Parents Sue Public School Because their Children Didn't Learn!

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
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When students are failed by their school, who is legally responsible?
Is a basic education a constitutional right?

And if it is, can the courts enforce it?

These are the questions at the heart of this case, in which the ACLU of Michigan sued Highland Park schools and the state of Michigan, saying students were not taught basic literacy skills.

The Michigan Court of Appeals says the ACLU cannot sue the state and the school district on behalf of students – even if those students were “abysmally failed.”

... 90% of Highland Park students failed reading, math, social studies and science tests...

In their ruling, the courts said:
So the state has a more supervisory, indirect role in a student’s education, and they’re fine so long as they’re providing schools with the necessary tools – which they are, the state argues, because other schools are doing just fine in the same system.

As for the district itself, Jansen says, there’s no law that expressly allows a student or their family to sue the district for failing to educate its students.


Some questions.
If you send your children to public school and they don't learn, is it the schools fault?

Does the government guarantee that your children will learn? Or does the government just guarantee that your children will be 'educated'?

Agree or disagree with the Court's ruling?

What do you think?

Uno
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,564
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Writing for the majority, Judge Kathleen Jansen says, “while there is little genuine controversy that the district defendants have abysmally failed their pupils, the mechanism to correct this failure is not through the court system…”
IMHO, the court is correct. There are political mechanisms available to the parents.

In cases like this where schools were crumbling, parents have prevailed where able to demonstrate that disparities in funding among districts lead to an inferior educational opportunity for students in some districts relative to others. The outcome was some type of state-level leveling of funding.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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grades.jpg
 
Jan 25, 2011
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Moss: We spent months investigating conditions in the schools and found many, many problems. There is a critical lack of textbooks such that students are only rarely able to take them home, and in many instances cannot take books home at all. This makes it very difficult for children to complete homework, constrains the nature of homework that can be assigned, and requires that valuable classroom time be allotted so that students can do homework. Many textbooks are outdated and in unacceptable condition. Often, students must share them in the class, undermining their ability to learn at their own pace. There is a critical lack of paper and copying machines in the schools. Teachers at Barber and Ford must make their own copies at their own expense which means that what happens in the classroom is invariably affected by a teachers' personal finances and willingness to procure copies on their own.

The conditions that the children learn in are unconscionable. Many classrooms have no or inadequate heat. During winter, students reported having to wear their parkas and gloves in class, impeding their ability to concentrate and learn. Barber and Ford have no counselors or vice principals. This prevents these schools from developing sensitivity to individual needs of students, offering them meaningful academic assistance, working with teachers to develop effective classroom management skills and practices, and permitting principals to fulfill their responsibilities as instructional leaders by having to take on other roles. As a result, classroom time for many core curricular subject areas is not efficiently utilized and students idly spend many hours each week left to their own devices rather than receiving needed instruction and learning assistance.

We have heard reports that one 7th grade class at Barber had over 50 students for an entire semester and students had to sit on the floor or stand at the back of the classroom. The bathrooms are not properly maintained, often smeared with feces, lack toilet paper and paper towels, and are missing stall doors and other fixtures. School buildings are unsecured such that a homeless man was able to live and sleep in the facilities without detection by school officials. Classrooms and hallways are often filthy and damp from leaks. The libraries within these schools are inadequately resourced with books and staff, often closed, and students sometimes prohibited from checking out books.

And for anyone that might want to help individual students, their individual files typically do not include assessments of grade level performance, current and post MEAP assessments, counseling records, attendance records or discipline records. Student files are not readily accessible to parents as mandated by Federal and State law, and school personnel sometimes actively resist disclosing their contents.

http://legalnews.com/oakland/1365485

Yup. Those damned parents.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Looks like a funding problem then. If people want services, time to raise the taxes. Otherwise, no use whining about getting what you pay for.

It will be interesting to see the experiment of cutting educating funding severely in several states over the next decades. North Carolina and Kansas come to mind. I suspect we'll see the same results as above and then there will be a big push to privatize the schools with vouchers. Of course, nothing can go wrong there. We have adapted an idea of cut, cut, cut, cut, cut for decades and this is the result. Throw in declining wages, resulting in even lower taxes and you'll get this in not just classrooms, but all forms of service.

Also, if you don't believe parents aren't doing enough today to help their kids, I don't know what to say to you. Looking at FAR better funded schools in my area, I see exactly what my cartoon shows, as does my wife who works in the school system. As far as many parents are concerned, it's a baby sitting service, nothing more.
 
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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
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In many cases the school should be suing the parent for sending a undisciplined, disruptive child to school.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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In many cases the school should be suing the parent for sending a undisciplined, disruptive child to school.

No, the school should have the ability to easily remove those children. You wouldn't believe what the schools have to put up with today. It's saddening and sickening.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I'm all in favor of a national parent butt-kicking day, but you cannot expect a high quality education unless you are willing to pay for it, which is done through taxes. Low taxes are great, but its time we were honest with ourselves about that - you get what you pay for.

Heh...you've got a 'starve the beast' mentality going on in many instances (not necessarily this one). Much of what goes on in this country in terms of government appropriations and collections is by design....designed to cause failure for specific goals.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
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How many of those students' parents went to the PTA meetings? How many of them spent time at night to go over their kids' homeworks? How many of them taught their kids that schools = learning, NOT to keep it real and acting out. And so on...


So can we sue the parents that do not taken care/taught their kids?


For those of you that said let spend more money. Look up how much are being spent on Washington DC per student. Look up how sucky those students are. Hell, they voted out the Mayor and the School Chancellor when both of them tried to shake things up. Stupid is what stupid does.
 
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unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
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Primary-Spending-Chart.png


Just a data point showing US primary school funding vs funding in other countries.

Uno
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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Primary-Spending-Chart.png


Just a data point showing US primary school funding vs funding in other countries.

Uno

Regardless of that data, all spending is not equal across the country. The article below yours shows that there is severe underfunding in the school system. Regardless of that though, I would tend to think that the parents in those areas just don't give a shit about their kid's education. Like I said, it's just a glorified baby sitting service.

I've listened to stories where schools called parents to tell them that their child is uncontrollable and was told by the parent that they put their time in, now it was the schools time to take care of it (essentially - fuck off).
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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No doubt, the bigger problem is the lack of home owners in the area to fund the school system via property taxes as people have fled the Detroit area in droves.

Most likely 100% this on the funding.

One reason that I would love to see property taxes removed and replaced with something else. Paying rent forever to the government and if you miss one payment, they will sell your property out from under you even if it's paid for (but that's for another thread).
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
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Regardless of that data, all spending is not equal across the country. The article below yours shows that there is severe underfunding in the school system. Regardless of that though, I would tend to think that the parents in those areas just don't give a shit about their kid's education. Like I said, it's just a glorified baby sitting service.

I've listened to stories where schools called parents to tell them that their child is uncontrollable and was told by the parent that they put their time in, now it was the schools time to take care of it (essentially - fuck off).

Don't disagree with you point about parents. Nor do I disagree that there are underfunded schools in the US.

Still when you look at the aggregate educational funding in the US:
Data on the United States, though, raises some questions about the types of investments the U.S. has made. The U.S. is again among the top spenders on education. The data, from 2010, shows that for all levels of education combined and including core and ancillary services, the U.S. spends more per student than any of the other countries surveyed as shown in the chart below.

Looking more closely at what systems spend at each level of education, the U.S. is among the top spenders on primary and secondary education...

From a global perspective, US is among the top nations in terms of spending on education. In spite of that spending, in terms of primary and secondary school educational performance, US is not much of a leader.

Or to put it another way, perhaps the problem isn't the amount of money. Perhaps the problem is the way that the money is being spent...

That is, is the money being spent on educational services? Or is the money being spent warehousing young people?

Uno
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,648
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Like I said, it's a glorified baby sitting service.

That's about all it is in many cases. Parents want/have to both work...let the schools babysit their kids. They don't have the time to get involved in their child's education...oversee homework, attend teacher conferences, don't discipline their kids at all, let alone for poor grades/failing to do homework, yet it's all the teacher's fault. :rolleyes:

Then, add in the kids who are only in the classroom because they're forced to be there...and are willing to disrupt the class with their shenanigans, and it makes learning more difficult for the ones who do want to be there...and the schools' hands are tied. They aren't permitted to expel disruptive kids...and don't have the funding to put them any place else. (like locking them in the school boiler room)

You couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher nowadays. (well...actually, since I'm not child friendly, not ever...but still...) Parents don't want to be accountable for their children's education, don't want to be involved in their children's education...don't give a shit what the children do...as long as they can go to work and not be bothered...until Johnny gets pushed through the system and comes out stupid. Then...OMG! The school failed to teach my child!
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,034
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In many cases the school should be suing the parent for sending a undisciplined, disruptive child to school.

One of the huge problems is that schools are not allowed to put the undisciplined, underperforming, or unwilling students in a separate class.

That's where we get this Common Core bullshit of dumbing everything down.

Make the bottom look smarter by making the top dumber.
 

silicon

Senior member
Nov 27, 2004
886
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No doubt, the bigger problem is the lack of home owners in the area to fund the school system via property taxes as people have fled the Detroit area in droves.

yes the tax payers have fled the failing sectors and what remains is barely able to function as an intelligent person let alone encourage their children to master reading and mathematics. So rather than assume any responsibility they blame the teachers, the system and the funding. This generation of idiots is coming to a town near you soon.
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
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This is a problem on so many levels.

If a school system has a 90% failure rate it needs to be shutdown or all the staff needs to be replaced. Make sure there is a school to send the troublemakers and under achievers. Bus students for an hour if that's what it takes to get them to a school with proper resources.