"DABANSHEE: You've apparently forgotten about the Holocaust (or are you one of those people that says it never happened?). If you examine Zionism in light of that event, and no other race of people has ever experienced the annihilation of several million of its members in a systematic program, I'd say it's entirely reasonable to feel that the Jews deserve a homeland..."
So are you saying that being a victim gives one the right to go arround victimising others? Well why didn't Trumen do what the Saudi King suggested & parcelled off a bit of Germany so the Jews could have a homeland there, afterall the Palestinians didn't commit the holacaust, the Germans did. Anyway, after the war a bit of Germany was parceled off & given to Poland, to make up for the bit of Poland that Stalin added to Belorusa & the Ukrain, it wouldn't have made much difference if a bit more was parcelled off & given too the Jews, I doubt the Germans would of complained, as that would of been just after news of the holacaust came out..
..."Considering that the history of the region is so muddled over the centuries, you could also argue that the Jews are entitled to the land because they were exiled so long ago and also had a sizeable population there during Roman times (which, coincidentally, is before the formation for Islam -- who is the invader?). Examining the history of the region for the last 60 years is hardly appropriate."
There is not one contempory Jew that could prove that they were descended from the Hebrews of antiquity. Besides already geneticists (& Israeli ones of that) have proven that the people most related to the Hebrews of antiquity are actually the Palestinians. Why is that?
Simple, when the Romans exiled the Jews they only exiled about 50% of them, the other 50% were well & truelly Hellanised in that they took on the Greek language & ways, as that area was part of Alexanders Empire 300 years earlier, it later became a part of the Roman Empire, but the Eastern Roman Empire was Greek speaking too. Well these Hellenised Jews werent exiled & were still living there when the Eastern Roman Empire became known as the Byzantine Empire 500 years later, By that time they were all more or less good Greek Orthadox Christians. The Arabs then invaded, but they were very small in number & breed into the local Palestinian population. Well anyway the Muslems consided Jews & Christians people of the book & they were not forcibly converted to Islam. It actually took arround 500+ years for the area to become majority muslem (Muslems paid less tax in the Caliphate, so that was the incentive to convert). Even when the Crusadors stormed the holly land & laid siege to Tyre (or was it Acre) & executed 40000 infedels (because Saladin was late with the ransom gold) half the infedels were actually Greek Orthadox Christians. Even now (after a 1000 years or more of Islamic rule) 10% of Palestinians are still Greek Orthadox (Dr George Habash of the PFLP is one of those Greek Orthadox Palestinians). The only other groups that are as closely related to the Hebrews of antiquity are the Samaritans (they still exist & live at the foot of Mt Nablus, on the West Bank) & the small groups of Palestinian Jews (Jews descended from Jews who have been living there, even before the idea of Zionism was conceived).
This study (where they used DNA taken from Ist century burial sites in Israel) also show that Sheperdic Jews (Jews from Spain, Nth Africa, the middle East & Turkey) are no different genetically than other people living in the same area. So Spainish Jews are genetically no different than other Spainards, & the same goes with Yemani Jews). As far as Ashkenasi Jews (Jews from France across to Khazakstan, mainly central Europe) are concerned they appear to be descended partly from the Khazak conversionists (arround 850AD the king of the Khazaks who controlled an empire arround the Eastern Ukrain, Southern Russia & Western Khazakstan, converted to Judism, as such all his subjects converted along with him)
So if Israelis really beleive in Zionism they should go back home to Poland, Hungary, Yeman & New York, etc & leave Palestine to the Palestinians, the true Jews.
"If you examine Zionism in light of that event, and no other race of people has ever experienced the annihilation of several million of its members in a systematic program,"
Actually Andrew something like 4+ million Ukrainians died in Stalin's campaign against the Culacks (landed peasentary). Also millions of Cambodians died when Pol Pot tried to turn the place into an agrarian wonderland. Also when Ghengis Khan invaded Persia, his troops killed every man, woman & child of every city he laid seige to (this was in revenge to the Persians killing his emmisaries). Also look at the near genicide of the American Indians. Actually one of the main reasons for the American Revolution (other than British taxes & sedition laws) was to overturn the native title rights the Indians had under English common law. Look at Tasmania where the total genacide of the Tasmania Aboriginies occurred (they were a different race to the Australian Aboriginies), because the British governor classed them as sub-human, so they had no common law rights & a bounty was put on them. Bounty hunters then whenh out & massacred then till every last Tasmanian Aboriginal was dead.
Really what happened to the Jews was not unique in world history (just the way it was done was unique) & it definitly doesnt give them the right to persecute others.
So are you saying that being a victim gives one the right to go arround victimising others? Well why didn't Trumen do what the Saudi King suggested & parcelled off a bit of Germany so the Jews could have a homeland there, afterall the Palestinians didn't commit the holacaust, the Germans did. Anyway, after the war a bit of Germany was parceled off & given to Poland, to make up for the bit of Poland that Stalin added to Belorusa & the Ukrain, it wouldn't have made much difference if a bit more was parcelled off & given too the Jews, I doubt the Germans would of complained, as that would of been just after news of the holacaust came out..
..."Considering that the history of the region is so muddled over the centuries, you could also argue that the Jews are entitled to the land because they were exiled so long ago and also had a sizeable population there during Roman times (which, coincidentally, is before the formation for Islam -- who is the invader?). Examining the history of the region for the last 60 years is hardly appropriate."
There is not one contempory Jew that could prove that they were descended from the Hebrews of antiquity. Besides already geneticists (& Israeli ones of that) have proven that the people most related to the Hebrews of antiquity are actually the Palestinians. Why is that?
Simple, when the Romans exiled the Jews they only exiled about 50% of them, the other 50% were well & truelly Hellanised in that they took on the Greek language & ways, as that area was part of Alexanders Empire 300 years earlier, it later became a part of the Roman Empire, but the Eastern Roman Empire was Greek speaking too. Well these Hellenised Jews werent exiled & were still living there when the Eastern Roman Empire became known as the Byzantine Empire 500 years later, By that time they were all more or less good Greek Orthadox Christians. The Arabs then invaded, but they were very small in number & breed into the local Palestinian population. Well anyway the Muslems consided Jews & Christians people of the book & they were not forcibly converted to Islam. It actually took arround 500+ years for the area to become majority muslem (Muslems paid less tax in the Caliphate, so that was the incentive to convert). Even when the Crusadors stormed the holly land & laid siege to Tyre (or was it Acre) & executed 40000 infedels (because Saladin was late with the ransom gold) half the infedels were actually Greek Orthadox Christians. Even now (after a 1000 years or more of Islamic rule) 10% of Palestinians are still Greek Orthadox (Dr George Habash of the PFLP is one of those Greek Orthadox Palestinians). The only other groups that are as closely related to the Hebrews of antiquity are the Samaritans (they still exist & live at the foot of Mt Nablus, on the West Bank) & the small groups of Palestinian Jews (Jews descended from Jews who have been living there, even before the idea of Zionism was conceived).
This study (where they used DNA taken from Ist century burial sites in Israel) also show that Sheperdic Jews (Jews from Spain, Nth Africa, the middle East & Turkey) are no different genetically than other people living in the same area. So Spainish Jews are genetically no different than other Spainards, & the same goes with Yemani Jews). As far as Ashkenasi Jews (Jews from France across to Khazakstan, mainly central Europe) are concerned they appear to be descended partly from the Khazak conversionists (arround 850AD the king of the Khazaks who controlled an empire arround the Eastern Ukrain, Southern Russia & Western Khazakstan, converted to Judism, as such all his subjects converted along with him)
So if Israelis really beleive in Zionism they should go back home to Poland, Hungary, Yeman & New York, etc & leave Palestine to the Palestinians, the true Jews.
"If you examine Zionism in light of that event, and no other race of people has ever experienced the annihilation of several million of its members in a systematic program,"
Actually Andrew something like 4+ million Ukrainians died in Stalin's campaign against the Culacks (landed peasentary). Also millions of Cambodians died when Pol Pot tried to turn the place into an agrarian wonderland. Also when Ghengis Khan invaded Persia, his troops killed every man, woman & child of every city he laid seige to (this was in revenge to the Persians killing his emmisaries). Also look at the near genicide of the American Indians. Actually one of the main reasons for the American Revolution (other than British taxes & sedition laws) was to overturn the native title rights the Indians had under English common law. Look at Tasmania where the total genacide of the Tasmania Aboriginies occurred (they were a different race to the Australian Aboriginies), because the British governor classed them as sub-human, so they had no common law rights & a bounty was put on them. Bounty hunters then whenh out & massacred then till every last Tasmanian Aboriginal was dead.
Really what happened to the Jews was not unique in world history (just the way it was done was unique) & it definitly doesnt give them the right to persecute others.
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