Panasonic ADMITS To PLASMA Displays Brightness Levels CHANGING Over Time!

[SlickSnake]

I decided to repost this reply as it's own thread for open debate since it includes a recent news item that might be shocking for plasma owners to openly admit. And since most posters here won't ever see it in the original thread due to its ambiguous title that has nothing to do with HDTVs or plasma versus LCDs called "your opinion".

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2054718

Oh boy, we can't have a thread about HDTVs without the plasma versus LCD debate. People who typically buy plasmas are the same sort of people who would try to talk you into an impractical 2 seater exotic sports car that needs lots of repairs, when you have a whole family to cart around and really needed a reliable 4 door sedan. But the same sort of people who buy sports cars over sedans will also trade them in regularly when they start to need service a lot, or begin to run like crap. Most practical people on a budget can't afford to buy a new HDTV every year or 2 like a $3000 plasma Pioneer Kuro.

Get this recent news flash plasma groupies: the AMAZING DARK BLACKS on plasmas when new, are now suddenly not so amazing, as plasma buyers discover after a few hundred or a thousand hours use they aren't so black anymore or they are now too black. This problem has now been acknowledged by Panasonic, and I'm sure the other plasma makers are also aware of the problem unique to plasmas and simply keeping quiet about it. Mostly the problem is related to the way plasma reacts with the glass causing a dimming effect over time and as the glass gets burned in, or the plasma is burned on the glass, it grows dimmer. Just like a light bulb. This effect cannot be fixed with present technology. And the dimming effect is so gradual, most plasma owners might not even notice it for a year or more.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/04/panasonic-cops-to-rising-black-levels-in-its-plasma-hdtvs-but-q/

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/10/panasonics-response-on-shifting-black-levels-in-plasma-hdtvs/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:weblogsinc/engadget%28Engadget%29

And image retention is still a nagging problem with plasmas, and is especially noticeable if you see one used at a bar or restaurant where they might show a news channel or a sports channel that runs a ticker at the bottom of the screen. That ticker is burned in to the plasma glass, and no amount of plasma recalibration test screens is going to get rid of it, ever. The same principle that burns an image onto your florescent or incandescent light glass leads to plasma image degradation, and there is nothing you can do about it in the long term.

And since plasmas tend to run hotter than LCDs, this extra heat is also transferred throughout the case which can create more heat related problems with the other TV electronics, especially if mounted directly next to a wall or in a cabinet with limited ventilation.

LCDs on the other hand, run cooler and under most circumstances, will maintain the same picture quality as new for years, provided the inferior electronic components don't fail. Which is a nagging problem now with all cheapo electronics lately from Asia, plasmas included, and also includes appliances and your shiny new Toyota. Also on a new 120-240hz LCD, you won't notice any difference in the motion speeds now compared to a plasma. 2 or 3 years ago, this was partially true, but now if it's a quality LCD with 120hz or more, you just won't see the difference.

And when manufactures make the bogus claim your new HDTV DISPLAY will last 60-100k hours it is a partial lie, because under virtually no circumstances will the electronic components that run the display continue to work that long without being replaced countless times. 5 years from now, 75-90% of all plasma and LCD HDTVs made will be sitting in a landfill, mostly due to lack of repair parts. And not because their DISPLAYS stopped working, but because the manufacturers simply stopped supporting them.

And if you go to a website like http://www.AVSFORUM.com you will see people actually admitting to buying a new plasma every year or 2. And some even admit to doing this since plasmas first came out. If the picture on a plasma were so amazing, they wouldn't need to get a new one on a yearly basis. Because as they see the various problems start to develop with their plasmas, many get them repaired then quickly dump them while still under warranty, and simply buy a new one.

On this "elitist technocratic" website, however, you certainly won't see anyone with money burning a hole in their pocket admit to dumping their plasmas because they are now unhappy with them, EVER. They know by you buying a new plasma, like buying the exotic sports car, you are really helping to finance more plasma research and sales and keeping their plasma sports cars alive for a while longer. So that they can still go out and by a new one next year, when their darky darks aren't so darky dark anymore.

 

[Gibson486]

They both have there place in the market. Plasma is still superior now, but the gap is really closing. LIke I said, the cons that plasmas have just happen to be the LCD's selling point, which is what consumers want to see. The whole technical garbage...most consumers do not give a rats ass about.

 

[Slick5150]

Considering I bought a 54" Panasonic S1 in December, I'm not particularly happy about this.

 

[zoiks]

I have a Pioneer plasma. Still the amazing picture when I first got it. I reckon that once the picture does become shitty, I'll switch over to the new technology at that time.

 

[spidey07]

I thought everybody knew this? It's common knowledge but Plasma still has the best picture out there.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Wow that sucks, I'll have to be sure not to buy one of those when I get a TV! Hopefully they will do free repairs/replacements.

 

[vi edit]

LOL @ thread tags.

 

[tboo]

I knew about this & just bought a Panny V10. Im not worried. Ive had a PZ85U for over a year now & the blacks are still great.

 

[JackBurton]

I find it funny people are shocked by this. Samsung and Panasonic cut corners to give the public what they wanted, low price TVs. Pioneer didn't cut corners and tried to offer the best product they could make, and were priced accordingly. The public spoke and said they weren't willing to pay the premium and were happy with "good enough," so you are left with what you have now. Good luck.

FYI, Pioneer plasmas don't experience this issue. Weird huh?

 

[sivart]

So, when my Sam's club clearances the 54" S14 (1080p) down to $850, should I avoid it? (I think that S14 is the Sam's model number for the S1)

 

[Drako]

LOL, even after years, the black level on these Panasonic plasmas is going to be better than any of the current crop of LCDs can produce.

The thread over at AVS forums is kind of an interesting read if you have a day to go through it

 

[JSt0rm]

its always been this way. I think its like 50,000 hours to half brightness now or even longer. I don't watch tv, I only watch movies and it will take forever to get to this point for me. nonissue (for me)

 

[jdjbuffalo]

I blah blah blah blah blah

While I certainly agree that what Panasonic said pisses me off and I think they should fix the issue (it's really a software/firmware setting); what you said is mostly the same crap people have been saying about Plasmas vs. LCDs since the debate started. Most of it is wrong but I'm not going to bother going through it line by line. If someone else has more time on their hands then they can point out all the things wrong with your post.

Disclaimer: I don't currently own a Plasma but I've followed this stuff for years.

 

[kalrith]

If someone else has more time on their hands then they can point out all the things wrong with your post.

While I didn't go through it line by line, here's my response to his original post, which was in a different thread:

SlickSnake,

You've taken a problem with one line of one manufacturer's plasmas and applied it to all vehicles. That would be like saying taking Toyota's acceleration problem and saying, "OMG, don't buy Japanese cars!!!" There's no evidence of this being a problem with any other plasma, so applying it to all plasmas is as valid as applying it to all LCDs, since it's a problem with Panasonic's electronics and not the plasma technology.

News flash!!! Both LCDs and plasmas have a half-life! This means that over time both LCDs and plasmas will have a reduction in max brightness with BOTH of them reaching half life at about 100k hours.

I'll agree with you about plasmas being a problem if they're left on CNET 24/7. So, OP, if you watch absolutely nothing but CNET, then you should get an LCD. If you're like most/all people and don't do that, then you won't have a problem with IR or burn-in on a modern-day plasma (I've seen 0 IR on my 2yo plasma). LCDs aren't immune from burn-in either (although it's called something else on an LCD), so I would venture to say that an LCD TV left on CNET 24/7 for 5 years straight would exhibit similar problems to a plasma. Here's a question: how many of you have experienced burn-in on your CRT TV. A modern-day plasma should handle burn-in BETTER than a CRT, and I've heard of one CRT in my entire life with burn-in, and that was a computer monitor that was left on 24/7 with no screen saver.

I have no idea where you came up with the idea that plasmas and LCDs will automatically break after 5 years. My sister's had her plasma for 8-9 years now, and it's still going strong. And, guess what? She's got 0 burn-in even though her kids will leave a Wii game paused for hours and generally abuse the TV.

Also, you'll always find people who aren't satisfied with what they have as soon as something new and "better" comes along. I put better in quotes, because for the owners of the newest Pioneer plasmas, there's nothing better on the market. There are people who buy a new car every 2 years, spend $300 on a new video card every year, etc. This is a problem with our culture that says we have to have the latest, greatest, newest, shiniest thing out there, even if what we have is just fine for our purposes. I really don't see how any of that fits into this thread though. This isn't ATOT, but your post certainly sounds like it.

 

[SlickSnake]

While I certainly agree that what Panasonic said pisses me off and I think they should fix the issue (it's really a software/firmware setting); what you said is mostly the same crap people have been saying about Plasmas vs. LCDs since the debate started. Most of it is wrong but I'm not going to bother going through it line by line. If someone else has more time on their hands then they can point out all the things wrong with your post.

Disclaimer: I don't currently own a Plasma but I've followed this stuff for years.

Most of it is wrong? LOL. A troll post if there ever was one. Thanks for the meager brain farts anyhow buffalo.:thumbsup:

Don't worry, the plasma junkie below you Kalrith took up the mantle of the leetness of plasmas versus LCDs with more plasma FUD from the darky dark ages.

SlickSnake,

You've taken a problem with one line of one manufacturer's plasmas and applied it to all vehicles. That would be like saying taking Toyota's acceleration problem and saying, "OMG, don't buy Japanese cars!!!" There's no evidence of this being a problem with any other plasma, so applying it to all plasmas is as valid as applying it to all LCDs, since it's a problem with Panasonic's electronics and not the plasma technology.

News flash!!! Both LCDs and plasmas have a half-life! This means that over time both LCDs and plasmas will have a reduction in max brightness with BOTH of them reaching half life at about 100k hours.

I'll agree with you about plasmas being a problem if they're left on CNET 24/7. So, OP, if you watch absolutely nothing but CNET, then you should get an LCD. If you're like most/all people and don't do that, then you won't have a problem with IR or burn-in on a modern-day plasma (I've seen 0 IR on my 2yo plasma). LCDs aren't immune from burn-in either (although it's called something else on an LCD), so I would venture to say that an LCD TV left on CNET 24/7 for 5 years straight would exhibit similar problems to a plasma. Here's a question: how many of you have experienced burn-in on your CRT TV. A modern-day plasma should handle burn-in BETTER than a CRT, and I've heard of one CRT in my entire life with burn-in, and that was a computer monitor that was left on 24/7 with no screen saver.

I have no idea where you came up with the idea that plasmas and LCDs will automatically break after 5 years. My sister's had her plasma for 8-9 years now, and it's still going strong. And, guess what? She's got 0 burn-in even though her kids will leave a Wii game paused for hours and generally abuse the TV.

Also, you'll always find people who aren't satisfied with what they have as soon as something new and "better" comes along. I put better in quotes, because for the owners of the newest Pioneer plasmas, there's nothing better on the market. There are people who buy a new car every 2 years, spend $300 on a new video card every year, etc. This is a problem with our culture that says we have to have the latest, greatest, newest, shiniest thing out there, even if what we have is just fine for our purposes. I really don't see how any of that fits into this thread though. This isn't ATOT, but your post certainly sounds like it.

Don't forget how he knows someone who leaves theirs on all day and night with game machines running and nobody playing them for the last 9 YEARS with no burn in or anything, INCLUDING KIDS ABUSING IT! OMG! and it still works PERFECTLY!!! and blah blah blah. Yea, right. And also I have seen plenty of CRTs with burn in, because the process is shocking similar to what causes plasma burn in. In fact I have seen row after row of burned in CRTs at many businesses before.

BTW, LCDs don't burn out their light source, they use a separate back light, hence the NEW back or side lit LED LCDs, and it's an entirely different chemical process that leads to LCD degradation than causes plasma phosphor dimming and burn in. All the lights in your house get dimmer hour by hour you use them, but you don't notice it until they burn out, do you?

And did I mention he also drives a 1979 Monte Carlo D: and NOT a Toyota?

 

[kalrith]

Most of it is wrong? LOL. A troll post if there ever was one. Thanks for the meager brain farts anyhow buffalo.:thumbsup:

Don't worry, the plasma junkie below you took up the mantle of the leetness of plasmas versus LCDs with more plasma FUD from the darky dark ages. Don't forget how he knows someone who leaves theirs on all day and night with game machines running and nobody playing them for the last 8 years with no burn in or anything, and it still works PERFECTLY and blah blah blah. Yea, right.

And did I mention he also drives a 1979 Monte Carlo D: and NOT a Toyota?

If it's not wrong, then show your source for plasma darks getting lighter on anything other than Panasonic plasmas. Also, show your source for LCDs maintaining their PQ longer than plasmas. Both have similar half-lives, and their PQ will thus "deteriorate" at the same rate (other than the Panasonic-specific problem).

As far as people on avsforum go, I don't see LCD owners using their TVs for 10 years, and plasma owners replacing theirs every 2 years. This is just garbage that you're spewing. There are those who would replace their TVs very often regardless of technology, and there are those who are content to use them for years.

And yes, my sister's plasma has taken abuse and shows absolutely zero burn-in. I know this doesn't fit with your LCD-technology-is-God's-gift-to-mankind-and-plasma-is-of-the-devil thinking, but it's the truth.

I know you'll either come back with zero sources or come back with ones that totally don't back up your claims. You'll likely post something like, "That's exactly what I expected from a plasma fanboy."

Well, your posts are exactly what I expect from an LCD fanboy. If any of what you say is true, it either applies specifically to Panasonic's black-lightening problem (and not non-Panasonic plasmas), or it applies to plasma technology from years ago. It looks like you're the one stuck in the "dark ages."

Edit: And I hope you seriously don't think your posts are fooling any of the regulars on here. Panasonic does have a problem with their blacks lightening, and that's where your OP should've ended. Bringing up LCD-fanboism FUD has no place in an AV forum. Kindly take your un-sourced and un-founded trolling to ATOT. I'm sure you'll fit in a lot better there and might actually get the ignorant and uneducated to believe you

 

[vi edit]

Keep him here. I don't want want him stinking up my forum.

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

SlickSnake, It's ironic that you call other people trolls when you are the one using ad-hominem attacks and generally provocative language ("Thanks for the meager brain farts anyhow buffalo")

Your point that Panasonic has admitted they have some lighting issues has been noted. You can't generalize that attribute to Plasma tvs as a whole. Nor can you make hasty conclusions based on people buying new tvs to mean the old ones have any problems. In the last 2 years, I've replaced my front speakers on my surround sound system 4 times. I didn't do that because the old ones were deteriorating, but because I wanted newer, better speakers. People buy tvs for all sorts of reasons, with a small portion of those being that their old one has issues.

The truth is, any modern tv is "good enough" for most users, in most scenarios. I, and most other consumers, realize that some trade offs have to be made unless we buy the newest, most expensive model. It doesn't mean cheaper tvs or specific tv technologies should never be purchased for any reason.

 

[CubanlB]

Do you own one of these sets snake?

If not, then what do you care?

And honestly, this isn't news. Plasma cells dim over time and the way Panasonic has tried to deal with this is to change the voltage levels to the plasma cells.

And for most consumers (remember most people are going to have their Panasonics in video modes that aren't going to give them the greatest blacks) this will actually be a good thing. (Keeps the set from "becoming too dim" for average consumer, over time)

This is certainly frustrating for users who want the most performance out of their set without calibration.

I hope Panasonic deals with this in some fair way, but compared to what many consumers have had to deal with, mits and toshiba projection sets, this really isn't that big of a deal.

Maybe Panasonic with spring for calibration on all of our sets after a certain period of time! Doubtful though

It would be nice if Panasonic would release the time line for these voltage bumps so people can figure out a work around.

Also, I'm well beyond 1000 hours on my set and I'm still happy with it, if/when the black levels have adjusted, I missed it.

Edit,
Panasonics also have one of the lowest rates of needing to be services and one of the best in warranty service programs in the industry. Maybe we will see in five years, but I have a co-worker who has 4 3 year old Panasonics and not one has ever needed service.

 

[EightySix Four]

I <3 my samsung 58b550

 

[SlickSnake]

If it's not wrong, then show your source for plasma darks getting lighter on anything other than Panasonic plasmas. Also, show your source for LCDs maintaining their PQ longer than plasmas. Both have similar half-lives, and their PQ will thus "deteriorate" at the same rate (other than the Panasonic-specific problem).

As far as people on avsforum go, I don't see LCD owners using their TVs for 10 years, and plasma owners replacing theirs every 2 years. This is just garbage that you're spewing. There are those who would replace their TVs very often regardless of technology, and there are those who are content to use them for years.

And yes, my sister's plasma has taken abuse and shows absolutely zero burn-in. I know this doesn't fit with your LCD-technology-is-God's-gift-to-mankind-and-plasma-is-of-the-devil thinking, but it's the truth.

I know you'll either come back with zero sources or come back with ones that totally don't back up your claims. You'll likely post something like, "That's exactly what I expected from a plasma fanboy."

Well, your posts are exactly what I expect from an LCD fanboy. If any of what you say is true, it either applies specifically to Panasonic's black-lightening problem (and not non-Panasonic plasmas), or it applies to plasma technology from years ago. It looks like you're the one stuck in the "dark ages."

Edit: And I hope you seriously don't think your posts are fooling any of the regulars on here. Panasonic does have a problem with their blacks lightening, and that's where your OP should've ended. Bringing up LCD-fanboism FUD has no place in an AV forum. Kindly take your un-sourced and un-founded trolling to ATOT. I'm sure you'll fit in a lot better there and might actually get the ignorant and uneducated to believe you

What a plasma fanboy. And spoken like a true plasma junkie. I'm now trolling YOU because you spouted off much rambling nonsense about LCDs burning out, and CRTs almost NEVER burning in.

And yet as a laughable defense, you STILL just keep on making up EVEN MORE crap about me acting like I said an LCD will last 10 years and a plasma 2. Sorry, I never said that plasma fanboy, and you are the one spewing worthless garbage around here.

And those posts I claimed about people buying a new plasma every year or 2 are there on AVSforums, if you are not too dumb to search for them awhile before posting more made up crap about me here. I know it's hard with posting A.D.D. and all, but I'm sure you can manage it with medication.

Additionally, my points about reliability were completely valid and were concerning the FACT the HDTV you buy TODAY PROBABLY WON'T LAST YOU 5 YEARS, unlike my old 36 inch CRT which lasted 13 YEARS under heavy use (and counting with no repairs), it's SIMPLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

And by the way, your parents 40 year old fridge will still keep on running while you fix your new one every 8 or 12 months and finally throw it away when spare parts run out after 4 or 5 years, GUARANTEED.

And as far as quoting no sources goes, your a fine one to be spewing that line, you haven't validated a single thing you said. I however ALREADY provided LINKS in the original post. So why not give us this mystical sisters phone number so we can call her and give burnt offerings and worship over her magical 9 year old child abused plasma? (somehow, that sounds really messed up, just saying.)

And no amount of misquoting, personal attacks, wishing to magical plasma elfs or forum sacrifices to the unholy AT GODS is going to make your plasma work any better, or last any longer.

Do you win a lot or debates that way, by making stuff up on the fly and then dumping it off on the other person to prove themselves first after you backed yourself into a corner? Sounds like you need to go hang out in P&N for a while, and tell us all how you REALLY feel about even more meaningless stuff.

I bet you didn't even notice the fact I refused to respond to your meaningless plasma rebuttal in the other thread, which you obviously tried to steer OFF TOPIC with your plasma FUD before implying it was I trying to make the thread like ATOT. The guy asked for OPINIONS, and I GAVE MINE, WITHOUT ATTACKING YOU. If you and your precious plasma felt somehow threatened by my post, in which I attacked nobody in particular, then you need to stand in front of a mirror for a while and figure out why that is. Your laughable response was partly why I posted this thread HERE. But I STILL didn't comment to YOU until you stupidly chose to attack ME YET AGAIN. YOU GOT IT?

"Edit: And I hope you seriously don't think your posts are fooling any of the regulars on here. Bringing up PLASMA-fanboism FUD has no place in an AV forum. Kindly take your un-sourced and un-founded trolling to ATOT. I'm sure you'll fit in a lot better there and might actually get the ignorant and uneducated to believe you "

WOW, just WOW, and I couldn't have said it any better myself. You and those who foolishly misbehave and act like you, are the prime reason there can be no civilized debates about anything on this website, ATOT and P&N included.

 

[sivart]

..

 

[SlickSnake]

SlickSnake, It's ironic that you call other people trolls when you are the one using ad-hominem attacks and generally provocative language ("Thanks for the meager brain farts anyhow buffalo")

Your point that Panasonic has admitted they have some lighting issues has been noted. You can't generalize that attribute to Plasma tvs as a whole. Nor can you make hasty conclusions based on people buying new tvs to mean the old ones have any problems. In the last 2 years, I've replaced my front speakers on my surround sound system 4 times. I didn't do that because the old ones were deteriorating, but because I wanted newer, better speakers. People buy tvs for all sorts of reasons, with a small portion of those being that their old one has issues.

The truth is, any modern tv is "good enough" for most users, in most scenarios. I, and most other consumers, realize that some trade offs have to be made unless we buy the newest, most expensive model. It doesn't mean cheaper tvs or specific tv technologies should never be purchased for any reason.

I consider it a personal attack, when some thread crapping troll lands in a thread with a "blah blah blah" quote and spouts off unsupported nonsense about my post being completely wrong. And then presumptuously presumes someone else can point out all the errors, because he's too lazy to do it himself. If you don't see it that way, that's your prerogative. But the put down was obvious. And I returned the favor.

Otherwise, the only other comments I can make about your statement is if you get a lemon and it breaks in the warranty and you fix it, odds are greater you will want to dump it while it still works. And the plasma problems are part of buying a plasma, so don't know where you are going with that often beaten dead horse, and don't really care.

And if your speakers were so great to start with, and had no problems, you would not have kept trying out better ones, so that statement you made comparing speakers to plasmas is false, by your own admission. Obviously your speakers had problems, or you'd still be on the first set of speakers, and not the 4th. Whether they were repaired or you just didn't like the way they sounded, either way, they still had problems, by your own admission. Same thing would be true for someone buying a new plasma every 1 or 2 years, there's no difference there at all between them and you in that case. So I fail to see where you are going with that weak comparison, as well.

But thanks for the input, never the less.

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

What a plasma fanboy. And spoken like a true plasma junkie. I'm now trolling YOU because you spouted off much rambling nonsense about LCDs burning out, and CRTs almost NEVER burning in.

And yet as a laughable defense, you STILL just keep on making up EVEN MORE crap about me acting like I said an LCD will last 10 years and a plasma 2. Sorry, I never said that plasma fanboy, and you are the one spewing worthless garbage around here.

And those posts I claimed about people buying a new plasma every year or 2 are there on AVSforums, if you are not too dumb to search for them awhile before posting more made up crap about me here. I know it's hard with posting A.D.D. and all, but I'm sure you can manage it with medication.

Additionally, my points about reliability were completely valid and were concerning the FACT the HDTV you buy TODAY PROBABLY WON'T LAST YOU 5 YEARS, unlike my old 36 inch CRT which lasted 13 YEARS under heavy use (and counting with no repairs), it's SIMPLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

And by the way, your parents 40 year old fridge will still keep on running while you fix your new one every 8 or 12 months and finally throw it away when spare parts run out after 4 or 5 years, GUARANTEED.

And as far as quoting no sources goes, your a fine one to be spewing that line, you haven't validated a single thing you said. I however ALREADY provided LINKS in the original post. So why not give us this mystical sisters phone number so we can call her and give burnt offerings and worship over her magical 9 year old child abused plasma? (somehow, that sounds really messed up, just saying.)

And no amount of misquoting, personal attacks, wishing to magical plasma elfs or forum sacrifices to the unholy AT GODS is going to make your plasma work any better, or last any longer.

Do you win a lot or debates that way, by making stuff up on the fly and then dumping it off on the other person to prove themselves first after you backed yourself into a corner? Sounds like you need to go hang out in P&N for a while, and tell us all how you REALLY feel about even more meaningless stuff.

I bet you didn't even notice the fact I refused to respond to your meaningless plasma rebuttal in the other thread, which you obviously tried to steer OFF TOPIC with your plasma FUD before implying it was I trying to make the thread like ATOT. The guy asked for OPINIONS, and I GAVE MINE, WITHOUT ATTACKING YOU. If you and your precious plasma felt somehow threatened by my post, in which I attacked nobody in particular, then you need to stand in front of a mirror for a while and figure out why that is. Your laughable response was partly why I posted this thread HERE. But I STILL didn't comment to YOU until you stupidly chose to attack ME YET AGAIN. YOU GOT IT?

"Edit: And I hope you seriously don't think your posts are fooling any of the regulars on here. Bringing up PLASMA-fanboism FUD has no place in an AV forum. Kindly take your un-sourced and un-founded trolling to ATOT. I'm sure you'll fit in a lot better there and might actually get the ignorant and uneducated to believe you "

WOW, just WOW, and I couldn't have said it any better myself. You and those who foolishly misbehave and act like you, are the prime reason there can be no civilized debates about anything on this website, ATOT and P&N included.

Seriously, Snake, nothing you said there even deserves a response. Come back with facts and we can talk. Stop attacking Kalrith when he is just trying to reason with you, please.

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

I consider it a personal attack, when some thread crapping troll lands in a thread with a "blah blah blah" quote and spouts off unsupported nonsense about my post being completely wrong. And then presumptuously presumes someone else can point out all the errors, because he's too lazy to do it himself. If you don't see it that way, that's your prerogative. But the put down was obvious. And I returned the favor.

Otherwise, the only other comments I can make about your statement is if you get a lemon and it breaks in the warranty and you fix it, odds are greater you will want to dump it while it still works. And the plasma problems are part of buying a plasma, so don't know where you are going with that often beaten dead horse, and don't really care.

And if your speakers were so great to start with, and had no problems, you would not have kept trying out better ones, so that statement you made comparing speakers to plasmas is false, by your own admission. Obviously your speakers had problems, or you'd still be on the first set of speakers, and not the 4th. Whether they were repaired or you just didn't like the way they sounded, either way, they still had problems, by your own admission. Same thing would be true for someone buying a new plasma every 1 or 2 years, there's no difference there at all between them and you in that case. So I fail to see where you are going with that weak comparison, as well.

But thanks for the input, never the less.

My speakers were so great for the price. I started with some $50 speakers and moved up from there. Each of the products I owned were worth owning, and none ever had any problems. I simply upgraded for better sound when I had more money to spend. It didn't mean that the previous speakers had anything wrong at all, simply that there are better products out there. And sure, panasonics may not be the single best television money can buy, so you can of course upgrade to a better tv, but it doesnt mean they are a bad buy for the price.