Parents' machine freezing intermittently

[mikeymikec]

- PS - updates further down the thread -

Something like twice in the last two weeks, though it has happened three times in one day recently. The problem has been around for approximately a month.

They don't use it for much, Skype video chat is probably the highest constant load, otherwise Firefox and Thunderbird.

Like me, they don't like replacing kit without good reason (ie. "machine not working 100% properly, let's get a new one")

Machine spec:

Athlon 64 X2 5400+
MSI K9N Neo-F V3, latest BIOS
4GB (2x2GB DDR2-800)
80GB Seagate SATA
GeForce 6200 PCIE
cheapo 450W PSU
DVDRW
Netgear WG111v3 wireless USB
Philips webcam (USB)
Brother laser printer (USB, mostly switched off)
PS/2 keyboard and mouse I think.

The machine's spec partially dates back several years. I've upgraded the CPU, RAM, and from XP to Vista 64 (I had a spare copy). I've always told my parents to set it to sleep mode (S3) when they're done using it.

The most recent alteration was several months ago, I noticed that the old board (MSI K9N Neo-F V1) had some bad caps, and while it hadn't caused stability problems yet, I managed to get hold of a V3 board which has the newer type of 'solid' caps instead for free, so I took the opportunity. The OS upgrade pre-dates that by at about a year and I did a clean install, wiping the disk to begin with.

I'm pretty sure it's not malware. While my parents are elderly and not au fait with tech in general, they're cautious and haven't had any previous malware problems, and I haven't noticed any signs of any sort of malware (which is something I have to do on a regular basis professionally). For the sake of ruling it out I could try a full scan with Malwarebytes. The machine is running MSE for anti-virus.

My mother says that the freezing once occurred directly after the computer came out of sleep mode, but otherwise it was while she was using it. I've asked her to make a note of what she's doing on the computer in future when it freezes.

Today I ran two passes with memtest86+ 5.01 (success, no errors), and a full disk check (chkdsk /f /v /r), which "found no problems". SMART data for the disk suggests it doesn't have any problems either. I also ran Prime95 for 45 minutes, no problems.

I had planned to swap out the PSU today just to try it, but given how rarely the problem is occurring, and considering that Skype with a video call on my Ph2 X4 uses about 25% CPU (and so must be using 50-60% on theirs), I would have thought that if the PSU was going to crap out, it would be most likely during Skype and especially during Prime95.

I felt that the most likely possibility is the software at this point, so I concentrated on drivers. The video card was running the Vista original GeForce 6200 driver (I had problems with newer drivers when I first installed Vista due to the DVI connection), so I tried installing the latest driver today and tested it thoroughly with regard to the DVI problem which didn't occur.

I also updated the NIC driver (the NIC isn't connected to anything but it was using the original Vista driver again) to the latest version available via Windows Update. I also changed its power management options so that Windows would not try to power it down, nor would it think about WoL stuff.

The wireless driver is the latest version.

The event log shows nothing particularly interesting, "unexpected shutdown" was expected, no other warnings except to do with the PS/2 port service, it sometimes throws warnings like "could not set indicator lights", but these don't occur anywhere near the time when the computer freezes up from what I can see.

If I have further problems, I guess I'll be swapping out the PSU next. Any other suggestions? I have a spare old graphics card as well if need be. The board doesn't have its own graphics.

 

[alzan]

Doesn't sound like malware but I'm with you and run Malwarebytes just to be sure. Did you run Memtest86+ on both sticks at once? I'd run it separately on each stick by themselves just to be on the safe side.

No ideas other than possibly a heat issue; although I agree that a "cheapo" PSU could be the culprit.

 

[Ketchup]

I am guessing the power supply as well mikeymikec, unless they are getting blue screens.

If no blue screns (or just check the hard drive for minidump files) it is probably the power supply.

If they have minudumps that match the dating of the freezes, check the message but it is probably RAM.

I have an old Compaq that is also running an MSI motherboard, and a similar CPU. The MSI board is holding up pretty well, so far (Amethyst M).

 

[mikeymikec]

memtest'd both modules at the same time so far. The cheapo PSU is a good few years old so it would be understandable for it to be that. No BSODs that I'm aware of (or have seen in the logs).

Heat - processor hits about 65C during Prime95 load. Graphics is about 50C idle. HDD is 32C IIRC. I can't remember the system temp reading but if it was unusual I would have remembered it.

 

[mikeymikec]

Update on this thread - it was another three weeks or so until the machine froze again, which makes me think it's unlikely to be the PSU but I've swapped it out today.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Good man, hopefully that was it, keep us posted in a few weeks or so (or sooner, if problems keep cropping up).

 

[ArisVer]

I am wondering if this has anything to do with putting the computer to sleep all the time. Does Vista handles this well? Maybe it needs a reboot from time to time, once a week.

 

[mikeymikec]

It does on my wife's machine. Bear in mind that in sleep mode the computer will reboot at least once a month after Windows updates.

 

[Blain]

Check the MB & PS for bulging or leaking capacitors.

 

[mikeymikec]

There aren't any on the board. I haven't checked the old PSU.

 

[mikeymikec]

Meh, machine has frozen again.

List of remaining possibilities in order:

RAM
Graphics
wireless
Board (hope not)

I assume solid caps typically have two possible states, visibly OK and 'exploded'?

Memtesting each module in turn isn't a problem. I have a spare graphics card. Wireless is fairly trivial as well. I just wish the computer would give me more to go on.

One thing I tried after swapping out the PSU was to run an nvidia demo from the GeForce 6 range, the sailing one. It ran for a few minutes without any problems, which I thought would be more sustained graphics load than my parents are ever likely to put on it.

The RAM was changed more recently than most other components, but I can't remember where along the line I did that (whether it was during or before the problems started). That board is picky with RAM as well.

 

[mikeymikec]

I removed one module yesterday, the machine froze up today.

Thinking about it, I'm finding it a bit hard to believe that it's going to be a RAM problem given that RAM problems are almost by definition 'random' (ie. it might freeze, you might get one of many different BSODs, etc). One thing does appear to be the case though, these freezes are starting to occur more often.

I'll swap over to the other module when I next visit my parents. I guess I'm still going to troubleshoot the problem in the order I described in my previous post though, unless a new symptom pops up.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I dunno, with Vista and that ancient processor, maybe you should just give up and replace it with something like a haswell celeron prebuilt, or something from Dell or Lenovo outlets. I think they would be amazed at how fast any modern big core cpu will feel compared to that system, especially with Vista. Also even after you track down this problem, you have to wonder if other parts are going to start to fail as well.

Or even go with a haswell pentium laptop. Those are available for 300.00 on sale, and they can hook it up to the monitor they have.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I dunno, with Vista and that ancient processor, maybe you should just give up and replace it with something like a haswell celeron prebuilt, or something from Dell or Lenovo outlets. I think they would be amazed at how fast any modern big core cpu will feel compared to that system, especially with Vista. Also even after you track down this problem, you have to wonder if other parts are going to start to fail as well.

Or even go with a haswell pentium laptop. Those are available for 300.00 on sale, and they can hook it up to the monitor they have.

If he upgrades, he needs to go with SSD. Vista may be laggy, but updating, and still using a HDD, isn't going to give any sort of "Wow" effect.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I updated from a core 2 duo with vista 32 bit to an i5 with Win 7, and it was an amazing improvement, much more that I expected in everyday use, to be honest. Neither has an SSD, but the new machine has a 7200 RPM hard drive while the old one was one of those "green" 5400 rpm ones. I dont open and close a lot of programs, and only reboot occasionally. Most of the programs I do use are cached in RAM, so the new machine feels plenty fast to me without an SSD.

 

[mikeymikec]

Fingers crossed, touch wood etc, problem fixed. Three weeks ago, I swapped out the graphics card for a spare I had. No stability issues since.

The nvidia driver for GeForce 7 graphics cards still apparently has problems with DVI though (I ended up putting a spare 8400GS in).

I'll wait a couple more weeks before popping the other memory module back in, just in case, but I think 3 weeks was the maximum length of time between problems (usually once a week).

Interesting that the old graphics card managed nvidia demos perfectly fine, I wonder what was wrong with it.

With regard to the machine's performance, I've told my parents to use sleep mode (S3) rather than shutting it down, and it's fairly nippy for the basic stuff they do on it.