Palm/Handspring's co-founder is perfectly healthy and can't get health insurance

[Cerb]

So nurses are paid to provide care for others, meaning they profit off of illness rather than doing it solely out of the good of their heart. Those greedy cunts.

How much, exactly, does each nurse invest in the hospital?

Also, how much work does a nurse do to make people ill?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Here you go with your anecdotal statistics. There are people who don't get their cancers caught soon enough because they don't even go to doctor soon enough due to lack of insurance. If you had to choose between paying for a doctor and tests and feeding your family for a year, you'd be hesitant too.

Right and the people I was talking about were under UHC (single payer system) yet died because it took too long to see a Specialist.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

I'am not going to deny that health care cost are rising, but are they anywhere close to 20% every year?

4 months ago I spent a weekend in the hospital, grand total for 3 days was around $13,000.

Insurance premiums are rising because that's how the make more money than last year, and drive up the price of their stock.
The "cost" of health care is only a portion of the actual cost of health insurance.
Let's break this down:

Corporate taxes go up = Health care cost goes up

Government regulations increased = more workers needed to make sure company complies with regulations, thus health care costs goes up.

Government mandates so that uninsured people can visit an ER and get service and walk out without paying a dime = cost for everyone else goes up to cover those that don't pay.

Federal laws prevent healthcare insurers from competing across state lines, thus limiting the number of people they can cover thus increasing the liability per person. More people paying in equals lower total risk.

Notice a trend with these items? Government is causing health care costs to rise.
Sure the issues with $6 for a asprin need to be addressed, bu those same asprin have been $6 in hosptials since the 80's.

If you look at the cost of the healthcare infrastructure, there is a lot of money there. It's what a 6th of the economy? That's a huge investment by private companies and they have to make a return on those investments, otherwise the quality of healthcare cannot go up as no one will invest in a field that is going to loose money.

 

[sandorski]

So nurses don't profit off of others misery and sickness? I don't know about your circles, but all of the nurses I know get a paycheck.

No, they don't. Quit Failing fool.

 

[theeedude]

Right and the people I was talking about were under UHC (single payer system) yet died because it took too long to see a Specialist.

Right and the people I was talking died because they didn't have insurance to go get screened and referred to a specialist in the first place. Or they saw a specialist and then were dropped by their insurance company and couldn't pay for the treatment.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Right and the people I was talking died because they didn't have insurance to go get screened and referred to a specialist in the first place. Or they saw a specialist and then were dropped by their insurance company and couldn't pay for the treatment.

I guess we'll be fucked no matter what.

 

[BoberFett]

How much, exactly, does each nurse invest in the hospital?

Depends on her schedule, a part time nurse invests maybe 20 hours a week while an on call nurse might invest 60 hours weekly.

Also, how much work does a nurse do to make people ill?

Are you saying that health insurance companies make people sick? The claim is always that evil health insurance companies profit off of others misfortune. So either nurses are doing the same, or both are just doing their job and getting paid for it.

Do you get paid at your job? Would you continue to work if you did not get paid?

 

[BoberFett]

No, they don't. Quit Failing fool.

Wow, so that must be how Canada keeps it's medical costs so low. They don't pay their hospital staff.

 

[Bowfinger]

[ ... ]
Are you saying that health insurance companies make people sick? The claim is always that evil health insurance companies profit off of others misfortune. So either nurses are doing the same, or both are just doing their job and getting paid for it.

I get bored deconstructing the same diversionary arguments over and over again, in one thread after another. Therefore, I'm just going to copy the same thing I posted last time:

I would consider food far more important than health care, what about that?

That's a poor analogy, an (almost literally) apples to ambulances comparison in at least two key ways. First, the financial consequences are opposite ends of the spectrum. Food costs are modest and predictable. Health care costs can be crushing and completely unexpected. I've yet to hear of someone driven to bankruptcy due to an emergency sandwich or a chronic salad.

Second, the business models and profit drivers are opposites. In the food industry, profits and delivery are intertwined. The purchase, the profit, and the delivery are all part of the same package. One buys the food, the profit is a fixed part of the price, and the delivery happens at the time of purchase. Food sellers profits are tied to sales & delivery. Sell more, deliver more, profit more.

In the health insurance business, however, profits are driven greatly by non-delivery. Insurers want to sell more, they collect their profits up front, but then those profits are eroded every time they actually have to deliver their contracted services. Health insurers profit most when they deliver the least. This means they want to sell most to those who need their services least, and they want to deny services whenever they can get away with doing so.

(Before someone starts pointing out exceptions and additional layers of complexity, yes, the above are simplified generalizations. That doesn't change the fundamental differences in their business models.)

What about the companies who make the tools and machines used in the health care industry? The companies that research and develop the drugs? Doctors? Nurses? The guy hammering nails building the new hospital? They are all profiting from health care and play a part in "access" and what is accessible, should they not be allowed to profit either?

Health care providers are really a different subject than health care insurers. The business model for providers is, in general, far more similar to the food industry, i.e., the more they deliver the more they profit. Thus they aren't generally incented to deny services.

Do you get paid at your job? Would you continue to work if you did not get paid?

This is an even more bogus argument. Nobody is suggesting they work for free. The real question, as you well know, is who pays and how we pay.

 

[Bowfinger]

Note that the issue raised was the dramatic increases in health insurance costs, year after year, with his most recent example being a 20% increase.

Insurance premiums are rising because that's how the make more money than last year, and drive up the price of their stock.
The "cost" of health care is only a portion of the actual cost of health insurance.
Let's break this down:

Corporate taxes go up = Health care cost goes up

Really? Which corporate taxes are going up at such astronomical rates, year after year? Please be specific.

Government regulations increased = more workers needed to make sure company complies with regulations, thus health care costs goes up.

Again, please show us specifically which regulations keep getting added to drive double-digit increases, year after year. One time changes, maybe. Every year ... prove it.

Government mandates so that uninsured people can visit an ER and get service and walk out without paying a dime = cost for everyone else goes up to cover those that don't pay.

True to a point (though again not 20% in a year), but that's one of the major selling points for universal coverage. We're already paying for it. Maybe we can reduce costs if we address it proactively instead of forcing the uninsured to wait until their ailment is so bad it requires expensive ER care.

Federal laws prevent healthcare insurers from competing across state lines, thus limiting the number of people they can cover thus increasing the liability per person. More people paying in equals lower total risk.

Ummm, somebody please correct me or add detail as appropriate, but as I understand it, you kind of have this backwards. Insurers don't sell across state lines because of a lack of federal law. More specifically, because the federal position is that insurance products should be regulated at the state level (a position adopted due to insurance company lobbying, i.e., they didn't want federal regulation).

As a result, insurance products are often limited to a specific state because it's the only practical way to meet each state's unique regulations. Is it truly your position that the federal government should intervene and reduce states' rights, regulating insurance at the federal level instead?

Notice a trend with these items? ...

Yes, you have been brainwashed into blaming everything on teh ebil guvmint, whether it has any basis in reality or not.

If you look at the cost of the healthcare infrastructure, there is a lot of money there. It's what a 6th of the economy? That's a huge investment by private companies and they have to make a return on those investments, otherwise the quality of healthcare cannot go up as no one will invest in a field that is going to loose money.

You are conflating health insurance with health care. They are two different things.

 

[BoberFett]

This is an even more bogus argument. Nobody is suggesting they work for free. The real question, as you well know, is who pays and how we pay.

That's all well and good, but the loony left always seems to come down to blaming profit. Remove health insurance corporate profit and you've barely made a dent in the cost of healthcare in the US. As usual, simpletons such as we see in this thread can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[sandorski]

That's all well and good, but the loony left always seems to come down to blaming profit. Remove health insurance corporate profit and you've barely made a dent in the cost of healthcare in the US. As usual, simpletons such as we see in this thread can't see the forest for the trees.

Now now don't be so hard on yourself.

 

[BoberFett]

Now now don't be so hard on yourself.

Apparently they don't pay teachers in Canada either, judging by the output from this particular sample.

 

[Zebo]

My daughter was denied because she takes regular medication for a common teenage issue.

WTF is this? I have one teen, soon to be two... Never heard of a "common teenage issue" needing drugs.

Sounds like she is a typical American when I stumble into friends bathrooms and find 40 pill bottles on the counter. Over-medicated, hypochondriacs costing us trillions.

 

[sandorski]

Apparently they don't pay teachers in Canada either, judging by the output from this particular sample.

You might want to look into Education statistics comparing Nations. :hmm:

 

[Acanthus]

WTF is this? I have one teen, soon to be two... Never heard of a "common teenage issue" needing drugs.

Sounds like she is a typical American when I stumble into friends bathrooms and find 40 pill bottles on the counter. Over-medicated, hypochondriacs costing us trillions.

Immediately i think of acne medication or birth control to reduce menstrual cramps.

 

[manimal]

I get bored deconstructing the same diversionary arguments over and over again, in one thread after another.

Amen!

 

[Cerb]

Depends on her schedule, a part time nurse invests maybe 20 hours a week while an on call nurse might invest 60 hours weekly.

Those are hours. I think it was pretty obvious that by invest, I meant money. If you are not putting money into it, how are you profiting? If you are putting in time, with agreed ration of money for the amount of time worked (or if salaried), you are working for wages. Regardless of philosophical hair-splittingt, our economy is set up so that you are either working for wages, working for shares (or similar incentives), or running your own business (and thus not having the potential security of either prior option). There are outliers, but if you want to not be stuck on welfare, those are the options you have, to get by.

Are you saying that health insurance companies make people sick? The claim is always that evil health insurance companies profit off of others misfortune. So either nurses are doing the same, or both are just doing their job and getting paid for it.

You are the one saying nurses want to keep people sick for their own monetary gain, and invest money to do so (that is the clearest interpretation of profiting from others' illness). I never said any of that.

Health insurance (which does not spread risk, in the way other insurance does) for profit (specifically, profit of 3rd parties, wrt service provided) puts the incentive to make money in a place of far higher priority than providing a quality service. A publicly traded health insurance corporation strengthens that incentive even more. They don't want to keep people sick, but they don't want to provide them good service, either. They need to keep people needing to pay them (or at least thinking that), and also attempt to pay out as little as possible, in the process. If not, the board might get flushed out, and a new one brought in, which will do that.

There is nothing wrong with making a living, even a pretty good one, by providing necessary and/or useful services or goods. There is something wrong with making a living by giving money to uninvolved parties at the cost of providing such services, which is a strong incentive for for-profit insurance companies, which also lack competition needed to be forced to provide at least acceptable service (auto insurance companies are a good example: you can always jump to another insurer with ease).

Do you get paid at your job? Would you continue to work if you did not get paid?

No (yes would be nice, but it's not in my cards, right now), and no. However, I fail to see what that has to do with any of this. Wage earning is not profiting.

 

[Cerb]

That's all well and good, but the loony left always seems to come down to blaming profit. Remove health insurance corporate profit and you've barely made a dent in the cost of healthcare in the US. As usual, simpletons such as we see in this thread can't see the forest for the trees.

No, they blame using the word profit (I've done it myself). Agreeing on the ability for the insurer to make a profit is fine and dandy. However, the insurer should be required to provide quality service for the price, and that is simply not the reality of it, here and now. Profit taking precedence over all else is partly to blame (not entirely, but many other problems can be correlated to it, so it works out pretty well).

 

[sandorski]

No, they blame using the word profit (I've done it myself). Agreeing on the ability for the insurer to make a profit is fine and dandy. However, the insurer should be required to provide quality service for the price, and that is simply not the reality of it, here and now. Profit taking precedence over all else is partly to blame (not entirely, but many other problems can be correlated to it, so it works out pretty well).

No no, you got it all wrong. If denying Life Saving Medical Care makes the Shareholders happy, what's the problem? You a Commie?

:sneaky:

 

[Bowfinger]

That's all well and good, but the loony left always seems to come down to blaming profit. Remove health insurance corporate profit and you've barely made a dent in the cost of healthcare in the US. As usual, simpletons such as we see in this thread can't see the forest for the trees.

True, removing health insurance company profit from our system isn't going to single-handedly fix our problem with skyrocketing health care costs. The problem with for-profit HI is that its model is fundamentally opposed to society's interests. Society's best interests are for health care services to be delivered to those who need them most. The for-profit health insurance industry wants to deliver services to those who need it least.

 

[Bowfinger]

Immediately i think of acne medication or birth control to reduce menstrual cramps.

Allergies are another fairly common issue requiring prescriptions.