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Palestinians criticize Hamas Rulers.....

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Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,781
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I think a three state solution or Egypt or Israel annexing Gaza with the people also having the option of becoming Palestinian citizens (whenever the West Bank becomes a country) is more realistic.
annexing Gaza - won't happen because Israel already spent a lot of resources evacuating gaza and dealing with Hamas, plus the entire universe will scream "genocide".

3 state solution - that would mean giving a terrorist organization a reward for committing war crimes in the form of a state. plus, that's not what Hamas is aiming for, they want a one state solution - sans Jews.

Israel was already willing to negotiate pulling out of the C territories when Ehud Olmert was PM (2007-2010), 2 wars with Hamas later - and that's not even on the table. they'll have to wait out Netanyahu's stint as PM and hope the next Israeli parliament is more center/leftist.

Egypt right now can't be bothered with anything Palestinian-y. they have their own problems.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
13,855
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...and some are convinced that the minute Palestine is made a country they'll declare war on Israel and pick up where the war of 1948 left off in an attempt to get the rest of the region back.
This seems like a reasonable assumption.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
8
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annexing Gaza - won't happen because Israel already spent a lot of resources evacuating gaza and dealing with Hamas, plus the entire universe will scream "genocide".
They're screaming that anyway. I'm not sure if that's what they were screaming with Golan (not saying that the world was exactly okay with Israeli's annexation or anything) but that situation seems a lot better than perpetuating what's in Gaza. I think a lot of Gazans would ultimately prefer this (and some would even prefer it now)

3 state solution - that would mean giving a terrorist organization a reward for committing war crimes in the form of a state. plus, that's not what Hamas is aiming for, they want a one state solution - sans Jews.
I'm thinking more of a situation after Hamas is removed from power somehow.

Israel was already willing to negotiate pulling out of the C territories when Ehud Olmert was PM (2007-2010), 2 wars with Hamas later - and that's not even on the table. they'll have to wait out Netanyahu's stint as PM and hope the next Israeli parliament is more center/leftist.
This is exactly why I think there needs to be a three state mentality, because actions in Gaza are constantly complicating the situation in the West Bank and vice-versa, when they're geographically, politically, and probably rather culturally separated.

This goes for both sides of the conflict. Gaza shouldn't be launching rockets on behalf of people in the West Bank. Israel shouldn't be shutting down West Bank negotiations because Gaza fires rockets.

The negotiations situation is ridiculously complex without needing both Gaza and the West Bank to fall together as part of the same package, and any ensuing state afterwards is going to be a mess.

Egypt right now can't be bothered with anything Palestinian-y. they have their own problems.
Maybe, but there's also been a lot of mounting opposition against Hamas, and they are actively blockading them. There's some speculation that one of Hamas's goals in firing at Israel is to create negotiations that involve Egypt removing their blockade, which from an arms smuggling point of view is more valuable than the Israeli one or the coast siege. Eventually Hamas may decide to start firing a significant number of rockets at Sinai, at which point Egypt will feel more bothered by Palestinians.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,659
3,138
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This is exactly why I think there needs to be a three state mentality, because actions in Gaza are constantly complicating the situation in the West Bank and vice-versa, when they're geographically, politically, and probably rather culturally separated.

This goes for both sides of the conflict. Gaza shouldn't be launching rockets on behalf of people in the West Bank. Israel shouldn't be shutting down West Bank negotiations because Gaza fires rockets.

The negotiations situation is ridiculously complex without needing both Gaza and the West Bank to fall together as part of the same package, and any ensuing state afterwards is going to be a mess.
I admire you thinking out of the box.....but a 3 state solution will never happen because Hamas doesn`t want a state of their own...all they want to do is make life miserable for the Israelis....

Now I am very sure if Hamas was out of the picture as in not representing the Palestinian people that very quickly there would be a 2 state solution
.
Maybe, but there's also been a lot of mounting opposition against Hamas, and they are actively blockading them. There's some speculation that one of Hamas's goals in firing at Israel is to create negotiations that involve Egypt removing their blockade, which from an arms smuggling point of view is more valuable than the Israeli one or the coast siege. Eventually Hamas may decide to start firing a significant number of rockets at Sinai, at which point Egypt will feel more bothered by Palestinians.
Actually Egypt and Israel instituted their blockades against Hamas. for the very same reasons.....not necessarily the Palestinian people...even though they are collateral damage in this whole blockade thing by Hamas representing them....Hamas has already on occasion killed Egyptian soldiers...most recently I believe Hamas attacked a Egyptian border crossing killing 13 soldiers....
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,659
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Extreme right wingers don't want a one state solution because annexation means allowing citizenship. If that happens they fear the resulting Palestinian majority will allow millions of other Palestinians right of return making the Jewish population a minority and allowing Islamic law to dominate. And that it'll result in all of the big business and scholars leaving. So when they don't want it it's hardly because they think it's out of line on Israel's part. Contrast with Ilan Pappe who does want it.<-- there will not be a one state solution;that is very true!! Plus unlike the United States Israel is not a melting pot of diverse cultures......Israel does not want your tired a weary.....

A lot of Israelis also don't want a two state solution since it probably means giving up Israeli land, and some are convinced that the minute Palestine is made a country they'll declare war on Israel and pick up where the war of 1948 left off in an attempt to get the rest of the region back. I'm not sure what these people want for the long term, I guess some just want to maintain the status quo with the people in the territories not having any real representation by anyone, and eventually make all of area C Israeli-only (and maybe move settlers into area B)<--- actually quite a few Israeli`s want and desire a 2 state solution, but for that to happen Hamas needs to do 1 of 2 thing....either bow out and cease fire and stop representing the Palestinian people or they need to devote themselves 100% to building up the land and structures and infrastructure of the Palestinian people....

I personally think a two state solution is unrealistic, trying to unify Gaza and the West Bank is a really messy situation with a bunch of complications. I think a three state solution or Egypt or Israel annexing Gaza with the people also having the option of becoming Palestinian citizens (whenever the West Bank becomes a country) is more realistic.
That for certain is a very perplexing problem with a very complicated solution!
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
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As far as popular support for a two-state solution goes, I don't really know how many are against it as a percentage (although I do know that many want it). I can really only speak for people like my mother (American citizen who emigrated from Israel, holds dual citizenship) who doesn't like the 2 state solution. She was born right after the war of 1948 and was there for the six-day war, it's possible that she has more war anxiety than the younger generation.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,659
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As far as popular support for a two-state solution goes, I don't really know how many are against it as a percentage (although I do know that many want it). I can really only speak for people like my mother (American citizen who emigrated from Israel, holds dual citizenship) who doesn't like the 2 state solution. She was born right after the war of 1948 and was there for the six-day war, it's possible that she has more war anxiety than the younger generation.
I also find that to be the case among older Jews who immigrated. Both my parents feel the same as does your mother!
Among the younger generations I think they believe a 2 state solution will put a stop to all this bombing and war and allow the Palestinian people to build themselves a state......I think everybody is just plain tired of all the fighting!!
 
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DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,391
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Hmmmm, your argument smells of desperation.


You really think that the people living in the Palestinian territories. Whos parents, grandparents etc were born there. Have no claim on that land?

And if they don't and all that land is Israels then doesn't that make everyone living there, who was born there, Israeli? With full Israeli citizenship and the right to be treated equally under Israeli law?
How naive are you to think that nations possess objective existence?
This is what the world looks like:


A nation is not lines on a map, it is a group of people who agree to live under a common set of laws and to act in the common defense. The jurisdiction of a people doesn't exist beyond what they can project. Lines on a map just signify the extent of claims of jurisdiction, they don't create that power or somehow imbue it into the land. The land is mute.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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How naive are you to think that nations possess objective existence?
This is what the world looks like:


A nation is not lines on a map, it is a group of people who agree to live under a common set of laws and to act in the common defense. The jurisdiction of a people doesn't exist beyond what they can project. Lines on a map just signify the extent of claims of jurisdiction, they don't create that power or somehow imbue it into the land. The land is mute.
Are you really pulling a "borders don't really exist" argument about an issue which is mostly about the control of borders and territory? Because you'll make yourself look a bit vacuous there.

Or are you pulling the "might makes right" argument? Because that one would legitimise Hamas' acts of violence in trying to control it's borders.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,659
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Or are you pulling the "might makes right" argument? Because that one would legitimise Hamas' acts of violence in trying to control it's borders.
Now that is funny...you think the Palestinians/Hamas has any defined borders...as in a state of their own???

I don`t see Hamas defending anything.....I see Hamas being the aggressor and lobbing missiles at Israel........
 

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