible manipulation of information. They have been joined by the opposition Conservatives, who backed the war, in calling for an independent judicial inquiry, a move the government is resisting.

Tam Dalyell, a Labor parliamentarian who is the longest-serving member of the House of Commons and a persistent critic of Mr. Blair and the war, said in a statement today: "The implication of what Campbell said is that Britain went to war against Iraq on the basis of carelessness. I do not see what other conclusion can be drawn."

 

Fencer128

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Jun 18, 2001
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This is an old story. It has been realised here for a while that some of this "up to date" intelligence was in fact plagarised from an old student thesis. It doesn't exactly give you much faith in the government or their method's does it?

BTW, it has been reported in a few different media this week that downing street has been in discussion with the head of MI5 over their intelligence. The head of the security service was reassured that the government will be more careful on how it presents intelligence data in the future (it is widely believed that a great amount of spin was applied to the Iraq evidence).

Cheers,

Andy
 

nowareman

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Jun 4, 2003
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I didn't know this was old news. This is the first I heard of it. I was shocked to read that the UK intelligence used a 12 year old report done by a US student downloaded from the internet. Couldn't they find real information to support their claim that Iraq had WMD? What was their real reason for starting the war if the reason they gave wasn't true?
 

Fencer128

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Jun 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: nowareman
I didn't know this was old news. This is the first I heard of it. I was shocked to read that the UK intelligence used a 12 year old report done by a US student downloaded from the internet. Couldn't they find real information to support their claim that Iraq had WMD? What was their real reason for starting the war if the reason they gave wasn't true?

Only part of the report was plagarised. It doesn't give much confidence for the rest of the report though. This was revealed over here only a few days after the report was released. And Tony Blair wonders why people falter when he says "Trust me, we will find the WMD".

Could we trust you on the pre-war intelligence?

Cheers,

Andy
 

nowareman

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Jun 4, 2003
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Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: nowareman
I didn't know this was old news. This is the first I heard of it. I was shocked to read that the UK intelligence used a 12 year old report done by a US student downloaded from the internet. Couldn't they find real information to support their claim that Iraq had WMD? What was their real reason for starting the war if the reason they gave wasn't true?

Only part of the report was plagarised. It doesn't give much confidence for the rest of the report though. This was revealed over here only a few days after the report was released. And Tony Blair wonders why people falter when he says "Trust me, we will find the WMD".

Could we trust you on the pre-war intelligence?

Cheers,

Andy

OK, that explains it. It might be old news in the UK but here in the USA this is the first I heard of it.

We have our own reports that are being looked into now since it seems the main reason given by our president and others in his administration doesn't seem to be panning out.

I agree it is difficult now to believe any of them about finding the "smoking gun." I think it was there during the first Gulf war in 1991 but it was all concocted this time as an excuse to start the war in Iraq. For what purpose? I've read many theories so far and some of them sound plausible. I guess only time will tell. I don't think PM Blair or President Bush should have lied to their countrymen about WMD or should at the very least have qualified their statements. They didn't though. I read statements by both from last autumn and they both said Saddam Hussein had WMD in Iraq, he was making more, and his nuclear program would develop a bomb within a few years. All claims that are false now unless they can come up with the evidence. I don't think that is going to happen from what I have been reading.
 

Fencer128

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Jun 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: LordSegan
Anyone have links to the thesis?

No, but a have a link to the response to the plagarism as given by the original authors.

Mr Boyne, who works for military magazine Jane's Intelligence Review, said
he was shocked his work had been used in the Government's dossier.

He said: "I don't like to think that anything I wrote has been used for an
argument for war. I am concerned because I am against the war."

The other main source was a thesis by post-graduate student, Ibrahim
al-Marashi, the US-born son of Iraqis, who lives in California. His research
was partly based on documents seized in the 1991 Gulf War.

He said: "This is wholesale deception. How can the British public trust the
Government if it is up to these sort of tricks? People will treat any other
information they publish with a lot of scepticism from now on."

Cheers,

Andy
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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They could have at least used a credable source from the internet - like AnandTech Forums.
No speculation at all - pure Gospel !
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: BOBDN
Can THIS be the piece?

The plagarized information was background on the security services of Iraq.




MERIA Journal Our Response
"...
Prime Minister Tony Blair?s office has apologized to Mr. Marashi but not to MERIA Journal for this plagiarism.

The fact is that the report was a good one. The information was correct and highly useful. If I may be permitted a humorous note, perhaps the world and the Middle East would be a better place if more governments used MERIA articles to explain current developments and inform their people.

We are pleased that the high quality of MERIA Journal?s articles has made them so valuable to our readers, who now number almost 20,000 people around the world, including many government officials, as well as diplomats, journalists, scholars, and students. As noted on the masthead of each issue and all our publications, however, we do appreciate being given credit.

The fact is that the articles by Mr. Marashi and our other authors are highly accurate, insightful, original, and extremely timely. This was our goal when we began seven years ago and the many letters we receive from readers tell us that we are in general achieving this objective. We hope these events will inspire more people to read MERIA.
...
"

Now the question is, was the information that was "borrowed" inaccurate in any way?

I have seen no indication that it was.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
They could have at least used a credable source from the internet - like AnandTech Forums.
No speculation at all - pure Gospel !


Perhaps they used this source.


Iraqi Intelligence Agencies

The information appears to be the same.

Now can you prove that the information was false or not relevant to the paper as background information on the security services?
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
They could have at least used a credable source from the internet - like AnandTech Forums.
No speculation at all - pure Gospel !


Perhaps they used this source.


Iraqi Intelligence Agencies

The information appears to be the same.

Now can you prove that the information was false or not relevant to the paper as background information on the security services?

I can prove the information was based on intelligence that was 12 YEARS OLD!

 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
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The point for me is this. The government promised us previously unreleased up-to-the-minute and damning intelligence. Part of the dossier was real old, plagarised and nothing new. The British security services have also recently complained to the government about the "spin" they put on their intelligence. The government has assured them this will not happen again.

I still have no trust in what I've been told because of this.

Andy

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: Fencer128
The point for me is this. The government promised us previously unreleased up-to-the-minute and damning intelligence. Part of the dossier was real old, plagarised and nothing new. The British security services have also recently complained to the government about the "spin" they put on their intelligence. The government has assured them this will not happen again.

I still have no trust in what I've been told because of this.

Andy

Precisely, Andy. Even the intelligence community is up in arms over the spinning of material they gathered. And sometimes the outright lies associated with their work.

Not only you and I but the entire world no longer trusts the words of the Bush and Blair administrations. And it's their own fault.

 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
They could have at least used a credable source from the internet - like AnandTech Forums.
No speculation at all - pure Gospel !


Perhaps they used this source.


Iraqi Intelligence Agencies

The information appears to be the same.

Now can you prove that the information was false or not relevant to the paper as background information on the security services?

I can prove the information was based on intelligence that was 12 YEARS OLD!

The background information on the Iraqi security services, can you prove it was false? Yes or no?

 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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etech -

Looking over that site that you posted - when you get to the FAS Index, there's some really solid stuff.
I looked at the weaponry that I have worked on, and the technical data is right on.
Lots of good data there.
Good link - worth a Bookmark.