"Palestinian doctor's three daughters killed on live TV "

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: brownzilla786

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Zebo, the dark force of denial in you is strong, no one is denying the Israelis have some right to be proud, but when they build their State on injustice towards others, outright thievery, and denying others self determination, its still a hallow sham now only justified by might makes right.

Right now, when Israel bases its existence on anything that is good for 300 million Arabs is bad for Israel, its not hard to see where that leads in the longer sweep of time. Right now the USA is the only thing that props Israel up, world wide support of Israel is slipping because of its clueless actions and violence, and Israel military hegemony is now the major obstacle to a just mid-east peace.

But a good part of your Israeli over achievement is based on a US subsidy of some $20,000 per Israeli citizen. If nothing else, current US economic woes makes that US policy unsustainable.

And after that Israel is going to have to stand by itself with the hatreds it has earned. Self esteem and false pride does not beat reality.

I'm not even going to go there. So much history and interpretations of that history.

I try to find fault with Israeli but I can't. You find none in Palestine Arabs and think Israeli are kosher nazis.

So where do we go from here?

That's actually pretty scary.

Actually it's not. Actually.

 

[runestone]

War really is hell, in case you did not know.
One wonders what the response would have been if the current level of media coverage existed during WW2?
Would we, as Americans, have stopped fighting when we knew how many hundreds of thousands of civilians were being killed in bombing raids?
I wish there were easy answers to all the problems. Ridding the world of fanatical radical Islamists seems like a first step; there is no nice way of doing it.
My prayers are with the innocents.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: runestone
War really is hell, in case you did not know.
One wonders what the response would have been if the current level of media coverage existed during WW2?
Would we, as Americans, have stopped fighting when we knew how many hundreds of thousands of civilians were being killed in bombing raids?
I wish there were easy answers to all the problems. Ridding the world of fanatical radical Islamists seems like a first step; there is no nice way of doing it.
My prayers are with the innocents.

People understood what was necessary to win back then.

 

[Lemon law]

It least Zebo asks the right question, " So where do we go from here?"

How about some justice based Israeli assimilation of the Palestinian people, reparations, power sharing, in short the original ideals of the 1948 formation of the State of Israel. The Palestinians are also a sematic people.

The problem is and remains, an Israeli theocratic State, based on apartheid, separate but not in anyway equal. In the grand scheme of things, experience teaches us that such an apartheid states always goes over like a lead balloon while being a disaster waiting to implode. In the South African example, bloodless integration occurred, but in most cases such states end up by being butchered by the majority they oppress. The Zebo point of superior Israeli education is well taken, but both Palestinian and Israeli children are equally educable, combine Israelis and Palestinians under an equal right doctrine, and Israel can win acceptance in the mid-east, even though its no longer the solely Jewish State it was never intended to be. The USA was founded on the principle of separation from church and State, why should we wish the same for Israel when we rail against an Iranian theocratic State and a Taliban dominated State. The land of Israel, holy to three religions can be shared, it can't be pigged by only one group, if nothing else, that is the one lesson of history.

Go ahead, call me a wild eyed idealist for advocating that, when existing hatreds are so deep already, but all alternatives seem more grim.

 

[ZzZGuy]

If Israeli soldiers did in fact come under sniper fire from the doctors house, and did not see or have reason to believe children where in the house then the response was appropriate. The blame for the resulting deaths would fall on hamas shoulders for knowingly placing civilians in harms way (if you disagree please explain in a manner that can be applied to say the USA if they used human shields like hamas)

If there was no sniper the person who ordered the bombing of the house should be court marshaled (or their equivalent).

If the soldiers knew (eg, saw them) children were in the house and where not under in immediate fear for their lives beyond the sniper first shot (eg, if the sniper was supporting advancing hamas fighters then I don't see another choice except for the soldiers let themselves be killed) then whoever ordered the house to be bombed should be court marshaled.

 

[Lemon law]

Theflyingpig makes an interesting point by saying, "People understood what was necessary to win back then." Maybe the better organized Israelis can say they won, but has it bought them peace, acceptance, or any long term stability when 300 million of their neighbors want them evicted from the neighborhood ASAP.

Tell me all about how that is winning yet. When winning is all about being an accepted and contributing part of the neighborhood.

Exactly what Israel is preventing.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: runestone
War really is hell, in case you did not know.
One wonders what the response would have been if the current level of media coverage existed during WW2?
Would we, as Americans, have stopped fighting when we knew how many hundreds of thousands of civilians were being killed in bombing raids?
I wish there were easy answers to all the problems. Ridding the world of fanatical radical Islamists seems like a first step; there is no nice way of doing it.
My prayers are with the innocents.

So there is a difference between fanatical radical Islamists and fanatical radical Zionist Jews?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Duwelon
The Bible predicts that one day the whole world will turn their back against Israel.

It does, but the Israel the prophecy refers to has little in common with the state of Israel we have now. You've been doing some rather selective reading if you think you see the end times nearing here. Granted, people have been doing as much since shortly after Jesus, but I suppose people see what they want to see.

Originally posted by: Duwelon
They will have nobody but themselves to defend themselves from capable, hateful, motivated murderers like extremists Muslims.

Do you not realize Israel has the military might to take on the whole region single handedly, extremists Muslims and all? They have done it a few times now, and have only gotten stronger since.

However, care to see what is driving Islamic extremism? Check out how Israel's been keeping millions of Arabs caged up in Palestine while colonizing the land out from under them:

http://video.google.com/videop...d=-2451908450811690589

That is the ongoing motivation behind the rockets, and it something we need to get Israel to put an end to. For the sake of both Israelis and Palestinians, and rest of the world.

 

[runestone]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: runestone
War really is hell, in case you did not know.
One wonders what the response would have been if the current level of media coverage existed during WW2?
Would we, as Americans, have stopped fighting when we knew how many hundreds of thousands of civilians were being killed in bombing raids?
I wish there were easy answers to all the problems. Ridding the world of fanatical radical Islamists seems like a first step; there is no nice way of doing it.
My prayers are with the innocents.

So there is a difference between fanatical radical Islamists and fanatical radical Zionist Jews?

GrGr, I would say little, if any, in a general sense.
I think it must be pointed out that the government and the vast majority of Israel do not fall under the definition of fanatical, unlike many of their opponents in that region.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The problem is and remains, an Israeli theocratic State...

There isn't anything theocratic about Israel, the majority of the Jews there aren't even religious, let alone their government. Israel is an ethnic-nationalist democracy, with the ethnic-nationalism coming before the democracy in various ways. There are even around a million Palestinians with with Israeli citizenship left over after the others were driven out to insure a strong ethnically-Jewish majority.

However, The apartheid part is over in Palestine, which Israel holds with overwhelming military force while it colonizes the land out from under the people there, denying them statehood or citizenship in Israel, because the former would mean Israel couldn't have the land and the latter would mean Israel would no longer have a strong Jewish demographic majority. That "demographic issue" is also why Israeli militias and terrorists drove out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians back in 1948 before declaring statehood, and drove others in a few more waves over the years.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: runestone
I think it must be pointed out that the government and the vast majority of Israel do not fall under the definition of fanatical, unlike many of their opponents in that region.

Sure, most of the government and most of Israelis aren't fanatical, but they let their fantics go run loose in Palestine to steal land and attack Palestinians: For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH5JOtFt80E

 

[Mani]

It absolutely sickens me to my stomach that my tax dollars are paying for this.

 

[kylebisme]

It sickens me even more that even though Al Queda cites Israel's conquest over Palestine as one of the primary reasons for attacking us, Bush just runs off and invades Iraq while letting this madness continue. That comes up to a lot tax dollars that could have been put to much better use, yet instead Cheney's Haliburton buddies and a bunch of other greedy heathens are getting fat off all this insanity, while our economy tanks.

 

[BigJelly]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: Zebo
Blame lays squarely on Hamas.

If I were doing a 'drive by' on your house with my child in the back seat and you shot back killing him, is it your fault or mine?

that was the most pathetic oversimplification i think i've ever seen

its nice how you to try take the scenario and put it in a bubble where none of the past has occurred

When Hamas can't kill Jews, it's perfectly happy to heard Palestinian civilians into the line of fire to gain Western sympathy as the headline-greedy media cheer them on.. Sorry that is just evil and wrong.

QFT

When palestinian civilians die, hamas wins. It's call propaganda boys and girls. Simpletons jump on the anti-Isreal bandwagon and ignore the true blood is on Palestinian hands.

The REAL story that's being ignored is the palestians are responsible for civilian casualties and should be charged with the war crimes like these. This is what happens when you use civilians has human shields.

 

[ZzZGuy]

@TheSnowman

Could you post those links again to the references to your claim the jews drove out the palis prior to 1948. Do you also claim Israel drove out more palis in the second arab/Israeli war in 1973(or was it 72?) and if so links for that as well please. I'm tired today and not spending 2 hours digging through posts (epically the Israel/gaza one), would also be useful for others following this post.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: BigJelly

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: Zebo
Blame lays squarely on Hamas.

If I were doing a 'drive by' on your house with my child in the back seat and you shot back killing him, is it your fault or mine?

that was the most pathetic oversimplification i think i've ever seen

its nice how you to try take the scenario and put it in a bubble where none of the past has occurred

When Hamas can't kill Jews, it's perfectly happy to heard Palestinian civilians into the line of fire to gain Western sympathy as the headline-greedy media cheer them on.. Sorry that is just evil and wrong.

QFT

When palestinian civilians die, hamas wins. It's call propaganda boys and girls. Simpletons jump on the anti-Isreal bandwagon and ignore the true blood is on Palestinian hands.

The REAL story that's being ignored is the palestians are responsible for civilian casualties and should be charged with the war crimes like these. This is what happens when you use civilians has human shields.

Sleazy: there is no excuse for this murder. This had nothing to do with human shields, it appears. It takes someone very sick to just blame the victim here.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Zebo
I try to find fault with Israeli but I can't.

I know people who can't find fault in the US either.

You know what we call them?

 

[ZzZGuy]

Ok, what is your answer to human shields bearing in mind that it can not be allowed to become a [more] useful and accepted tactic.

If you deny hamas are using human shields, please provide evidence or even a denial from hamas. If you mention the high percentage of children killed, please provide reliable info (beyond one or two cases and/or without verification), though I doubt there will be any for a month or two.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: palehorse
Sad that.

I'll personally never forgive Hamas for the evil they have wrought on their own people.

Do you also blame the US government for the 9/11 deaths?

We were not hiding under the skirts of our women and amongst the toys of our children when 19 terrorists hit us below the belt on 9/11.

Hamas, an exceptionally violent group of terrorists, does so each and every day. Hamas thrives and depends on civilian casualties on both sides. Hamas intends for their own women and children to die in their eternal jihad against Israel and the West.

Comparing them to the US on 9/11 is one of the most ignorant things I've ever seen you write, and that's impressive, really...

 

[Freshgeardude]

I truely feel sorry for this guy. He is a good Palestinian and his family had to die. he should be rewarded by Israel, and you can quote me on that. unfortuneatly, its a war and stuff like this will happen.


secondly, "Eyewitnesses denied Israeli claims of sniper fire in the area. " snipers can be quite from what I understand, ontop of other fire coming in the area it could have been mistaken for the sniper fire.