PA/Sound/Studio people......help with my compressor

[Lithium381]

Okay, so ive got this compressor, and it's got all these cool blinky light thingys and looks really really neat, but i dont' have much of a clue what to do to get the best sound....i understand the basics and such, but how to use them in practice.....suggestions?

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Lithium381
Okay, so ive got this compressor, and it's got all these cool blinky light thingys and looks really really neat, but i dont' have much of a clue what to do to get the best sound....i understand the basics and such, but how to use them in practice.....suggestions?

What are you wanting to compress / Limit?
<The lights, they are nice , no? :light:

 

[Lithium381]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Lithium381
Okay, so ive got this compressor, and it's got all these cool blinky light thingys and looks really really neat, but i dont' have much of a clue what to do to get the best sound....i understand the basics and such, but how to use them in practice.....suggestions?

What are you wanting to compress / Limit?
<The lights, they are nice , no? :light:

serious huh, the lights kick @$$, there are so many of them and they blink too, i love that!


well, we've got vocals, and drums, which are the first things that come to mind that i'd like to do something with, or not so much they need compression, i just heard that you get a slightly better sound using a compressor with these instruments....also it has been said they are good for mastering, as they help you raise the average program level

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Lithium381

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Lithium381
Okay, so ive got this compressor, and it's got all these cool blinky light thingys and looks really really neat, but i dont' have much of a clue what to do to get the best sound....i understand the basics and such, but how to use them in practice.....suggestions?

What are you wanting to compress / Limit?
<The lights, they are nice , no? :light:

serious huh, the lights kick @$$, there are so many of them and they blink too, i love that!


well, we've got vocals, and drums, which are the first things that come to mind that i'd like to do something with, or not so much they need compression, i just heard that you get a slightly better sound using a compressor with these instruments....also it has been said they are good for mastering, as they help you raise the average program level

OK, you are talking about real source, not recorded , material.
Just wanted to make sure I didn't have some DJ trying to "get Louder"....
Anyway, use the meter selector switch to help you set it up.
The threshold is where the device engages on a vocal, you may want to just limit peaks. That would be a ratio of say 6:1 or greater up to infinity :1. You would adjust the output control to bring back the "level" that may be needed to sound right. By selecting between the input and amount of Gain Reduction on the meter, you can set a limiting action that just takes off the real heavy peaks. You watch the "ballistics" of the input and then switch the meter and adjust the amount of gain reduction until you pull about 3-5 db typically. More may sound funny, less may not be enough.
If a more gentle compressed sound is what you're going for, then a ratio less than 5:1 is what we're talking about. Again, by adjusting the threshold and watching the meter while in Amount of Gain Reduction you will get an idea of what different ratios sound like.
Don't be afraid to mess with the output gain in order to make up signal. Be careful, a compressor / Limiter is an amplifier and it is possible to severely overdrive the next device after the compressor (recorder/ mixer/ PA) by too much output.
Also a favorite technique is to mix the compressed signal back in as a seperate source. Adds "punch" while leaving lower levels up in the mix more.
Different compressors sound different.
Old dBx ones used a discrete VCA module potted in epoxy. Old UREI's used a light and Photocell. I have an old ALTEC that sounds GREAT on Electric Guitars and Bass. It has Point to Point wiring and discrete Transisitors.
Which brand /Model do you have?

Drums, I would use it to take the peaks off the kick, so as to allow the PA system to work mor efficiently.
Recording, I would compress the drums in a stereo mix and mis that back as another pair of channels.
Guitars and Bass may get some squeeze depending on the player/part. Bass, always as another channel mixed in. I used to just put the comp in line, but didn't get as much "pop" from the signal as I do when I dual channel it.
Overall, I would try to avoid any stereo Buss compressing. It reallly sounds cool for a bout 20 minutes, then you get used to it and you start with the gradual march upwards into clipping. The "good" compression tends to come in at Mastering anyway. Exact multi band compressing is what is done there.
Squeezing just 1.5k to 5khz to keep that vocal from tearing your head off, as an example.
Mastering guys HATE it when everything is MASHED into a single level source.
It doesn't let them do their job as well. They can do wonders with EQ when there is some variance in the level to work with.
HTH,
pics?

 

[yellowperil]

IMO, best way would be to record everything first, do a rough mix, and then experiment with the compressor. It is better to record everything dry so you can always undo something you did with the effects. The only reason I would use a compressor during recording is as a peak limiter, i.e. to prevent clipping/distortion. To do this set the threshold at a few dBs below 0, and set the ratio very high (I don't know what works, maybe 20:1).

Later on after you have everything recorded, and set the levels and panned the tracks the way you like, then add compression to only the tracks that need it. Usually the drum tracks are compressed, and so is the bass, to make them sound smoother and more 'polished'. If you have a good singer who can handle his/her dynamics then a compressor on the vocals is not necessary. If the singer sucks then compression (plus some reverb/delay) can only help. Acoustic guitar benefits from compression if it's in a full mix. I probably wouldn't post-compress electric guitar, esp. with distortion, because the distortion already puts a compression effect on it.

Also compression tends to remove treble, so you may want to get an EQ unit to adjust for that.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: yellowperil
IMO, best way would be to record everything first, do a rough mix, and then experiment with the compressor. It is better to record everything dry so you can always undo something you did with the effects. The only reason I would use a compressor during recording is as a peak limiter, i.e. to prevent clipping/distortion. To do this set the threshold at a few dBs below 0, and set the ratio very high (I don't know what works, maybe 20:1).

Later on after you have everything recorded, and set the levels and panned the tracks the way you like, then add compression to only the tracks that need it. Usually the drum tracks are compressed, and so is the bass, to make them sound smoother and more 'polished'. If you have a good singer who can handle his/her dynamics then a compressor on the vocals is not necessary. If the singer sucks then compression (plus some reverb/delay) can only help. Acoustic guitar benefits from compression if it's in a full mix. I probably wouldn't post-compress electric guitar, esp. with distortion, because the distortion already puts a compression effect on it.

Also compression tends to remove treble, so you may want to get an EQ unit to adjust for that.

Compressor = Dynamic Gain Controlling amplifier used below 6:1 ratios
Limiter = Dynamic Gain Controlling amplifier above 6:1 ratios
The loss of treble is oten simply resolved by turning the output level control "up" a little.
EQ's can be inserted into the "sidechain" jacks for a desired effect. as well.
RTFM is very important with each device.
Although it shares similar model numbers, LA-22, with it's predecessor LA-2A , one is as different from the other as a Piper Cub is from an AirBus.

Re: Vocals and compression, If you're trying to track a "breathy", up close, track without overmodulating, you'll be using a compressor set for fast attack, slow release with hard compressing (5-7 db) on signal.
MOST vocalists CANNOT control their dynamics and as such, dynamics controlling will be necessary.
This is especially true if you're doing a live show. I am assuming we are talking about recording in this thread.
For a thick layered "metal" guitar, a medium compresssed track will push the level up in the mix., esp. if done during tracking. I prefer to have that track already compressed , so I don't have to deal with it in mixing.
Too many options at mixing isn't such a good thing either.
There are many instances to use a compressor on tracking, I suggest taking a peek in the archives over at prosoundweb.com, in the recpit and seeing what real world (with jobs) pros do regarding that.....
Want a room sound? ala GreenDAY / Rancid? :music:
Use a room mic against a reflective surface over 15 feet away with HARD compression on that mic. Add to tracks, season and simmer....Volia, serves 8 .....
Compression and limiting can be either an effect (Breathy Vocal ) or an extra hand ( in Limiter mode to prevent overmodulation/ clipping etc.)
Experiment before deciding if something isn't going to work.
Oftentimes, what looks ridiculous on one hand, sounds brilliant.
In Other Words... There are no rules.



The ProSoundWeb.com RECPIT Forum Index....

Bob Buontempo's Forum may be a good place to start. MIXERMAN and Fletcher's are only for the very brave.....

 

[yellowperil]

Hmm, I have to disagree about the "too many options at mixing" part. The big advantage to recording dry and adding effects later, rather than adding effects on the way in, is that you can undo it later. Most of the compressing/EQ'ing should be done with the entire mix in front of you, not with individual tracks (sort of a Gestalt approach). Instruments by themselves sound very different than in a mix; what sounds good in isolation might sound like crap in a mix, and vice versa. You have overlapping frequencies and some instruments bury others and can make it sound muddy. I'm sure there are engineers/producers who have been mixing a long time and know how a mix is going to turn out ahead of time, but I think for most people in home recording the dry record/effects at mixdown is the way to go.

Of course, it's all up to taste and what works and sounds good for you. JMO on above.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: yellowperil
Hmm, I have to disagree about the "too many options at mixing" part. The big advantage to recording dry and adding effects later, rather than adding effects on the way in, is that you can undo it later. Most of the compressing/EQ'ing should be done with the entire mix in front of you, not with individual tracks (sort of a Gestalt approach). Instruments by themselves sound very different than in a mix; what sounds good in isolation might sound like crap in a mix, and vice versa. You have overlapping frequencies and some instruments bury others and can make it sound muddy. I'm sure there are engineers/producers who have been mixing a long time and know how a mix is going to turn out ahead of time, but I think for most people in home recording the dry record/effects at mixdown is the way to go.

Of course, it's all up to taste and what works and sounds good for you. JMO on above.

What I am trying to illustrate is that usually you have some idea of what the song is going to sound like, BEFORE it actually exists. And as such, what we are really doing is filling in the outline that we have in our minds "ear".
So if you're going to add say tremolo to a rythym track, and it'll be played that way subsequently, it may be "better" to play and record it that way so the track is "there" and more attention can be paid to other facets of the mix.
I have done recordings in both of the ways we are talking about here and have pressed both. Neither is "wrong" in strictly black or white terms, I think it really depends on the song and what you're trying to capture. Some songs "work better" one way as opposed to the other.
My other intent is to emphasizs NOT getting locked into a "set" way of recording.
Rather than imposing a technological template over an artistic endeavor, I try to use the technology to capture the finest moment and let that carry itself.
Some days Live to 2 track Analog, other days 48+ tracks Digital, yet others 24 track Analog/OLD school,
Whatever.... It's not about the gear, it's about the song and the moment.
Thus while acknowledging the theorum you have postulated, I am suggesting an alternative which has it's own merits as well.
I also propose that in general, rough mixes tend to more accurately reflect the song as rough mixes tend to capture facets which often get polished away in the final mix process.
IN short, Follow the rules, but remember that Rules are meant to be Broken..... The Rules are Dead, Long Live The Rules!

And above all, if it's not fun, It's really work.

 

[Lithium381]

Well, what we've got going is recording, we've got an acoustic guitar that we're micing, a couple electrics, a bass, drums, and vocals. We're running this down to an 8-track....which is later going to be mixed down to stereo so we can put it all on a cd. We haven't recorded the drum tracks yet(we're giving it two so we get stereo) and we're planning on using three mics with it, and mixing it down using a small mixer....bass drum centered, toms/cymbals pan right and snare and hihat pan left....leaving it with two channels. I read the manual last night, and understand the basics, but i'm sure the desired sound can only be acheived through much much much trial and error.....since this is my first time using a compressor.

Any comments on using it for mastering and final mixdown?
thanks for all of your comments so far!

 

[spidey07]

But why would you want to limit dynamic range anyway? Why sap the realism out of the music?

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: spidey07
But why would you want to limit dynamic range anyway? Why sap the realism out of the music?

In the old days, excessive level could cause the needle to jump out of the groove.
Then came tape (Cassettes and 8tracks) and the problem was trying to overcome the inhereant noise (hiss), so , packing more level helped the signal to noise ratio.
In general, LOUDER is BETTER, in the broadcast world , anyway, so Dynamic Range has already been compromised.
IN the Recording stages and in Live sound, there may be times when a particular vocalist or instrument has a greater Dynamic Range than the electronics are capable of handling. Thus when they are at their softest, in order to be audible, clipping or overmodulation distortion may occur at the loudest levels. Thus, we engineers want a device that can act as an "extra hand" in turning down that level to preven the audible effects of excessive level.
Wecome the Gain Leveling Amplifier aka The Compressor / Limiter.
Basically a device that as the signal exceeds the Threshold after a specified time Attack, the device reduces the signal level by a specified amount RATIO for a specified duration RELEASE with an accompanying control to make up "perceived" loss of signal Output.
This output control can be used to drive long lengths of wire so as to make up for line losses.
They were most often found in POTS Phone buildings so as to let Grandma hear you clear across the country, and in radio studios to level the "swing" (Modulation of Signal) so as to maximize the transmitted signal. They use "Multi Band Compressors". Ones that divide the signal into various Bands 'High, Mid, MidLow, Low" so as to maximize the RF Amp Power at the antenna.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Lithium381
Well, what we've got going is recording, we've got an acoustic guitar that we're micing, a couple electrics, a bass, drums, and vocals. We're running this down to an 8-track....which is later going to be mixed down to stereo so we can put it all on a cd. We haven't recorded the drum tracks yet(we're giving it two so we get stereo) and we're planning on using three mics with it, and mixing it down using a small mixer....bass drum centered, toms/cymbals pan right and snare and hihat pan left....leaving it with two channels. I read the manual last night, and understand the basics, but i'm sure the desired sound can only be acheived through much much much trial and error.....since this is my first time using a compressor.

Any comments on using it for mastering and final mixdown?
thanks for all of your comments so far!

I would run it as a little squeeze (Compressing) about 2-3 dbs worth, set real slow, so as to increase overall level.
Try burning a couple of test tracks with and without, in various ratios. LISTEN. Go with what sounds good after a couple of days with living with it.
If the drum tracks cause too much "swing" in the average signal, I might compress them a bit, after tracking.
Bass I would limit during tracking to keep the level "up".
When doing stereo compressing, you MAY NOT WANT THEM to KEY OFF OF JUST THE LEFT one. This is where reading the manual will be necessary. Some use the signal present on the "left" channel to key both into operation.
This may not be what you need.
Maybe the trigger should be the right, must be careful there.
Use your ears....

 

[AlienCraft]

What Brand /Model do you have?

 

[Lithium381]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
What Brand /Model do you have?

I'm using the Berengher Autocom 1400mx(i think that's it!)

it does stereo with the channels seperate, or i can key it off of the left(or right if i switch 'eM)

 

[yellowperil]

Originally posted by: Lithium381

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
What Brand /Model do you have?

I'm using the Berengher Autocom 1400mx(i think that's it!)

it does stereo with the channels seperate, or i can key it off of the left(or right if i switch 'eM)

That's the one I had. I sold it after I switched to plugins but it's a pretty good unit. There's an enhancer knob or something that makes vocals sound a little better. And all them lights are purty.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Lithium381

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
What Brand /Model do you have?

I'm using the Berengher Autocom 1400mx(i think that's it!)

it does stereo with the channels seperate, or i can key it off of the left(or right if i switch 'eM)

I've got the Composer-Pro's, UREI LA-3a, dbx 16x, an OLD Altec and......
A Valley People Dyna-mite Pair!. These are a full Dynamics controller package, Expander/Compressor/ Gate.
Very cool piece.
<Likes the "Full Package"..... ..... wait......:disgust: