Palmer Report backfires, Turks PO'd, will take Israel to the Hague

[Nebor]

Nor are innocent civilians being killed as the areas they take shelter in are basically uninhabited and mountainous.

Damn, they should take a page from the Palestinians and keep their military assets surrounded by civilians.

 

[Nebor]

Nope, Israel has not found new allies, Israel is playing on the Cyprus card to piss off Turkey which is about to expire soon. Greece does not want to start a tension politics with Turkey again now that both countries are de-escalating the arms race in the Aegean (1 Army in Greece, 1 Army in Turkey are being disbanded). Greek economy will certainly benefit from hundreds of millions of Euro savings.

USA, so pissed off with Turkey as it is claimed, depends on Turkey to control Syria and Iran and Iran as it was pointed out earlier in the thread, is in accordance with IAEA. European Union on the other hand would rather be on the Palestinian side if their opinions were asked.

While in the past Turkey was an easily controllable and manipulated ally in the Middle East, now is building up its own diplomacy. I am not suprised to see so much anger towards our independence.

I wish Turkey would really show the US who's boss and withdraw from ISAF Afghanistan.

 

[Oric]

Damn, they should take a page from the Palestinians and keep their military assets surrounded by civilians.

Has it not occured to you that Northern Iraq (Kurds) are Turkey's best allies and friends. Where would they take cover among civilians ?

Trying to pull everyone down to Israel Government's level to water down their serious crimes shows how pathetic you must be feeling.

 

[Oric]

I wish Turkey would really show the US who's boss and withdraw from ISAF Afghanistan.

???

 

[Nebor]

???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force

 

[SamurAchzar]

While in the past Turkey was an easily controllable and manipulated ally in the Middle East, now is building up its own diplomacy. I am not suprised to see so much anger towards our independence.

Turkey had very strong commercial and military ties with Israel in the past, from which all sides benefited. Where is the benefit for Turkey in doing what it does right now? Obviously it only peaked with the flotilla, the rift started long before this.
Either Arduan wants to draw closer to the Arabs and thinks the way there is to sacrifice the relations with Israel, or that he thinks that helps him in the polls. Otherwise I see very little reason for acting like he does. This policy is destructive in the long term.

 

[Darwin333]

Maybe JediY will stop yawning when the Hague starts issuing war crimes indictments for Israeli officials.

The Palmer report in no way constitutes a vindication of Israeli actions. Israel is already in deep doo doo over the Goldstone report, and we must ask how much longer the UN and the Hague can try to prevent a final ruling on the legality of the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

But if the UN decides to allow a Palestinian State on 9/20/2011 or later, that too will decide the question, as Israel must then take their shit and git, and retreat to Israeli legitimate 1967 borders. The Overly long 44 year Israeli military occupation of Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan heights lost it last shred of legitimacy at Annapolis.

As for me, its not a yawner in any way, its only a question of how long Israel can delay the inevitable. And how much delay will cost Israel? As some Israeli extremist idiots go off into deeper lala land denial.

But as they say, time will tell.

Out of curiosity, lets say everything you want to happen does in fact happen, what happens if Israel tells the UN to get bent?

They damn sure aren't sending in troops and previous sanctions (at least the ones I have followed) have been a sick joke.....

 

[SamurAchzar]

UN forcing a Palestinian state could be the absolute best thing that would happen to Israel. It would relieve Israel from any humanitarian or economic responsibility towards the Palestinians (they are nearly 100% reliant on Israel today), legitimize military operations in retaliation for terrorism and most importantly, would end the "right of return" concept and once a state is declared, it would also end any so-called legitimacy for Palestinian violence against Jews.

For all the reasons above, the Palestinians will not let this happen. Nethanyahu knows that one way or another, he wins; if a state is forced on him, he could evacuate settlements on that mandate, however if the Palestinians backtrack and not declare a state, the international opinion would turn against them for not taking the opportunity to end the conflict.

Likewise, Abbas is an exactly inverse position: take the country and he will be marked a traitor who given up the collective dream of the great Palestine, built on the smoking ruins of Israel; and he has climbed too high of a ladder to just back down without a good reason. He already hinted he wants a way out of this mess.

I predict there will be a softened call for recognition of the Palestinians, not a state but some kind of upgraded international status. The Palestinians would blame that on the US call for a veto - and back to the usual programming.

 

[tvarad]

Tvarad, these are not merely peaceful Kurdish Separatists, these are PPK fighters that have been involved in numerious raids into Turkey. Nor are innocent civilians being killed as the areas they take shelter in are basically uninhabited and mountainous.

As it is, Turkey has had to deploy a good part of their army just to keep the PPK out of Turkey. And Turkey has been conducting operations like this off and on for many years.

You mean they are not peaceful Kurdish Separatists just like Hamas, Hezbollah, and other two-bit terrorist groups arrayed against Israel? And why should the case of the Kurds not be heard by the world and violence against them protested, just like the Palestinians? After all their lands are being occupied by Syria, Turkey and Iran, aren't they?

 

[tvarad]

I wish Turkey would really show the US who's boss and withdraw from ISAF Afghanistan.

Actually, I wish the U.S. withdraws from Afghanistan post-haste, given that bin Laden has been bagged and putting that country back together again is a Humpty-Dumpty exercise in futility. It would only take a fraction of the money being spent on full scale military ops (not to mention no more loss of lives), to buy off enough support on the ground to ensure that whatever happens, no more attacks are planned on the U.S. from there.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Trying to pull everyone down to Israel Government's level to water down their serious crimes shows how pathetic you must be feeling.

or how pathetic you must feel....

 

[Wreckem]

Tvarad, these are not merely peaceful Kurdish Separatists, these are PPK fighters that have been involved in numerious raids into Turkey. Nor are innocent civilians being killed as the areas they take shelter in are basically uninhabited and mountainous.

As it is, Turkey has had to deploy a good part of their army just to keep the PPK out of Turkey. And Turkey has been conducting operations like this off and on for many years.

If Turkey can indiscriminately kill kurdish separatists. Israel should be able to defend itself from Hamas and other groups.

 

[Sinsear]

I highly doubt that defending the country from subhuman trash qualifies as war crimes.

 

[Lemon law]

UN forcing a Palestinian state could be the absolute best thing that would happen to Israel. It would relieve Israel from any humanitarian or economic responsibility towards the Palestinians (they are nearly 100% reliant on Israel today), legitimize military operations in retaliation for terrorism and most importantly, would end the "right of return" concept and once a state is declared, it would also end any so-called legitimacy for Palestinian violence against Jews.

For all the reasons above, the Palestinians will not let this happen. Nethanyahu knows that one way or another, he wins; if a state is forced on him, he could evacuate settlements on that mandate, however if the Palestinians backtrack and not declare a state, the international opinion would turn against them for not taking the opportunity to end the conflict.

Likewise, Abbas is an exactly inverse position: take the country and he will be marked a traitor who given up the collective dream of the great Palestine, built on the smoking ruins of Israel; and he has climbed too high of a ladder to just back down without a good reason. He already hinted he wants a way out of this mess.

I predict there will be a softened call for recognition of the Palestinians, not a state but some kind of upgraded international status. The Palestinians would blame that on the US call for a veto - and back to the usual programming.

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Sammy, you sure have Israeli rose colored glasses and an ample supply of Mushrooms. A Palestinian State will change the whole calculus of Israel. And no, the right to return as an Issue will not go away. As soon as Palestinians control their own water rights, they can then build their own economy. As Israeli loses all rights to collect Palestinian taxes. Many of the oil and gas finds off shore are in Gaza off shore waters. As land locked countries like Jordan will seek to find Palestinian trade links through the West Bank, Gaza, and Egypt to the Mediterranean sea ports. As Countries like Saudi Arabia have already pledged Billions in Palestinian aid that amounts to petty cash for them.

In short Sammy, a Palestinian State can also become a boon to all of the mid-east, as the entire regional stability can become dependent of joint Arab, Palestinian, and Israeli co-operation.

Which beats the hell out of what we had before in total hostility.

But still Sammy, you are not thinking the issues through properly, as the implications are far broader than you think it is.

 

[Nebor]

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Sammy, you sure have Israeli rose colored glasses.

The ironing is delicious tonight, did you do something different with it?

 

[Lemon law]

The ironing is delicious tonight, did you do something different with it?

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Yes Nebor, its not as wrinkled as it was before.

 

[tvarad]

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Sammy, you sure have Israeli rose colored glasses and an ample supply of Mushrooms. A Palestinian State will change the whole calculus of Israel. And no, the right to return as an Issue will not go away. As soon as Palestinians control their own water rights, they can then build their own economy. As Israeli loses all rights to collect Palestinian taxes. Many of the oil and gas finds off shore are in Gaza off shore waters. As land locked countries like Jordan will seek to find Palestinian trade links through the West Bank, Gaza, and Egypt to the Mediterranean sea ports. As Countries like Saudi Arabia have already pledged Billions in Palestinian aid that amounts to petty cash for them.

In short Sammy, a Palestinian State can also become a boon to all of the mid-east, as the entire regional stability can become dependent of joint Arab, Palestinian, and Israeli co-operation.

Which beats the hell out of what we had before in total hostility.

But still Sammy, you are not thinking the issues through properly, as the implications are far broader than you think it is.

I would love to try the stuff that gives you such amazing imagination, but unfortunately I'm not into substance abuse.

If trade was something that tied the Arabs together, the deserts of the Middle East would have been blooming by now if they had they had wisely used the shiploads of oil dollars the world has been shoveling in their direction for decades now. And yet the Middle East remains a shvthole. Ever since they got out from underneath the colonial yoke, they have been competing to prove how much more murderous each is compared to the other. I give you Syria and Libya as shining examples. Can't see things changing for the better in the near future.

As for Jordan and Saudi Arabia, they can't stand the sight of the Palestinians because they know that any economic power given to them would be used to destabilize their own countries. Unlike you, they're not fools, hence they have hedged their bets very carefully over the years.

But, as has been mentioned, a Palestinian state would actually benefit Israel more than the others because the Palestinians would be forced to take responsibility for their actions for a change. Even Hamas has been civilized to a certain extent because it has to rule the Gaza strip.

 

[Nebor]

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Yes Nebor, its not as wrinkled as it was before.

And do I detect the distinct flavor of corn based starch? :awe:

 

[Chaosblade02]

Nope, Israel has not found new allies, Israel is playing on the Cyprus card to piss off Turkey which is about to expire soon. Greece does not want to start a tension politics with Turkey again now that both countries are de-escalating the arms race in the Aegean (1 Army in Greece, 1 Army in Turkey are being disbanded). Greek economy will certainly benefit from hundreds of millions of Euro savings.

USA, so pissed off with Turkey as it is claimed, depends on Turkey to control Syria and Iran and Iran as it was pointed out earlier in the thread, is in accordance with IAEA. European Union on the other hand would rather be on the Palestinian side if their opinions were asked.

While in the past Turkey was an easily controllable and manipulated ally in the Middle East, now is building up its own diplomacy. I am not suprised to see so much anger towards our independence.

I hope your country throws Israel right under the bus, its a shame America has nothing but a bunch of Zio nuts as elected officials, or we might do the same.

 

[Oric]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force

I did not ask you what ISAF is, I asked you the relevance of your suggestion with the topic we are discussing right now ...

 

[Oric]

Turkey had very strong commercial and military ties with Israel in the past, from which all sides benefited. Where is the benefit for Turkey in doing what it does right now? Obviously it only peaked with the flotilla, the rift started long before this.
Either Arduan wants to draw closer to the Arabs and thinks the way there is to sacrifice the relations with Israel, or that he thinks that helps him in the polls. Otherwise I see very little reason for acting like he does. This policy is destructive in the long term.

It is Israel's choice, not Turkey's ...

 

[Oric]

If Turkey can indiscriminately kill kurdish separatists. Israel should be able to defend itself from Hamas and other groups.

I think Aristotle would be very proud of you

If X can do this, why not Y ?

Great understanding of World politics, Bravo !

 

[Oric]

UN forcing a Palestinian state could be the absolute best thing that would happen to Israel. It would relieve Israel from any humanitarian or economic responsibility towards the Palestinians (they are nearly 100% reliant on Israel today), legitimize military operations in retaliation for terrorism and most importantly, would end the "right of return" concept and once a state is declared, it would also end any so-called legitimacy for Palestinian violence against Jews.

I agree with you with the basics but don't tell me Israel is doing the Palestinians a favor

 

[Lemon law]

For what is worth, Turkey is making good on its threats, Giving the Israel embassy in Turkey its two day notice, to get all senior embassy officials out of the Turkey by Wednesday.

And we also have to admit that its not going to be easy for Turkey to end all trade ties with Israeli based suppliers, but once those suppliers are replaced, the divorce will be final and total.

Bozo Netanyuhu had a year to apologize, and now Israel reaps the consequences.

And maybe interested parties in future quantification can ask what will the new snit cost Turkey and Israel in the end.

When the end answer for Turkey will likely be a little temporary inconvenience, its likely to cost Israel far more.

 

[SamurAchzar]

It is Israel's choice, not Turkey's ...

Israel is a victim of Arduan's domestic and foreign policies, otherwise I find it very hard to explain the deterioration in the relations between the two countries ever since Turkey was rejected from joining the EU. I suspect that had Turkey been admitted to the EU, it would all be peachy right now.

How would you explain the contrasting attitudes towards Israel between this administration and those before it?