Palestinians learn about the Holocaust in Israel

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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Perhaps if both sides can stop and try to understand each other, then progress towards peace might eventually happen.

Every baby step forward is just that, another step forward!!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100819/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians_holocaust

By ARON HELLER, Associated Press Writer Aron Heller, Associated Press Writer – Thu Aug 19, 6:07 am ET
JERUSALEM – Growing up in the West Bank, Mujahid Sarsur knew next to nothing about the Holocaust and saw little ground to sympathize with a people he saw as his occupier.

But thanks to an Israeli roommate overseas, the 21-year-old Palestinian student learned about the Nazi murder of 6 million Jews during World War II and discovered a new understanding of his Israeli neighbors.


Now he wants other Arabs to do the same. Sarsur heads one of a handful of Palestinian grass-roots groups seeking knowledge about the Holocaust.

On Wednesday, he led a delegation of 22 students to Israel's official Holocaust memorial, Yad Vashem. The students, fasting for Ramadan, listened closely to their Arabic-speaking guide's explanations, and were left wide-eyed by the gruesome images of the death camps.

Girls in Muslim head scarves turned away in horror at the sight of Jewish corpses being shoveled into pits. They huddled together as they watched film from Auschwitz, where about 1 million Jews were put to death.

"The Holocaust is a huge part of Israeli society. We live so close to them and we need to understand them better if we are ever to live in peace," said Sarsur, a junior at Bard College in New York. "If we change the way we think about the Holocaust, we can create bridges."A

Arab sentiment toward the Holocaust ranges from ignorance about its details to outright denial. Some hold a more complex belief system, acknowledging that the Holocaust did happen, but that they are paying the price by the loss of their land with the creation of the state of Israel after World War II.

Last year, in an incident that got international attention, a Palestinian youth orchestra performed a concert for Holocaust survivors in Israel and caused such uproar among Palestinians that it was shut down. Its conductor was banished and blocked from entering a West Bank refugee camp out of concern for her safety.

Two years ago, Yad Vashem launched an Arabic version of its website to combat Holocaust denial in the Arab world and provide credible historic material to those who seek it. A similar version in Farsi was aimed at Iran, whose president has called the Holocaust a "myth."

Noor Amer, a 15-year-old Palestinian who attends high school in Jordan, said he compares Jewish suffering in the Holocaust to Palestinian suffering in the West Bank and Gaza. While he still rejects Zionism, he said the Yad Vashem visit helped him understand that "the Jews had nowhere else to go" after the Holocaust.

He said Palestinians have trouble seeing their enemies as victims to be sympathized with.

"The conflict is so complicated that people cannot forget it or put it aside," he said. "If we say that the Holocaust happened, if we accept it, then we accept that Israelis are human just like us and I think that here is the twist — we do not want to consider Jews as humans because of all the suffering that we go through we cannot believe that human beings can do such a thing."

Palestinians maintain that Israelis generally have failed to come to grips with their responsibility for the Palestinians' six decades of dispossession and exile, though a new generation of Israeli historians has challenged their country's widely held narrative of blamelessness.

Surveys show that Holocaust denial is common even among the 20 percent of Israeli citizens who are Arab and grew up under the Israeli educational curriculum.


Aumamah Sarsur, 22, an Israeli Arab and cousin of Mujahid Sarsur, said the Yad Vashem visit taught her that Jews were tortured and killed by the Nazis.

"I am not giving them legitimacy to come here and make their own country, but I get their point of view," she said.

Dorit Novak, the director of Yad Vashem's international school for Holocaust studies, called the visit a "blessed initiative" and hoped for continued dialogue to break down the stereotypes on both sides.

"I appreciate their principles, their courage, their curiosity and their willingness to come, listen and learn," she said. "The Arab world is exposed to the Holocaust in a very distorted way. I know this is limited outreach, but I am willing to suffice with something limited in the reality in which we live."
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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There's no way you can learn anything about WWII without hearing about the Holocaust, so I guess Palestinians don't learn about WWII?
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
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There's no way you can learn anything about WWII without hearing about the Holocaust, so I guess Palestinians don't learn about WWII?

Sure you can... just look at the way Japanese students have been taught about World War 2.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
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Im sure the Palestinians will laugh it off as a lie, and say the deaths were really due to Typhus and other diseases. The Palestinian leadership already believes that is the case, they think the Holocaust was made up as a way to lay some claim to Israel.

Lot of loonies over there for sure.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Well first of all, there is no intellectual way to deny the holocaust happened, and that in fact six million or so Jews were systematically rounded up, their property stolen, then tossed into concentration camps, and then systematically and efficiently murdered in a Europe that had suddenly lost all rationality. Its extremely important to understand that historical fact that supposedly civilized human beings can suddenly turn into depraved monsters, and sadly that being monsters lies within us all. The only Holocaust myth is the facts that Jews were not the only groups so treated, as Hitler and his ilk murdered gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally retarded, and other groups in exactly the same manner.

Nor did the deaths of the three main monsters in Hitler, Stalin, and Tojo change anything about the monsters under all of our skins. Because we can look at the killing fields of Cambodia, the disappeared in Argentina and Chile, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and so many other places as human being cheerfully murder each other
to this very day.

But if we want to maybe understand holocaust2, lets look at how more civilized the Jews are. First the newly founded State of Israel rounded up Palestinians, confiscated Palestinian property, then they herded them into concentration camps, but unlike Hitler who just killed his victims next, Israel prefers to keep most of them alive in a sadistic desire to keep torturing Palestinians. Every garden variety Sadists knows there is no more fun to be had after their victims are dead. So Israel has gone Hitler one better, the new more civilized way to be an inhuman monsters. With ninety nine and three quarters percent more enjoyment for Israel.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
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But if we want to maybe understand holocaust2, lets look at how more civilized the Jews are. First the newly founded State of Israel rounded up Palestinians, confiscated Palestinian property, then they herded them into concentration camps, but unlike Hitler who just killed his victims next, Israel prefers to keep most of them alive in a sadistic desire to keep torturing Palestinians. Every garden variety Sadists knows there is no more fun to be had after their victims are dead. So Israel has gone Hitler one better, the new more civilized way to be an inhuman monsters. With ninety nine and three quarters percent more enjoyment for Israel.

I saw Lemon law was the last poster in this thread and thought to myself "I wonder what kind of garbage he will spew this time", because we all know Lemon law is a rabid Israel hater and a self-admitted supporter of Hamas.

I didn't expect such a giant load of horseshit though. Nice job lemon party, you have outdone yourself.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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I die not expect anything but the Nick response of, "because we all know Lemon law is a rabid Israel hater and a self-admitted supporter of Hamas."

To start out Nick, I am not a raging Israeli hater, I don't support Hamas either, because I do not like Israeli or Hamas Behavior.

But I do not expect that distinction to penetrate Nick's head, their is a difference between hating an entire people and disliking an entire entities collective behavior.
Remove the collective mass insanity collective behavior and we can all find reasons to
hope for a better future.

But while I paint a rather one sided and partly unfair picture of Israel, its still incumbent on Nick1985 to logically show I am not correct in any way. And that failure to rebut sadly Nick, makes you the one devoid of any logic. I made a logical argument and all you can muster is an emotional argument. Why should the emotions of Hitler or Tojo be any less valid than your emotions? When those arguments boil down to racial superiority.
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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lol @ lemon law. Israel has done nothing close to resembling the holocaust to Palestinians. Camps don't count.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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lol @ lemon law. Israel has done nothing close to resembling the holocaust to Palestinians. Camps don't count.
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Inhumane concentration camps don't count???????????????????????????????????
Are you nuts???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Maybe you should try it and see how you like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

DesiPower

Lifer
Nov 22, 2008
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Well first of all... *Snip*

Israel Arab conflict is way older than 1948, you cannot possible say that Israel is more ruthless than the Arabs. They, in a way, got their independence FROM Palestine. They were immediately attacked by three Arab nations after their independence.
My point is, if you look at the history, they have been the more unfortunate as compared the to Arabs. They have been tortured, exiled and killed in more numbers and percentage than the Arabs. So you can keep pointing out that Israel is doing wrong thing, BUT, never compare it what they had to go through.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Israel Arab conflict is way older than 1948, you cannot possible say that Israel is more ruthless than the Arabs. They, in a way, got their independence FROM Palestine. They were immediately attacked by three Arab nations after their independence.
My point is, if you look at the history, they have been the more unfortunate as compared the to Arabs. They have been tortured, exiled and killed in more numbers and percentage than the Arabs. So you can keep pointing out that Israel is doing wrong thing, BUT, never compare it what they had to go through.
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Still a bad argument Desi, your argument boils down to Jews are somehow entitled. Because they got raped in Europe its OK for Jews to be the mid-east rapists.

But yes, Desi, you have another valid point, the Arab behavior has been rather despicable too. An undeniable fact also.

But we can't change the past, we must hold both Israel and the surrounding Arabs States up to the lens of world scrutiny and demand better behavior from all parties involved.

Championing one side while demonizing the others is so not working.

But our mutual goal should be an Israeli state with a right to exists and able to live in peace with its neighbors. Given the current Israeli misbehavior behavior that just builds and builds on Arab hatreds, we are all now further from the goal than when it started in 1948. Or before which is more accurate. Lots of Arab and Jewish misbehavior
prior to 1948, and we can hearken back to a pre 1948 time when Jews were the biggest terrorists during the British Palestinian mandate.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
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There's no way you can learn anything about WWII without hearing about the Holocaust, so I guess Palestinians don't learn about WWII?

There's no way you can learn about WWII without hearing about the British Bengal Genocide of 1943, so I guess Americans don't learn about WWII?

So much history, not enough time. The surprising thing is that they don't learn about it since it affects their modern day politics since it led to the creation of Israel. However, I can see others not learning about it and focusing on other issues such as what happened in Asia.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Lets not forget the Turkish Genocide of Armenians even if it predated WW2.

But lets learn the lessons, injustice just breeds more injustice, correcting injustices breeds more tolerance and acceptance on all sides.

And its the latter that we lack. As the world shrinks as technology advances, united we stand, divided we fall.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inhumane concentration camps don't count???????????????????????????????????
Are you nuts???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Maybe you should try it and see how you like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes camps don't count. They are nothing like the camps the Jews were in, so they don't even come close to counting. That's like saying what we did to the Japanese is comparable to the holocaust, it's not even in the same league. Camps are shitty, that doesn't make it holocaust2. When Israel starts up the gas chambers, makes the Palestinians wear a big purple P pinned to their chest, and have them do death marches you can start calling it holocaust2.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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Inhumane concentration camps don't count???????????????????????????????????
Are you nuts?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

Maybe you should try it and see how you like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

maybe you should chill and not make idiotic remarks. What the Jews went through back during ww2 and what the palestinians are going through are not even closely tied together.

As was said by bffd -- Yes camps don't count. They are nothing like the camps the Jews were in, so they don't even come close to counting. That's like saying what we did to the Japanese is comparable to the holocaust, it's not even in the same league. Camps are shitty, that doesn't make it holocaust2. When Israel starts up the gas chambers, makes the Palestinians wear a big purple P pinned to their chest, and have them do death marches you can start calling it holocaust2.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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I saw a report recently - but can't remember the source - that a survey of the US military in WWII had 86 percent answer 'yes' to "The Jews have no redeeming qualities".

This is an example of how history gets distorted as people think of an American horrified by the Holocaust. They mainly wanted revenge for Pearl Harbor.

Which shows FDR's talent for better at worse, if evidence is right he pushed for an attack to motivate public support; before that the US was anti-war for years.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Yes camps don't count. They are nothing like the camps the Jews were in, so they don't even come close to counting. That's like saying what we did to the Japanese is comparable to the holocaust, it's not even in the same league. Camps are shitty, that doesn't make it holocaust2. When Israel starts up the gas chambers, makes the Palestinians wear a big purple P pinned to their chest, and have them do death marches you can start calling it holocaust2.
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What a damn fool argument bfdd. No one rational denies that the Jews were raped by the collective mass insanity of Europe, and concentration camps were an integral to that process, but why should it excuse doing it to Palestinians today?

Herding people into concentration camps on the basis of past ethnic and religious heritage is part of the definition of a holocaust.

It was inhumane when Hitler did it to the Jews and equally inhumane when Jews do it to Palestinians.

Neither act justifies the other. Two or more wrongs do not make a single right. Learn it and live it.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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No you're wrong Lemon Law, sorry. They are not even close to the same. Only you and other morons who think like you would equate the two. No one is going to say camps aren't shitty, they are and it sucks that they're still around, but that does NOT MAKE IT EQUATABLE TO THE HOLOCAUST. Where are the death marches? Where are the gas chambers? Are Israeli soldiers making shoes out of Palestinian skin? Do they get food? Have you seen any pictures of Palestinians in camps that look like this?
holocaust-remnants2.GIF



Oh you haven't seen anything even close to that come from the Israel/Palestine conflict? There's only camps? Shut the fuck up Lemon Law, you're a goddamn piece of shit for comparing the two.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
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No you're wrong Lemon Law, sorry. They are not even close to the same. Only you and other morons who think like you would equate the two. No one is going to say camps aren't shitty, they are and it sucks that they're still around, but that does NOT MAKE IT EQUATABLE TO THE HOLOCAUST. Where are the death marches? Where are the gas chambers? Are Israeli soldiers making shoes out of Palestinian skin? Do they get food? Have you seen any pictures of Palestinians in camps that look like this?
holocaust-remnants2.GIF



Oh you haven't seen anything even close to that come from the Israel/Palestine conflict? There's only camps? Shut the fuck up Lemon Law, you're a goddamn piece of shit for comparing the two.

this
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
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What a damn fool argument bfdd. No one rational denies that the Jews were raped by the collective mass insanity of Europe, and concentration camps were an integral to that process, but why should it excuse doing it to Palestinians today?

Herding people into concentration camps on the basis of past ethnic and religious heritage is part of the definition of a holocaust.

It was inhumane when Hitler did it to the Jews and equally inhumane when Jews do it to Palestinians.

Neither act justifies the other. Two or more wrongs do not make a single right. Learn it and live it.

That is just factually untrue.

Holocaust has two definitions:

a holocaust -- lots of death, often by fire ... "nuclear holocaust" is the best example I can think of.

holocaust: mass slaughter; genocide. When capitalized, it refers to the 12 million people murdered by Germany between 1941-1945.

A holocaust doesn't simply mean rounding people up... it is the systematic murder of people based on religion, race, or another defining characteristic.
 
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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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What a damn fool argument bfdd. No one rational denies that the Jews were raped by the collective mass insanity of Europe, and concentration camps were an integral to that process, but why should it excuse doing it to Palestinians today?

Herding people into concentration camps on the basis of past ethnic and religious heritage is part of the definition of a holocaust.

It was inhumane when Hitler did it to the Jews and equally inhumane when Jews do it to Palestinians.

Neither act justifies the other. Two or more wrongs do not make a single right. Learn it and live it.

No one is excusing anything, especially not your attempt to compare two things which are not even remotely the same. If you want to talk about wrongs to the Palestinians, then go ahead and talk about them. You need not prusue a poorly constructed analogy to do so, and one which is calculated to be inflammatory to Jews, as this one clearly is.

- wolf
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
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No one is excusing anything, especially not your attempt to compare two things which are not even remotely the same. If you want to talk about wrongs to the Palestinians, then go ahead and talk about them. You need not prusue a poorly constructed analogy to do so, and one which is calculated to be inflammatory to Jews, as this one clearly is.

- wolf

and this