Panera Bread makes non-statement re: guns in their stores

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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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Accidental discharges happen when handling a weapon. A properly holstered firearm does not have an accidental discharge. The only scenario where a CCW would have their weapon unholstered is if they needed to use it. There is simply no other scenario where in a public place a weapon would be revealed.

So your scenario is primarily bunk. That said if someone isn't properly carrying they can have a discharge... Like the woman in Staples with a handgun loose in her purse. That happened and I cringed to think she was that stupid.

For my argument to primarily be bunk you'd either need definitive proof that the president of Panera made that statement for some other reason OR provided proof that accidental shootings basically never happen therefore there is basically no risk vs reward calculation.

You argued that properly handled weapons don't accidently discharge. The you said it makes you cringe when people mishandle their weapons causing an (wait for it) accidental discharge.

So you admit there is a risk of accidental discharge when carrying a weapon in public. Therefore there is a risk to be weighed against the benefit of an armed patron stopping a robbery.

I think I understand now why you don't get that while going to Panera armed is legal, doing it because they asked you not to is a dick move.
 

Rebel_L

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
460
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Sure, no problem.

Say a firearms owner goes out 100 times (shopping whatever). Now statistics say that they will become a victim 10 times out that of 100, for example. However, what if on 20 of those outings, they were targeted by someone who was out to do no good but because that person knew they were carrying a firearm they chose not to engage on 10 of those. Well, they avoided being a victim 10 times. That number isn't recorded anywhere because no event took place. What we do know is that they did become a victim the 10 other times. In this example, a non firearms owner may have been victimized 15 of those 20 times. So they avoided it 5 times. Again, that 5 isn't recorded.

However, the firearm clearly aided the owner in avoiding more confrontations. We just can't nail down this exact number simply because there's no way to prove what didn't happen (proving a negative). But, to ignore that fact biases any conclusion that owning a firearm makes the owner less safe and makes that decision a bit one sided if you go by the victimization rates alone.

When statistics are being used to discuss this situation you are looking at what happens to a large group of people, dividing how often something happens by the number of people you looked at. The experience of different individuals will not all be the same. In the case of of being attacked, if you like in your example you should expect to be attacked 10 out of 100 times while shopping then some people will go shopping 100 times and never be attacked, some will be attacked far more often then 10 times. Say you were flipping a coin, if you flipped a coin 1000 times you should get roughly 500 heads and 500 tails. You have a 50% chance for either result, but it does not mean that it has to go heads,tails,heads,tails all the way to 1000.

For looking at statistics of gun carrying people vs non gun carrying people we consider that if we took 1000 people who carry a gun vs 1000 people who don't. If that is a big enough number then there should be roughly even amounts of people doing things like going shopping (unless you are trying to say that people with guns go shopping more often than people without guns). If the group of 1000 people each went shopping roughly the same amount of times at similar kinds of places then each group should have ran into about the same amount of people looking to attack someone while shopping. If having the gun made more of those potential attackers reconsider attacking that person then overall we should be able to notice a difference between how often a gun owner is attacked vs a non gun owner, so the average rate of being attacked between the two should be different.

Going back to your example, if the average is being attacked 10 out of 100 times, that also relates to a average number of people considering to attack you. In your example you say that person A, the gun owner had 20 people look at attacking him and only 10 attack, you have added another variable, the amount of times a bad guy is around to consider attacking you. If 1000 gun owners go shopping vs 1000 non gun owners why would there be more people looking to attack someone when the gun owners go shopping? So the second person in your example (the one without the gun) must also had 20 people consider attacking him. If the studies say that there is no difference in the average number of you times you are attacked regardless of if you carry a gun or not, then the gun makes no difference in how often those 20 people who considered attacking you did actually attack you.

You can dispute that the studies eskimospy is referring to did not account for some difference between the average gun owner vs the average non gun owner (if for instance gun owners went shopping twice as often than those without guns it would be unfair to compare the two based on how often a day they are attacked instead of based on how often per going shopping they are attacked). You would have to point out something specific though if you wanted to do that. The principles behind averaging are very sound and is a very valuable tool, trying to discredit those would require far more work than you could fit into a post here.
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,970
2
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www.manwhoring.com
They should because they are being very unclear. The company has come out and says that they don't want guns in the stores, but at the same time they say they are not going to let their customer know about their wishes as they will not be posting signs in the stores or having employees talk to customers about it. Its a very mixed message, say one thing, do another, asking them to clarify their position by having some sort of consistent behavior would seem like a reasonable action for anyone who is considering being a customer.

awww they're being unclear. how sad.

as said, they have no reason to be clear.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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This thread is garbage. Every one of these open carry, restaurant ban type threads is crap.

The facts are that licensed CCW holders are the absolute most law abiding group tracked by statistics. They're more law abiding than police officer, doctors, locksmiths and even congressmen. There have been no significant issues since CCW swept across the nation in the late 90s\early 2000s. Blood hasn't run in the streets, and things have gone on as normal.

On the macro level, it doesn't seem like they really have an impact on crime or safety in a significant way. On the micro level, the number of positive anecdotes seem to heavily outweigh the negative ones.

I think it comes down to: If you don't like concealed handguns, don't carry one.
None of that is the point. If a property owner doesn't want you carrying on their property, then you have no right to. Period.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
You don't have to directly capture that figure, that's the whole point. With sufficiently large samples you can say that the difference in means is basically impossible to have happened by chance. That means you've found your answer.

It's all just math.

I guess where we are getting away from each other then is that in matters of preparedness and security, you don't often use average statistics. You look more towards worst case scenarios. You might start with the average because its cheaper to prepare for but most people keep building preparedness/safety towards the worst case, mathematically the upper limit of the trend.

Perhaps that's where we differ. The normal distribution isn't worth much for someone who wants to be prepared for almost everything. Their safety is paramount so average isn't acceptable.

At least I can see what where you are coming from now. Thanks for the productive discussion. It did help clear things up. :thumbsup:
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
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I think I understand now why you don't get that while going to Panera armed is legal, doing it because they asked you not to is a dick move.

I can't begin to comprehend how you can't wrap your head around the statutes in each state that specifically address the need to post appropriate and compliant signage in order to actually make the request known that you don't want concealed weapons in your place of business. My point stands and is completely valid. A response given in an interview via CNBC is not official, not binding and doesn't follow the prescribed process of notification.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,742
16,057
146
I can't begin to comprehend how you can't wrap your head around the statutes in each state that specifically address the need to post appropriate and compliant signage in order to actually make the request known that you don't want concealed weapons in your place of business. My point stands and is completely valid. A response given in an interview via CNBC is not official, not binding and doesn't follow the prescribed process of notification.

I'll try one more time.

You maye carry at Panera.

For it to be illegal for you to carry at Panera they must post signage , pursuant to local laws. They haven't so you may legally carry.

If I haven't made it clear I am agreeing with you that nothing Panera has done legally prevents you from carrying.

Clear?
However,

If you happened to be carrying and you and your friends decided to go to Panera, fine.

If you carried and went to Panera because you weren't aware, fine.

But you specifically said you were going to see about going to Panera and carrying because they asked CCW holders not to.

That is a dick move in my opinion. It's also the opinion of a lot of the folks posting in this thread.

It has absolutely nothing to do with any laws or statutes governing CCW. Nor anything Panera has failed to do. It only has to do with your lack of manners.

It makes it seem like you don't take gun ownership seriously.

Is this the reputation you want to promote here?
 
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MixMasterTang

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2001
3,167
176
106
This thread is garbage. Every one of these open carry, restaurant ban type threads is crap.

The facts are that licensed CCW holders are the absolute most law abiding group tracked by statistics.

This has to be the most ridiculous statement i've every heard. So do you not think anyone in the entire world tracks a group of 4 year olds? I bet they are more law abiding than CCW holders, they have most likely never even had a traffic infraction. And yes I know my example is way out in left field, but it carries as much weight as your extremely dumb statement.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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This has to be the most ridiculous statement i've every heard. So do you not think anyone in the entire world tracks a group of 4 year olds? I bet they are more law abiding than CCW holders, they have most likely never even had a traffic infraction. And yes I know my example is way out in left field, but it carries as much weight as your extremely dumb statement.

And 4 years olds aren't even as mature as 5-year olds. They probably get arrested even more frequently.